Big trade or fire the coach first?

[surixon]

Good post, ps.

I'm not sure I share your optimism that our pp will get measurably better. The problem I have is we don't seem to have a true pp qb, and a triggerman on the pp right now. Toby would be our best qb, but we don't have a 2nd unit qb. Maybe that's why Toby and Buff play 1:45 of every 2 min pp. When given the puck, Buff is shooting - from wherever. Why he doesn't distribute the puck better (like on Toby's game tying goal vs Blues), I'll never know. When Kane gets the puck he's shooting. Doesn't matter where he is on the ice.

So, I'd love to see the Jets have a guy, like Petan as ps mentioned, who can work the 1/2 board and distribute the puck effectively. We do not have that player right now, imo. It's not Little (questionable puck/passing skills), or Wheeler (staying still is not his strength) or Olli (question his hockey sense, period). Might be Scheif one day, but not now. I, too, like Troubs and Morrissey on the pp. They move the puck effectively and can shoot when the opportunity arises.

If I see Buff blast from the point, wide, or right into the goalie - with no traffic in the goalies vision - I'm going to throw something at my tv.

We have no idea if he's ready for such a role as the team has never tried him in it, all they have done with him on the pp is have him set up in front of the net which imo is a poor use of his talents.

 

[peg]

Within the next couple of years without any trades:

Kane Petan Wheeler
Ladd Schiefele Little
Frolik Lowry Lodge
Tangradi Slater Peluso

Morrissey Bogosian
Trouba Byfuglien
Enstrom Redmond

Pavelec
Comrie

We already have a good solid but underperforming core.

Our lineup will be the above or better without trading away any of the core.

Fire the coach.

 

[Whileee]

Within the next couple of years without any trades:

Kane Petan Wheeler
Ladd Schiefele Little
Frolik Lowry Lodge
Tangradi Slater Peluso

Morrissey Bogosian
Trouba Byfuglien
Enstrom Redmond

Pavelec
Comrie

We already have a good solid but underperforming core.

Our lineup will be the above or better without trading away any of the core.

Fire the coach.

That is a pretty optimistic scenario. You have three new guys in the top 9 forwards that still need to develop substantially. A couple (Lodge and Petan) are on the smaller size, and might not be able to make an impact at the NHL level within a couple of years.

 

[PegCityPuck]

I still remember the time-out by Claude in the home opener vs LA when were up 4 - 1. I think he tries to get us to play the trap or something. LA scored twice immediately following the timeout to make it 4 - 3. Thank god we got an empty netter so my bet payed There are so many things about Noel that make me scratch my head. This is just one of them that stands out.

 

[Aries56]

Teams need the right coaching to get the confidence and motivation to go out there and play hard every night. My best example is the Avalanche. Their core didn't change that much, but their coaching did. Now they're 10-1 after finishing second last in the league.

If it were up to Noel, he would sit every player except James Wright. No wonder we have offensive trouble. The sooner Noel is gone, the sooner the Jets can get back on track.

 

[Grind]

Within the next couple of years without any trades:

Kane Petan Wheeler
Ladd Schiefele Little
Frolik Lowry Lodge
Tangradi Slater Peluso

Morrissey Bogosian
Trouba Byfuglien
Enstrom Redmond

Pavelec
Comrie

We already have a good solid but underperforming core.

Our lineup will be the above or better without trading away any of the core.

Fire the coach.

So from one draft, with only 1 1st round pick, we get,

1 all star d man (Morrisey)
1 first line center (petan)
1 Third line right wing
1 Back up goaltender


I'm sorry but that's a little too optimistic. At bare minimum, one of Petan, Comrie, Morrisey, or Lodge will not work out. I mean it COULD happen, but your taking a very longshot gamble with that prediction.

 

[Huffer]

We have no idea if he's ready for such a role as the team has never tried him in it, all they have done with him on the pp is have him set up in front of the net which imo is a poor use of his talents.

Lawless made a point yesterday where he said he was talking to a "league source" about the Jets PP.

He said that the league source questioned why the Jets wouldn't use Scheifele or Wheeler on the half wall, as they have the best vision on the team.

 

[Channelcat]

Teams need the right coaching to get the confidence and motivation to go out there and play hard every night. My best example is the Avalanche. Their core didn't change that much, but their coaching did. Now they're 10-1 after finishing second last in the league.

