Big trade or fire the coach first?

Prot

Registered User
Sep 21, 2011
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An indicator of a teams skill level is on the PP, the Jets have been dismal there since season 1 even with different PP coaches, different schemes it hasn't improved, personnel has remained relatively the same proving the majority of our forwards just aren't good enough.

To me a PP is system first, skill second.

To me we see 'raw' skill when Jets get to play a -wide open- game. As soon as the other team brings system to the table we flounder, or adapt. But not by design, or so it seems.

This team makes the play offs with a -good- coach. I firmly believe this.

To me the question is who do you get?

Honestly, I feel for Noel though. I truly do. It could be that what Noel is selling the team simply can't or won't buy into. We really can't know on this side of the fence.
 

BigZ65

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Feb 2, 2010
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I would be surprised if wheeler is moved. If he picks it up and plays better, he'll finish near where he's been in the past with this franchise (20+ gs, 60 pts. He'll have 'earned' his contract $, but the Jets likely wouldn't want to move him.

If he continues to struggle, good luck in trying to move that contract.

Buff has a lower hit, and provides a bit more upside offensively. He might be moved.

Right back to his draft, Wheeler is the guy with all the skill who can never quite put it all together to be even a good player night in, night out, and he's been that type of enigma right back to the Golden Gopher days. A 6'5 guy who can skate like that and has even decent hands will always have a team that thinks they can turn him into something special, even if he is invisible for long stretches each season. I think this off-season is a good time to move him in terms of getting value, his value won't get any higher, with the cap going up most teams will have room to add salary, in a couple years everyone will be back up to the cap. Also has a modified NTC.
 

BigZ65

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Feb 2, 2010
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Winnipeg
To me a PP is system first, skill second.

To me we see 'raw' skill when Jets get to play a -wide open- game. As soon as the other team brings system to the table we flounder, or adapt. But not by design, or so it seems.

This team makes the play offs with a -good- coach. I firmly believe this.

To me the question is who do you get?

Honestly, I feel for Noel though. I truly do. It could be that what Noel is selling the team simply can't or won't buy into. We really can't know on this side of the fence.

The problem is that our PP doesn't adjust. The umbrella was looking good for a few games, offense coming from the points in droves, opposing PK's adjusted and are covering the points almost body to body when the puck comes into the zone, and our strategy hasn't adjusted to that, even though we are operating 3 on 2 below the circles. You'd think professional hockey coaches would be able to X and O effectively to burn an overly aggressive PK like Colorado or Nashville played against us.
 

Bob E

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Aug 20, 2011
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Right back to his draft, Wheeler is the guy with all the skill who can never quite put it all together to be even a good player night in, night out, and he's been that type of enigma right back to the Golden Gopher days. A 6'5 guy who can skate like that and has even decent hands will always have a team that thinks they can turn him into something special, even if he is invisible for long stretches each season. I think this off-season is a good time to move him in terms of getting value, his value won't get any higher, with the cap going up most teams will have room to add salary, in a couple years everyone will be back up to the cap. Also has a modified NTC.

Maybe.

I just think that if he produces 'Wheeler-type' numbers, the Jets would likely want to keep him. If he doesn't, then why would a team want to aggressively go after him?

Its sorta like Stafford in Buffalo, to me. I'm sure the Sabres would love to move him, but don't want to give him away either. But how aggressive are teams in trying to get Stafford, and his contract term is reasonably short, now.

My belief is teams interested in Wheeler (if he's on the market this off-season because he's so inconsistent the Jets have lost patience and want to move him) may think, well, we'd be taking a chance on this guy, and if it doesn't work out, we're paying him a ton in cap $ and term. If I was the GM of that team, I'm not offering much for Wheeler.

So a move, I just don't see it, but I could be wrong.
 

Unholy goalie

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Jul 11, 2011
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Tough call here as both things likely need to happen before we see a major improvement. TSNE can't be happy, let alone satisfied, with how things are progressing and are likely feeling out both situations as we hear more trade rumours pop up and notice some of Noel's commentary (re: recognition of "consequences" if the team can't be motivated).

Which will happen first? I think it will be trade.

Say what you want about Noel's player usage or systems implementation (and there's plenty to say..), the fact of the matter is that there are a number of glaring execution errors that create some plausible deniability in terms of coaching mistakes. For example, we could discuss how the umbrella in our PP probably isn't the best choice, but there has been some really weak play on the half boards that continuously leads to cough ups, or bad passing from below the goal line that creates unnecessary board battles. These mistakes on behalf of the players means we can't definitively prove that the system/coaching is more to blame (though some really great arguments involving team comparisons are convincing enough for me).

