Bettman: Reduce Number of Divisions

Jazz

Registered User
hey, does anyone want to discuss my ideas on a Northern versus Southern Conference idea?
:teach:
I do!

I've made numerous posts on it.

Benefits to the league:
  • More Canadian matcups during the regular season and playoffs
  • Guarantees one American team in the Final (All-Canadian final would give American TV execs a heart attack)
  • from a competitive league standpoint, it would roughly equalize travel between East and the West.

But it won't fly. The Eastern teams will not want to give up their cozy travel schedules.
 

PACaptain

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Jul 4, 2005
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As a Penguins fan (and assuming they stay in Pittsburgh), I do not like it. Our most natural rivals are the New York Rangers, the Philadelphia Flyers, New Jersey Devils, and Washington Capitals. 3 of the 4 are in our current division. The point heshootshescores made about the Caps is true. I would hate for the Pens to have to force rivalries with other teams as Washington has had to.
 

Hemsky4PM

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Jun 25, 2003
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The real question is whether 20 clubs like the idea. I think there would definately be 20 in favour of it. Every team in the west would approve, and Dallas would approve twice :sarcasm: . The allignment of the East would be the problem, but I'm certain the NE teams would all approve, and that would make 20 right there. So the scheduling concerns are probably moot. I think the idea has legs and can probably be sold to opponents on the basis of regional television interests. Better TV ratings, even locally, mean better deals for the clubs. I also like the idea of returning to the classic division names, but I don't think the league would do it. Non-traditional fans wouldn't get it. Not that it should make a difference, but I think you'd see Philadelphia and Pittsburgh in the same division. That's still a state rivalry. Then the NY area teams would join with the SE teams.

This is something the NHL should have instituded after the lockout, but they made so many changes to the game they might not have been willing to make another drastic one.
 

weezman

Guest
Um, the NFL has four divisions per conference. Also, they have six teams in the playoffs with two first round byes. This would be a move away from the NFL, if anything.

Familiar != exact copy.
 

WalterSobchak

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Mar 11, 2004
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My main reasoning for grouping Atlanta, Nashville and other South Eastern teams together really is based on building interest in the game. Geographic rivalaries in there NEED to be built.

Correct me if I am wrong but the south is Nascar/College Football country. You've got to figure fans there are going to care more about playing teams from Nashville or Carolina or Florida rather than St. Louis or Minnesota.

The Red Wings will survive, make money and prosper no matter who is in their division.
 

Sotnos

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Jul 8, 2002
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My main reasoning for grouping Atlanta, Nashville and other South Eastern teams together really is based on building interest in the game. Geographic rivalaries in there NEED to be built.

Correct me if I am wrong but the south is Nascar/College Football country. You've got to figure fans there are going to care more about playing teams from Nashville or Carolina or Florida rather than St. Louis or Minnesota.
In the spirit of holiday season, I'll be nice and not rip you to pieces for your silly stereotypes and assumptions. Suffice it to say, most Preds fans seem really happy where they are and don't want to be 1-lumped in with the south east teams or 2-out of the western conference. I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've never seen a good reaction from a Preds fan when someone suggests they should be in the SE.
 

braincramp

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Mar 10, 2004
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Think a bit like the owners: The major reason for this change is to add an additional two teams in the near future. 6 divisions of 5 teams does not permit this very easily, because it introduces significant imbalances if teams are added to some of the 6 divisions and not others. 4 divisions of 7/8 teams more easily accommodates, if not encourages, the addition of two teams, and has a smaller impact yet if division standings control who advances to the playoffs. Think of it as the emerging four conferences, if that makes it more acceptable.

I don't think the owners care much about what established fans think, as long as it doesn't get too loud or have an impact upon attendance. The established rivalries will continue as long as the teams involved continue to play one another. Many fans seem to complain about too-frequent meetings anyway, even if the teams constitute a so-called "rivalry". Established fans are already addicted. It is what will attract new fans that really matters.

It seems curious that so many NHL hockey fans speak of their objections to change (game rules, schedules, scoring, playoff schemes), and yet so many fans continually offer their suggestions for change.
 

PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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Ottawa (Go 'Nucks)
Think a bit like the owners: The major reason for this change is to add an additional two teams in the near future. 6 divisions of 5 teams does not permit this very easily, because it introduces significant imbalances if teams are added to some of the 6 divisions and not others.