If it were up to Noel, he would sit every player except James Wright. No wonder we have offensive trouble. The sooner Noel is gone, the sooner the Jets can get back on track.

This. I know calling people names just discredits yourself.......but Claude is a buffoon.

 

[Unholy goalie]

Teams need the right coaching to get the confidence and motivation to go out there and play hard every night. My best example is the Avalanche. Their core didn't change that much, but their coaching did. Now they're 10-1 after finishing second last in the league.

If it were up to Noel, he would sit every player except James Wright. No wonder we have offensive trouble. The sooner Noel is gone, the sooner the Jets can get back on track.

But it did change, and that's the point. Roy isn't coaching the same Avs. Now, we could argue over whether the change was negligible enough for it to be a fair comparison, but right away (in my mind) the additions of Tanguay and Sarich are enough to say that this is a meaningfully different team. That first overall pick didn't hurt either No doubt Roy is a difference maker, but how much is tough to say.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think a trade AND coaching change need to happen, but it is more likely (given the performance of the players) that TSNE will make a roster move before a coaching move.

 

[Analyst365]

I still remember the time-out by Claude in the home opener vs LA when were up 4 - 1. I think he tries to get us to play the trap or something. LA scored twice immediately following the timeout to make it 4 - 3. Thank god we got an empty netter so my bet payed There are so many things about Noel that make me scratch my head. This is just one of them that stands out.

No doubt you will be left scratching your head if you just make baseless assumptions about what Noel is doing and assume the worst ...

 

[PegCityPuck]

No doubt you will be left scratching your head if you just make baseless assumptions about what Noel is doing and assume the worst ...

His timeout almost cost us the game. The timeout caused a dramatic momentum shift in LA's favor. He doesn't appear to have a very good 'feel' for his players or the game for that matter and this is just one very small example.

Is your response purely ad hominem or do you have something of substance to share?

 

[Puckschmuck*]

Tried and true "Winnipeg-style".

The old Winnipegger attitude

WTF are comments like this supposed to mean? Why do some people feel it necessary to take pot-shots at the city and the people that live there? I'm a Winnipegger and I don't agree with you, in fact I take offence to your comments that people in this city aren't intelligent and can't make wise decisions, as you are essentially saying.

You want to comment on the judgement of the management and coaching of this team? No problem, that is what these boards are for. But leave the rest of us out of it, thanks

 

[GoldenJet89]

We just spent a lot of money locking up this core.

You have to give them a chance to prove their worth before making a big shakeup.

Give the group another shot with a new coach that has a different style. If we still cant figure it out then we can start making bigger moves

 

[jetkarma*]

Lawless made a point yesterday where he said he was talking to a "league source" about the Jets PP.

He said that the league source questioned why the Jets wouldn't use Scheifele or Wheeler on the half wall, as they have the best vision on the team.

IMO they should give Scheifele a fair shot on the PP. He has the vision and passing skills that others on the PP don't. It could also boost his confidence by getting him some points . Plus he has a great shot.

I have said for 2 years the Jets don't have a great passer which is affecting the PP , it's broke , so .... try to fix it. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results ... well we all know Einstein said about that.

 

[winterpeg]

Can we stop pretending that firing Noel after he's in his 3rd year as the coach of this team is a knee-jerk reaction?

The performances we've seen don't match what I believe are the talent levels of our players, and Pavelec plays the second night of back to back way to bloody often.

Sorry, Noel. Time to go.

 

[gfnd]

Winnipeg fans and many of those on these boards tend to over value players. I remember ppl saying hainsey was worth 1/2 rd picks which was laughable. The only true superstar is Kane. A distant second would be Ladd and trouba-bogo are in the category. Otherwise, buff and enstrom would be more valuable as forwards. Contracts will become a trade barrier for the gm. But first is first, noel should have been fired last year. The gm will be next in line. He has done very little to change the team or culture. One poster mentioned this - chipman is the pres of hockey ops, which is a huge mistake and should be remedied sooner than later. This front office shuffle should be done b4 shuffling assets.

 

[Mathmew Purrrr Oh]

hmm I don't think Toby would even be AHL fodder as a forward

 

[Rook37]

Winnipeg fans and many of those on these boards tend to over value players. I remember ppl saying hainsey was worth 1/2 rd picks which was laughable

You think that's funny? there was one guy who seriously thought Buff and Enstrom would both be better as forwards

 

[JetsTrueNorth]

I hate to break it to all the "Noel Haters" out there, but our top 6 forwards don't scare even the weakest opponents. (This is a management issue and not coaching). For the record, most of these non threatening forwards have been signed to over inflated deals by our management.

