Big Byfuglien has surgery on ankle. Might get reimbursed if hockey related

[LadyStanley]

Announced Thursday that he underwent surgery last week. 4+ month recovery expected.

Could be interesting if determined it's a hockey injury

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[Ernie]

It does bring up some interesting questions.

What happens to a player who is injured but doesn't want a surgery to enable him to return to play? Is that medical decision his right to make? It would seem like Byfuglien was waffling on this and this is why he was flirting with retirement. But if he was injured, why would he not be on LTIR?

 

[mouser]

It does bring up some interesting questions.

What happens to a player who is injured but doesn't want a surgery to enable him to return to play? Is that medical decision his right to make? It would seem like Byfuglien was waffling on this and this is why he was flirting with retirement. But if he was injured, why would he not be on LTIR?

I haven’t seen any reports that the Jets wanted Byfuglien to have surgery? If you’re aware of any please share some links.

All the media articles I’ve seen so far suggest Byfuglien elected to have surgery without any consultation or coordination with the Jets team doctors.


Not reporting to training camp where the team Doctors would be expected to evaluate his fitness or unfitness to play adds another layer of complexity onto the situation.

 

[mouser]

.Could be interesting if determined it's a hockey injury

I have no doubt Buff’s ankle issue he chose to have surgery on is related to his hockey play.

The bigger BoH question in my opinion is how this sorts out with Byfuglien being in breach of his contract by not reporting to training camp.

 

[BrettHullsToe]

It does bring up some interesting questions.

What happens to a player who is injured but doesn't want a surgery to enable him to return to play? Is that medical decision his right to make? It would seem like Byfuglien was waffling on this and this is why he was flirting with retirement. But if he was injured, why would he not be on LTIR?

I think what may be happening here is actually the opposite situation - Buff wanted surgery because he's tired of dealing with the nagging pain, but the team doctors say he can play through it (maybe with cortisone shots) and get the surgery next summer.

So, an interesting question for the NHLPA to ponder is if it's ok to have pain relieving surgery and go on LTIR rather than play through it, even when the team doctors say that you can play for now. What's the threshold of pain have to be before you qualify for surgery yet can still earn your contract money?

 

[cowboy82nd]

I think what may be happening here is actually the opposite situation - Buff wanted surgery because he's tired of dealing with the nagging pain, but the team doctors say he can play through it (maybe with cortisone shots) and get the surgery next summer.

So, an interesting question for the NHLPA to ponder is if it's ok to have pain relieving surgery and go on LTIR rather than play through it, even when the team doctors say that you can play for now. What's the threshold of pain have to be before you qualify for surgery yet can still earn your contract money?

Interesting take on the situation. Never thought of that side before.

 

[Ernie]

Yeah it's a lot of conjecture here for sure. For me the biggest question is how much a player under contract should have control over his own medical decisions.

 

[cheswick]

First off, it seems from this tweet and a different one from Hextall that it's the NHLPA that's engaging Byfugliens team, and not the other way around.

Secondly, I see no reason Byfuglien is getting compensated here. He didn't attend camp, walked away from his contractual obligations, was suspended. Decided to get surgery without consult of the team (explicitly prohibited in the CBA). What leg could he possibly stand on? If there was a differing of opinion the avenue to pursue would be to report to camp, and then file a grievance with the union when the team doctors are recommending something you disagree with.

 

[Gotaf7]

I think what may be happening here is actually the opposite situation - Buff wanted surgery because he's tired of dealing with the nagging pain, but the team doctors say he can play through it (maybe with cortisone shots) and get the surgery next summer.

So, an interesting question for the NHLPA to ponder is if it's ok to have pain relieving surgery and go on LTIR rather than play through it, even when the team doctors say that you can play for now. What's the threshold of pain have to be before you qualify for surgery yet can still earn your contract money?

interesting take I never thought about it like that, seems very plausible.

 

[Ernie]

First off, it seems from this tweet and a different one from Hextall that it's the NHLPA that's engaging Byfugliens team, and not the other way around.

Secondly, I see no reason Byfuglien is getting compensated here. He didn't attend camp, walked away from his contractual obligations, was suspended. Decided to get surgery without consult of the team (explicitly prohibited in the CBA). What leg could he possibly stand on? If there was a differing of opinion the avenue to pursue would be to report to camp, and then file a grievance with the union when the team doctors are recommending something you disagree with.

There's a whole lot of grey area there though. We don't what happened at the end of last year, what kind of medical opinions the team gave him, and what level of discomfort he had over the summer. If he'd have shown up for camp out of shape the team would have had reason to suspend him for that, and if their position was that he didn't need surgery, he would have been in for a fight, which he may not have wanted to engage in.

 

[StreetHawk]

Honestly, this situation has elements of what happened with the NY Jets of the NFL.