Add to this that TSNE has no obligation to Noel after this season is over, and I don't think they're in a rush to make a coaching move. They are probably already giving themselves this season to properly figure out an alternative for next season, all the while feeling out the trade situation. The only way I see a coaching move happen before a trade is if the season runs out and Chevy wasn't able to find a proper trade parter or make a suitable deal that satisfies both parties. What is known right now is that a lot of teams are looking for better defenders and we have some to spare (though less now with injuries), making the chances of a big trade this year highly likely.
 

sipowicz

The thrill is gone
Mar 16, 2011
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To me a PP is system first, skill second.

To me we see 'raw' skill when Jets get to play a -wide open- game. As soon as the other team brings system to the table we flounder, or adapt. But not by design, or so it seems.

This team makes the play offs with a -good- coach. I firmly believe this.

To me the question is who do you get?

Honestly, I feel for Noel though. I truly do. It could be that what Noel is selling the team simply can't or won't buy into. We really can't know on this side of the fence.

I'll partly agree and disagree, sure you need a good system and one which accommodates the players YOU HAVE, on the flip side if your guys aren't skilled enough to make even basic plays (ours aren't) your sunk, I don't think it is a coincidence this team has struggled with the PP for so long.
 

surixon

Registered User
Jul 12, 2003
48,725
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Winnipeg
My issue with a big trade is who are we going to be able to move that will bring back more than we give up.

Guys like Ladd, Little and Wheeler given their trade clauses and contract statuses are at best going to be lateral moves.

For me I remove both Ladd and Little immediately from the potential trade list. Both work hard day in and day out and contribute when they aren't scoring. Good teams need guys like those two.

Wheeler is likely not going to bring much back at this point.

That leaves the one tradeble asset that could potentially bring back more for this team on Buff.

He's locked into a good contract and has performed at a high level over the last few. He plays a position of organizational strength at RD and has a very limited NTC.

If there going to trade someone its him. Here's the problem, we have been hammered with injuries at RD:

Trouba out.

Postma out long term

Redmond out.

Bongo not at 100%.

So can we really afford.to move him at this point.
 

Hobby Bull

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May 21, 2013
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Fire Noel, eh?

Sounds like the Bomber based management model. Tried and true "Winnipeg-style".

I'm with ya.
 

garret9

AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Mar 31, 2012
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To me a PP is system first, skill second.

To me we see 'raw' skill when Jets get to play a -wide open- game. As soon as the other team brings system to the table we flounder, or adapt. But not by design, or so it seems.

This team makes the play offs with a -good- coach. I firmly believe this.

To me the question is who do you get?

Honestly, I feel for Noel though. I truly do. It could be that what Noel is selling the team simply can't or won't buy into. We really can't know on this side of the fence.

Agreed.

There's a reason why when you look at PP scoring chances, players are grouped so tightly by team for 5v4, but so spread out when looking at 5v5. Skill helps you use the system but system dominates overall.

Examples:

* 8 of the top 15 for the 2011-13 combined in 5v4 scoring chances for per min are all San Jose Sharks.

* remove Datsyuk and Selanne and the top 20 is only players from 3 teams (SJS, PIT, VAN)
 

Blue Shakehead

because lol Jets
Mar 18, 2011
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Everyone knows that changing the coach is what is needed! Cause it's working so well in Edmonton.

1. Hire new flavour of the month coach
2. Convert team and media to veganism
3. Adopt Swarm defense
4. ?
5. profit*

* where profit means 3-8-2
 

Jesus Christ Horburn

Registered User
Aug 22, 2008
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IMO, assembling the players and adding key pieces is Chevy's job, and he's done a pretty good job of it so far (Ladd, Wheeler, Pavelec, Enstrom, Little, Kane and Bogosian re-signing, Jokinen signing as a UFA, trading for Setoguchi and Frolik, etc).

Homerism aside, this is a core of players that should be playing better than their record indicates. I think that responsibility falls on the coach.
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
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Mar 10, 2010
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Everyone knows that changing the coach is what is needed! Cause it's working so well in Edmonton.

1. Hire new flavour of the month coach
2. Convert team and media to veganism
3. Adopt Swarm defense
4. ?
5. profit*

* where profit means 3-8-2

Well if you can't fire the owner and the president and his wife are besties with the owner and his wife it somewhat limits the options for change.
 

Darth Handsome*

Guest
Our PP sucks because we don't work hard enough. That's all there is to it. We think going on the PP means we can relax for two minutes. We think we get to stand around and pass the puck around for a couple of shifts. Third season of this crap.
 

larmex99

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Jul 4, 2013
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Noel has to go, before we can assess the true problems.