We've needed scoring help for all three seasons and the best Chevy has done is what? Fehr?, Ponikarovsky?, Jokinen?, Frolik?, Setoguchi? NOT GOOD ENOUGH CHEVY!

There's a deal out there that will help this team, but the question is if Chevy is willing to make it.

 

[StronGeer]

I hate to break it to all the "Noel Haters" out there, but our top 6 forwards don't scare even the weakest opponents. (This is a management issue and not coaching). For the record, most of these non threatening forwards have been signed to over inflated deals by our management.

We've needed scoring help for all three seasons and the best Chevy has done is what? Fehr?, Ponikarovsky?, Jokinen?, Frolik?, Setoguchi? NOT GOOD ENOUGH CHEVY!

There's a deal out there that will help this team, but the question is if Chevy is willing to make it.

Would you rather he paid to get Vanek for one year and then had him leave as UFA? Making the statement that "the trade is out there" is ridiculous. If there was a team willing to sell low on an offensive talent, there would be 29 offers on his desk, and the deal would get done.

But that deal doesn't exist.

Also, most of Chevys moves were touted as good to great when he made them. Fehr had a hard time coming back from injury so we let him go. Jokinen reaaaallllly slumped last year but has been playing better this year. Frolik came from the cup winner (for effectively nothing) and has been playing well, albeit defensive. Poni was a free agent signing that got us a pick when he didn't work out. And Seto has had a few flashes of brilliance and a couple nice bounces tonight and he's got two in the net. What's more interesting is why it seems that good players come here and then instantly become worse. Coaching perhaps?

 

[PaperRockChamp]

I hate to break it to all the "Noel Haters" out there, but our top 6 forwards don't scare even the weakest opponents. (This is a management issue and not coaching). For the record, most of these non threatening forwards have been signed to over inflated deals by our management.

We've needed scoring help for all three seasons and the best Chevy has done is what? Fehr?, Ponikarovsky?, Jokinen?, Frolik?, Setoguchi? NOT GOOD ENOUGH CHEVY!

There's a deal out there that will help this team, but the question is if Chevy is willing to make it.

It's clear you have no idea what kind of team you think you're cheering for.

 

[Whileee]

Winnipeg fans and many of those on these boards tend to over value players. I remember ppl saying hainsey was worth 1/2 rd picks which was laughable. The only true superstar is Kane. A distant second would be Ladd and trouba-bogo are in the category. Otherwise, buff and enstrom would be more valuable as forwards. Contracts will become a trade barrier for the gm. But first is first, noel should have been fired last year. The gm will be next in line. He has done very little to change the team or culture. One poster mentioned this - chipman is the pres of hockey ops, which is a huge mistake and should be remedied sooner than later. This front office shuffle should be done b4 shuffling assets.

I think Chevy did exactly what he had to do with the signing of Little, Wheeler and Bogo in the off-season. Little is playing at least to his contract, or better. Wheeler has been slow to start, but it would have been foolish for Chevy not to try to lock up his top scorer with so little depth in the organization in the skill department. Bogo was coming off an excellent season during which he showed signs of becoming a franchise leader. I think that each and every one of the Jets core would find considerable interest on the trade market, and the long contracts are likely a bonus for many trade partners since they are locked up into some of their UFA years.

The trades for Frolik and Seto were probably good value (at least for Frolik). Seto is coming around. By all accounts, his drafting has been excellent, with one bona-fide star in the making already in the fold.

As a collection, this is probably still a middle-of-the-pack team, with the 18th highest payroll, which is inflated a bit because they have just signed a chunk of their core to long-term contracts. I still think they need another top-6 forward and solid top 4-5 D, and more consistent goaltending to contend. They might need a coach that is able to develop a style that suits this group, but that is a bit difficult to know in the short term.

I just hope Chevy now stays patient and buys low and sells high, with an eye to picking up good young assets. I hope he finds something to do with Burmi - either getting him back or getting a decent prospect or pick for him.

 

[Positive]

Can we stop pretending that firing Noel after he's in his 3rd year as the coach of this team is a knee-jerk reaction?

The performances we've seen don't match what I believe are the talent levels of our players, and Pavelec plays the second night of back to back way to bloody often.