OG, Osemele had a shoulder injury in August, that didn't get better. He opted for surgery over a week ago, against the wishes of the Jets. They believe he could play through it, whereas Osemele got a 2nd and 3rd opinion and surgery was recommended. So, he went ahead with it without the team's approval.

As for his contract, it was became fully guaranteed the moment he made the Jets roster out of training camp. But, the Jets had fined him for missing practice, which is expected to go to a grievance due to his 2nd and 3rd medical opinions on his shoulder.

Will be interesting with Buff whether his outside medical opinions were forwarded to the Jets or not. I would expect that to be a key factor in a grievance should one be filed.

There's the pure money aspect for the Jets, but there's also the cap situation as Buff should be on LTIR which would change how the Jets can operate their roster.

 

[cheswick]

Honestly, this situation has elements of what happened with the NY Jets of the NFL.

OG, Osemele had a shoulder injury in August, that didn't get better. He opted for surgery over a week ago, against the wishes of the Jets. They believe he could play through it, whereas Osemele got a 2nd and 3rd opinion and surgery was recommended. So, he went ahead with it without the team's approval.

As for his contract, it was became fully guaranteed the moment he made the Jets roster out of training camp. But, the Jets had fined him for missing practice, which is expected to go to a grievance due to his 2nd and 3rd medical opinions on his shoulder.

Will be interesting with Buff whether his outside medical opinions were forwarded to the Jets or not. I would expect that to be a key factor in a grievance should one be filed.

There's the pure money aspect for the Jets, but there's also the cap situation as Buff should be on LTIR which would change how the Jets can operate their roster.

From a Jets perspective consider Byfugliens contract is one of their highest it's most certainly insured. If he showed up and was put on LTIR for the season they would have all the cap space plus his contract covered. What's happened has been to the benefit of nobody it seems. It's all very odd.

 

[StreetHawk]

From a Jets perspective consider Byfugliens contract is one of their highest it's most certainly insured. If he showed up and was put on LTIR for the season they would have all the cap space plus his contract covered. What's happened has been to the benefit of nobody it seems. It's all very odd.

And that would add another layer to it, as it would also involve the insurance provider. Does the policy require the surgery to be approved by the team who then needs to inform the provider?

 

[LeHab]

Honestly, this situation has elements of what happened with the NY Jets of the NFL.

OG, Osemele had a shoulder injury in August, that didn't get better. He opted for surgery over a week ago, against the wishes of the Jets. They believe he could play through it, whereas Osemele got a 2nd and 3rd opinion and surgery was recommended. So, he went ahead with it without the team's approval.

As for his contract, it was became fully guaranteed the moment he made the Jets roster out of training camp. But, the Jets had fined him for missing practice, which is expected to go to a grievance due to his 2nd and 3rd medical opinions on his shoulder.

Will be interesting with Buff whether his outside medical opinions were forwarded to the Jets or not. I would expect that to be a key factor in a grievance should one be filed.

There's the pure money aspect for the Jets, but there's also the cap situation as Buff should be on LTIR which would change how the Jets can operate their roster.

NHL CBA outlines the process for a player to seek a 2nd and 3rd opinion if the first two can't agree. From what I read Byfuglien decision to sit was not health related however Jets GM claiming this to be a "complicated" issue might hint to other details we are not privy to. We have yet to hear anything from Buff side. On the surface the whole situations is a head scratcher.

Here the agent might be pushing more than Buff for payment as he is not getting commission cut while Buff is not getting paid.

 

[mouser]

I think what may be happening here is actually the opposite situation - Buff wanted surgery because he's tired of dealing with the nagging pain, but the team doctors say he can play through it (maybe with cortisone shots) and get the surgery next summer.

So, an interesting question for the NHLPA to ponder is if it's ok to have pain relieving surgery and go on LTIR rather than play through it, even when the team doctors say that you can play for now. What's the threshold of pain have to be before you qualify for surgery yet can still earn your contract money?

If this had happened there's a process lined out to address it. In short, Buff has the right to seek a 2nd opinion from his own selected doctor. If that personal doctor's recommendation differs from the team then the team doctor and player doctor are to confer and see if they can reach agreement. If they cannot reach agreement then the two doctors will agree on an independent third doctor who will make a final conclusive decision.

I'm not aware of any reports that Buff went through this resolution process.

 

[mouser]

From a Jets perspective consider Byfugliens contract is one of their highest it's most certainly insured. If he showed up and was put on LTIR for the season they would have all the cap space plus his contract covered. What's happened has been to the benefit of nobody it seems. It's all very odd.

Not that I think it matters here, but Buff has to miss 30 games before insurance kicks in. So if he showed up, had surgery, and was out for 4 months then insurance would have covered approximately $1.9m of his contract.

 

[Stumbledore]

First off, it seems from this tweet and a different one from Hextall that it's the NHLPA that's engaging Byfugliens team, and not the other way around.