That is why we are not GM's in the NHL. Do you really thing that Chevy has to fire his coach so he can better see what his options are? Or were you just kidding?
 

Stej

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Jul 28, 2006
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To anyone saying that we need to make a trade because we don't have enough talent, that's not how it works unless you want to mortgage a piece of the future (which I highly doubt Chevy would do). Trades will really only be effective as a shake-up or to address an area of weakness from an area of strength.

The pipe dream of magically adding talent by ripping off another GM is not realistic. There is just as much chance that we end up being the team that gets ripped off when the dust settles.

As for the OP, I'd probably rather fire Noel first, but only if Chevy does his due diligence and hires a suitable replacement (as other have already stated). If we do go the trade route, I'm on board with the Buff idea as a trade like that would achieve a shake-up and allow us to address weakness from strength.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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I would definitely not want to make a big trade to shake things up, or out of any sense of desperation. If they make a significant trade now it should be because they see an opportunity to take advantage of another team that is more desperate than the Jets (I'm looking at you Philly and NYR). As much as I'd love the Jets to make the playoffs this year, I realize that it was always going to be a struggle in this Conference, and with the way the Avs are looking it is going to be a really tough ask. So, unless Chevy has the opportunity to make a great trade (selling high and buying low), I think they should stick with this basic core for a while. If they are out of contention at the trade deadline, see what they can get in picks or prospects for Jokinen and Seto from a contender.

I'm a bit ambivalent about what to do with Noel. On one hand it's a bit difficult for me to see him as the long-term solution. I don't like how he seems to have a hard time sticking with lines, etc. whenever anything goes downhill for a game or a period or two. I also have concerns that he coaches as the underdog all the time. What I mean is that he is always talking about how they need to adjust to the opponent and the team hasn't really established an identify that forces the other team to counteract the Jets. Part of that is personnel, but I also think it's the characteristic of a coach that hasn't got the experience and demeanor to coach that way. I might be wrong about that. In any case, I don't see a huge hurry to move on from Noel. Again, I think that Chevy should be opportunistic. If he sees a really good coaching candidate available, then maybe he should look at moving on. If not, then what's the hurry to replace Noel with someone who will probably not be an upgrade.
 

Savagestevo

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Nov 29, 2011
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Last two days. Noels presser after the colorado game he essentailly said he didn't have the horses to run a power play

"we've got the same guys as last season. We were in last place last season and we're looking like...like we're not gonna do much better" was essentially the quote.

Did Chevy say they were looking to add some offensive spark? I didn't catch all of the H & L interview...

This is a dumb statement anyways though because a lot of teams would like to have guys like Enstrom and Byfuglien on their powerplay, it isn't the best in the league but there isn't any reason at all why it should be dead last. Noel is just trying to take the blame off himself and put it on the players, unless you put some generational talent on the powerplay it isn't going to improve very much at all.
 

Savagestevo

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
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0
Everyone knows that changing the coach is what is needed! Cause it's working so well in Edmonton.

1. Hire new flavour of the month coach
2. Convert team and media to veganism
3. Adopt Swarm defense
4. ?
5. profit*

* where profit means 3-8-2

Oilers fans seem to like Dallas Eakins, they are just getting AWFUL goaltending right now.

I really don't see either happening this season, but I'd have to guess that a Big Trade would be more likely to happen first since the Trade Deadline does exist, I don't see Noel back next season, but I think he will be finishing this one before he's let go.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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To anyone saying that we need to make a trade because we don't have enough talent, that's not how it works unless you want to mortgage a piece of the future (which I highly doubt Chevy would do). Trades will really only be effective as a shake-up or to address an area of weakness from an area of strength.

The pipe dream of magically adding talent by ripping off another GM is not realistic. There is just as much chance that we end up being the team that gets ripped off when the dust settles.

As for the OP, I'd probably rather fire Noel first, but only if Chevy does his due diligence and hires a suitable replacement (as other have already stated). If we do go the trade route, I'm on board with the Buff idea as a trade like that would achieve a shake-up and allow us to address weakness from strength.

Few trades are a real steal, but I think that GMs that don't panic and have the backing of their owners are more likely to get the edge in a deal than a GM that is worried about his job and has a narrow window to win (with an older core). I also think that GM's that consistently make the right kinds of trades at the right time come out ahead in the long run. I've said it before - trade vets at the deadline for picks and prospects and picks for players around the draft. Think about the Corey Scheider deal. Surely he would have gotten more than a single first round pick (even #10) if he was traded early in the season, or even after the draft. I wonder if the Canucks would have traded Schneider straight up for Bo Horvat now. The excitement of the draft always inflates the value of picks then.