Sorry, Noel. Time to go.

It may not be a 'knee jerk' reaction, but it's the easiest answer to blurt out when people don't really know what's wrong with the team.

Not to say you're one of these people. But with fans of any sport, the ones that don't have a solid grasp of the game tend to say 'fire the coach!' more than anything else as their solution when the team doesn't have winning record. It's the cheap, 'catch-all' problem solver.

There are some here that have an truly excellent grasp, some that are just ok (me, I'd say) and some...casual fans with a loud voice. In any case I think closer looks are needed. There's a risk of misdiagnosing the problem, or replacing a problem with another problem, and a man just lost his job.

And yeah we overrate our players and become emotionally attached to them. If we had gotten the Coyotes instead of the Thrashers, we'd be all high on Shane Doan, and what a warrior he is, and how Ekman-Larsson is underrated, one of the best in the league and the future of the franchise, etc. We identify with players more than we do management and coaches. It's what fans do. I think we have to become less attached to our players and more attached to the entity that is the franchise. No one is untouchable. This is the business. Not even my man Ladd over to the left. In 8 years or so none of these players will still be around. But TNSE will (cross fingers) still be running the show, Chevy may still be GM, and we should still be fans.

Noel is definitely under the gun right now, but calling for firings last year, or 10 games into the season, was premature IMHO. My guess is that by November 30th or so, if the team is still < .500 something will happen. Depending on how under they are. If they remain on the bubble we may see a piece acquired. If they are deep in the woods then yeah I can see a coaching change.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Would you rather he paid to get Vanek for one year and then had him leave as UFA? Making the statement that "the trade is out there" is ridiculous. If there was a team willing to sell low on an offensive talent, there would be 29 offers on his desk, and the deal would get done.

But that deal doesn't exist.

Also, most of Chevys moves were touted as good to great when he made them. Fehr had a hard time coming back from injury so we let him go. Jokinen reaaaallllly slumped last year but has been playing better this year. Frolik came from the cup winner (for effectively nothing) and has been playing well, albeit defensive. Poni was a free agent signing that got us a pick when he didn't work out. And Seto has had a few flashes of brilliance and a couple nice bounces tonight and he's got two in the net. What's more interesting is why it seems that good players come here and then instantly become worse. Coaching perhaps?

This post and the Chevy defending / Noel hating is nonsense. First off, Chevy hired Noel and then he extended him. The "Noel wasn't Chevy's first choice" meme means that either:

- Chevy is an impotent puppet, and that decision making on the fundamental issues like coaching are being made by Chipman from his secret office at Birchwood Honda; OR
- Chevy WANTED to hire someone else like Haviland but didn't because he didn't want to upset ownership

So which is it? And how long are we going to keep defending Chevy around here? Outside of WPG, GMs don't get judged on intentions, they get judged on results. If Jokinen and Pavelec were on the Flyers / Rangers / Habs / Leafs / Bruins - they'd have been bought out already.

Chevy's brought in Mitts, Wellwood, Fehr, Jones, Frolik, Wright, Maclean, Santorelli, Peluso, Ponikorovsky, Clitsome, Setogouchi, Pardy.

And we give him guy an extension with 3 years left on his contract but want to fire the coach, whose been saddled with Grant Clitsome in his top 4 and perhaps the worst goaltending in the league? OK then.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

I really REALLY don't get the Chevy hate. I can at least see where people who want Noel gone are coming from but Chevy has done a good job so far.

This just screams to me that people are part of the "WHY DIDN'T WE TRADE 5 FIRST ROUND PICKS FOR VANEK!!!!!!!!" crowd.

All the people mentioned above that failed were on very short contracts. They were a stop gap essentially. This had a bare cupboard when it moved here. How are you supposed to start making blockbuster trades when you have nothing to send the other way?

As for Noel's extension. It was ONE year and it was what a lot of people (myself included) expected.

This is almost as bad as 90% of the callers into 1290.

"WE NEED TO FIRE THE GM BECAUSE HE DIDN'T DO **** ALL TO HELP THE TEAM!"

"Well what moves would you have made that you think he should have?"

"Well I don't know. I was thinking maybe about moving Seto to the 4th line."

"Right but who else can be brought in for the right price?"

"I dunno I had some names before but I forgot them"

THERE!

THAT'S THE CRAP WE ARE SPEWING AS FANS!

Disgusting!