Secondly, I see no reason Byfuglien is getting compensated here. He didn't attend camp, walked away from his contractual obligations, was suspended. Decided to get surgery without consult of the team (explicitly prohibited in the CBA). What leg could he possibly stand on?

Probably the one that wasn't operated on.

 

[LeHab]

Friedman take on Byfuglien saga:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jets-dustin-byfuglien-saga-likely-going-arbitration/

Speculation around case heading for arbitration makes sense. Hopefully we will get more details after.

 

[LadyStanley]

Friedman with (more) deets on situation to open his 31 thoughts

 

[Butch 19]

He seems to have by-passed the Jets medical staff. That's more than odd.

 

[StreetHawk]

He seems to have by-passed the Jets medical staff. That's more than odd.

Well, in today's sports world, given the Trent Williams situation, who knows. On Nate Burleson's (former WR for MIN/SEA/DET for 11 seasons) last appearance on Tim and Sid, he talked about getting a complete physical from a medical group after he retired, and the doctors asked him when he broke/tore a bunch of stuff and Nate's reply was, no, I was told it wasn't that serious.

I would agree with Friedman that him being on the shelf for extended periods last season with an ankle issue should help his case. Buff signing off on the medical assessment by the Jets helps theirs, as does his not reporting to camp for his physical.

But, there's going to be a bunch of other factors impacting what an arbitrator will decide.

 

[mouser]

There may still some unreported key facts we’re unaware of. My own personal thoughts on what I’ve seen reported to date:

- I’m willing to accept there’s a high probability that Buff did have ankle problems going into this season. And those problems were likely a result of his employment as a hockey player rather then some different offseason injury.

- I don’t think Buff signing off on the exit physical last season as being fit would be a point of contention if he had reported to camp and been re-examined with a finding of unfit due to the ankle. The team doctors are going to have access to the full medical records of injuries the prior season, including all the diagnoses, x-rays, and mri’s. Those team doctors can freely decide his current issue is a complication of something that happened last season. And even if the team doctors disagreed that it was, then Buff still has the second opinion and resolution process available.

- Even if Buff had reported and the team docs said you appear to be fit without a dispute from Buff. He could then start practicing with the team, report suffering from pain and require a new evaluation.

- The core problem here is Buff appears to have first breached his contract by not reporting to camp.

- Second problem is that Buff appears to have chosen to have surgery without input from the team doctors. This problem is actually more complicated then it might seem at first. The CBA/SPC does not mandate that players consult with team doctors before any medical decisions, most especially in the offseason. If Buff had reported and been examined and declared healthy or not requiring surgery then there would be an expectation for the CBA medical dispute process to begin. It can be argued the primary reason this didn’t happen is because Buff was already in breach of his contract by not reporting to camp.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

The medical history should mitigate a lot of things, but it sounds like Buf was gonna pack it in, so a lot of this stuff didn’t matter.

When the Jets asked him to reconsider, everything changed. This us where it gets complicated.

The CBA in this case works against Buf, so Him, his agent, the Jets & the league are trying to get this sorted well before it gets to arbitration. The problem is, there are 30 other teams in the league, most of which are more than willing to throw a fkailing Jets team an anchor.

The people with their necks on the chopping block is the team doctor and to a lesser extent, Chevy.

The Doc for the exit exam and Chevy for not informing the team doc about trying to lure Buf back so they could run a pre-camp physical so both sides could have a plan of action going forward.

High ankle sprains are problematic for skaters compared to football players due to the pressure that turning and stopping can put on yhe fibula.

 

[DL44]

First off, it seems from this tweet and a different one from Hextall that it's the NHLPA that's engaging Byfugliens team, and not the other way around.

Secondly, I see no reason Byfuglien is getting compensated here. He didn't attend camp, walked away from his contractual obligations, was suspended. Decided to get surgery without consult of the team (explicitly prohibited in the CBA). What leg could he possibly stand on? If there was a differing of opinion the avenue to pursue would be to report to camp, and then file a grievance with the union when the team doctors are recommending something you disagree with.

Add to that... IF Byfuglien was still not healthy at the beginning of the season - He would of immediately stated as such the moment the Jets announced he was suspended... i.e. If he had reported he still wasn't healthy, Jet's course of action would of been to LTIR till he figured his shit out.
But no.. he takes a Personal leave... gets suspended... then has his ankle suddenly requiring surgery... THEN talks kick up about it being hockey related and he should be paid.


Jets likely win this and get to keep the suspension going,... but essentially ruining the relationship with Buff.

 

[varano]

It does bring up some interesting questions.

What happens to a player who is injured but doesn't want a surgery to enable him to return to play? Is that medical decision his right to make? It would seem like Byfuglien was waffling on this and this is why he was flirting with retirement. But if he was injured, why would he not be on LTIR?

Thats basically what nathan horton did.