It takes discipline and patience to pursue that sort of strategy, but I think that Chevy has shown that he's up to the task.
 

ps241

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Mar 10, 2010
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When it comes to our PP I have been a firm believer for a while that we do have the very good PP D man assets and we do have talented offensive players but they are much better 5v5 or even 4v4 than they are 5v4.

Kane is unreal 5 on 5 because he can beat you with speed and has a great shot.....he is even good on the attack after zone entry when there is kayos.....where he does not shine is when the D is stationary and he has time to think, the falloff is drastic. Dito for Wheels....when he can attack you at pace and he is "on" he is a beast but his talents are not uniquely structured for the PP. I do like Ladd on the PP because he gets in front of the net and screens the goalie however his puck retreival skills on the shoot in are a weakness of Andrews and that hurts. Also most of our guys best shot is the wrister on the fly (Ladd, Wheels, and Kane for sure). Seto and Scheif may be the only two guys I can think of that have that Ovi or Stamkos one timer in their bag and I do mean the light version of it.

We so badly need a guy like Petan to succeed one day because his skill set screams PP beast. I also believe Morrissey and Trouba think the game pretty well and could become a very effective back end for our PP.....same for Scheif at some point I see his skills transitioning well to the PP.

As for our forward group they are who they are.......allot of this comes down to bounces and PP's don't work until the moment they work and once they do then you get on a roll. Right now we are gripping our sticks a bit tight and that happens when you are in a funk. At the end of the season I think we will be a lower middle of the pack PP. We may not be great but we are not nearly as bad as we look right now.
 
Last edited:

Bob E

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Aug 20, 2011
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When it comes to our PP I have been a firm believer for a while that we do have the very good PP D man assets and we do have talented offensive players but they are much better 5v5 or even 4v4 than they are 5v4.

Kane is unreal 5 on 5 because he can beat you with speed and has a great shot.....he is even good on the attack after zone entry when there is kayos.....where he does not shine is when the D is stationary and he has time to think, the falloff is drastic. Dito for Wheels....when he can attack you at pace and he is "on" he is a beast but his talents are not uniquely structured for the PP. I do like Ladd on the PP because he gets in front of the net and screens the goalie however his puck retreival skills on the shoot in are a weakness of Andrews and that hurts. Also most of our guys best shot is the wrister on the fly (Ladd, Wheels, and Kane for sure). Seto and Scheif may be the only two guys I can think of that have that Ovi or Stamkos one timer in their bag and I do mean the light version of it.

We so badly need a guy like Petan to succeed one day because his skill set screams PP beast. I also believe Morrissey and Trouba think the game pretty well and could become a very effective back end for our PP.....same for Scheif at some point I see his skills transitioning well to the PP.

As for our forward group they are who they are.......allot of this comes down to bounces and PP's don't work until the moment they work and once they do then you get on a roll. Right now we are gripping our sticks a bit tight and that happens when you are in a funk. At the end of the season I think we will be a lower middle of the pack PP. We may not be great but we are not nearly as bad as we look right now.

Good post, ps.

I'm not sure I share your optimism that our pp will get measurably better. The problem I have is we don't seem to have a true pp qb, and a triggerman on the pp right now. Toby would be our best qb, but we don't have a 2nd unit qb. Maybe that's why Toby and Buff play 1:45 of every 2 min pp. When given the puck, Buff is shooting - from wherever. Why he doesn't distribute the puck better (like on Toby's game tying goal vs Blues), I'll never know. When Kane gets the puck he's shooting. Doesn't matter where he is on the ice.

So, I'd love to see the Jets have a guy, like Petan as ps mentioned, who can work the 1/2 board and distribute the puck effectively. We do not have that player right now, imo. It's not Little (questionable puck/passing skills), or Wheeler (staying still is not his strength) or Olli (question his hockey sense, period). Might be Scheif one day, but not now. I, too, like Troubs and Morrissey on the pp. They move the puck effectively and can shoot when the opportunity arises.

If I see Buff blast from the point, wide, or right into the goalie - with no traffic in the goalies vision - I'm going to throw something at my tv.
 

surixon

Registered User
Jul 12, 2003
48,725
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Winnipeg
When it comes to our PP I have been a firm believer for a while that we do have the very good PP D man assets and we do have talented offensive players but they are much better 5v5 or even 4v4 than they are 5v4.

Kane is unreal 5 on 5 because he can beat you with speed and has a great shot.....he is even good on the attack after zone entry when there is kayos.....where he does not shine is when the D is stationary and he has time to think, the falloff is drastic. Dito for Wheels....when he can attack you at pace and he is "on" he is a beast but his talents are not uniquely structured for the PP. I do like Ladd on the PP because he gets in front of the net and screens the goalie however his puck retreival skills on the shoot in are a weakness of Andrews and that hurts. Also most of our guys best shot is the wrister on the fly (Ladd, Wheels, and Kane for sure). Seto and Scheif may be the only two guys I can think of that have that Ovi or Stamkos one timer in their bag and I do mean the light version of it.

We so badly need a guy like Petan to succeed one day because his skill set screams PP beast. I also believe Morrissey and Trouba think the game pretty well and could become a very effective back end for our PP.....same for Scheif at some point I see his skills transitioning well to the PP.

As for our forward group they are who they are.......allot of this comes down to bounces and PP's don't work until the moment they work and once they do then you get on a roll. Right now we are gripping our sticks a bit tight and that happens when you are in a funk. At the end of the season I think we will be a lower middle of the pack PP. We may not be great but we are not nearly as bad as we look right now.


I agree to a point. I however maintain that we are not properly utilizing the assets that we currently have. For instance are 2nd unit is currently made up of 3 pure shooters down low, none of which is a particularly great puck mover so you see that unit run into trouble trying to establish possession. The top unit on the other hand seems to be able to establish possession but is only able to move it around the periphery. We don't have any down low set piece and quite frankly having both Wheeler and Little on the same pp is a bit redundant as you only need on distributor/garbage goal guy.

I maintain that we have the assets to have an average pp, maybe not elite but an average one. The problem is usage. First thing I would do is switch the units around:

Unit one:

Ladd plays his usual role as the net front screen.

Little plays down low and is there for rebounds and distributing the puck.

I switch Wheeler for Seto and have him positioned in around the circle giving Enstrom another one time/shot option.

It also opens up the down low play between Little and Seto.

In essence it goes from really only two dangerous shot options to potentially 4 in the new set up, which in turn will open things up as it isn't as easy for pk's to just defend the points.


Unit two:

Either Wheeler or Scheifele take the half boards as the puck mover.

Kane takes the net scree position and takes the slot on the opposite side.

The goal would be to utilize shots from all three sides.

Adding a puck mover in Scheifele or Wheeler would open these shots up much better than what we have right now.

That's just my two cents though.
 

Duke749

Savannah Ghost Pirates
Apr 6, 2010
47,776
22,662
Canton, Georgia
When it comes to our PP I have been a firm believer for a while that we do have the very good PP D man assets and we do have talented offensive players but they are much better 5v5 or even 4v4 than they are 5v4.

Kane is unreal 5 on 5 because he can beat you with speed and has a great shot.....he is even good on the attack after zone entry when there is kayos.....where he does not shine is when the D is stationary and he has time to think, the falloff is drastic. Dito for Wheels....when he can attack you at pace and he is "on" he is a beast but his talents are not uniquely structured for the PP. I do like Ladd on the PP because he gets in front of the net and screens the goalie however his puck retreival skills on the shoot in are a weakness of Andrews and that hurts. Also most of our guys best shot is the wrister on the fly (Ladd, Wheels, and Kane for sure). Seto and Scheif may be the only two guys I can think of that have that Ovi or Stamkos one timer in their bag and I do mean the light version of it.

We so badly need a guy like Petan to succeed one day because his skill set screams PP beast. I also believe Morrissey and Trouba think the game pretty well and could become a very effective back end for our PP.....same for Scheif at some point I see his skills transitioning well to the PP.

As for our forward group they are who they are.......allot of this comes down to bounces and PP's don't work until the moment they work and once they do then you get on a roll. Right now we are gripping our sticks a bit tight and that happens when you are in a funk. At the end of the season I think we will be a lower middle of the pack PP. We may not be great but we are not nearly as bad as we look right now.

Good post and I agree. Trouba and potentially Morrissey's emergence could certainly help our PP. Perhaps could allow Buff to move down low to give different looks(would honestly not surprise me with how many different looks we've been giving lately). I think Little is a solid PP player, but he's just one guy. He's a good trigger man in the slot. A big reason he scored 31 goals that year was because of that. Had 12 PPG that year. Closest since was 6. We're really lacking that high IQ forward on the PP. We got the D in Enstrom and potentially Trouba and Morrissey(agree with you how they think the game), we just need someone up front.
 

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