Uh, expansion has *nothing* to do with this. Period.

Do folks think there's some of sort of rule that the divisions and conference alignments have to be in place before expansion? Of course not. If they add two teams in the future, *then* you can change the conferences as needed.

This is being considered solely because we already have a majority of the teams unhappy with the current system. That's why the vote was 19 to 11 last time.
 

btn

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Feb 27, 2002
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Correct me if I am wrong but the south is Nascar/College Football country. You've got to figure fans there are going to care more about playing teams from Nashville or Carolina or Florida rather than St. Louis or Minnesota.

I assure you that most Thrashers fans feel the exact same way.

Nashville is the only team in the Western Conference I have any interest in playing on a regular basis, the idea that Atlanta might be in some Midwest division while natural rivals like Carolina and the Florida teams are just down the road enrages me.

Atlanta may be the team that gets jobbed to get this done, and that is too bad. This town has been regularly screwed over by league offices throughout its history.
 

DrVanntastic

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Jun 15, 2006
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Wentzville, MO
In my opinion, if they are going to realign to 2 conf. 2 div. each, then they should put 16 teams in one conference and 14 teams in the other.

Eastern
1.1
Montreal, Ottawa, Boston, Buffalo, Toronto, New Jersey, Rangers, Islanders, Detroit
1.2
Florida, Tampa Bay, Atlanta, Carolina, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh. Washington, New Jersey

Western
2.1
Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, San Jose, LA, Anaheim, Phoenix
2.2
St. Louis, Chicago, Columbus, Minnesota, Colorado, Nashville, Dallas

If Pittsburgh moves to KC or Houston, then Columbus would move to the east.
 

garry1221

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Mar 13, 2003
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I definitely like going back to 4 divisions. The problem comes when trying to divy up the teams. Ideally I'd love to see the original 6 in 1 division with maybe 1 other team. The problem with that is the NY teams and the distance between buffalo and toronto are so close it's hard to throw them in a separate division. IMO in threads about this it's harder to think of the divisions when thinking east or west conference instead of the old prince of wales and campbell conference. With that in mind this is how i'd realign the divisions

Prince of Wales conference

Adams Division
Boston
Chicago
Detroit
Montreal
NY Rangers
Ottawa
Toronto

Patrick Division
Buffalo
Florida
New Jersey
NY Islanders
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Tampa Bay
Washington

Campbell Conference

Smythe Division
Anaheim
Calgary
Colorado
Edmonton
Los Angeles
Phoenix
San Jose
Vancouver

Norris Division
Atlanta
Carolina
Columbus
Dallas
Minnesota
Nashville
St. Louis

as i said, it's kind of difficult to envision. Chose to put carolina in the west ahead of one of the florida teams because i already isolated nyr/nyi and nj and buf/tor in different divisions. It's just a roll of the dice gamble really, unless the conferences go with a 16/14 split as was suggested already. The only real toss up that i had a hard time thinking of was sabres/sens.

The hardest part of this is the distance when teams have to make the west coast trip. It's a tough trip no matter if you're in detroit or atlanta. I like IB's proposal for a schedule. IMO it's pretty dead on. haven't been able to come up with anything else that could work right now myself.
 

Kritter471

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Feb 17, 2005
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Speaking strictly from a Dallas-centric perspective, I love any idea that gets the Stars away from playing on the West Coast for my entire life. They have the worst travel in the NHL when you factor in time-zone changes, and that entirely stems from being in a division with not one team in their time zone.

I really don't care who they get grouped with as long as they're in central or mountain time. Stars management has been pitching this proposed new divisional plan heavily in the local papers, and Armstrong (Stars GM) was one of the 6 GMs who played a part in drawing it up. His influence is pretty clear in the geographic groupings as opposed to "traditional rivalry" and "easy East Coast travel"-centric.
 

KeydGV21

Registered User
Jul 25, 2006
1,833
258
I think the thing being overlooked in all of this is that a lot of East Coast teams don’t have any real incentive to want to switch out of the current system. Remember it only takes 11 teams to shoot down any planed change. I would be floored if whatever southeastern team proposed to move out west votes for this proposal and teams such as the Devils and Islanders financially love having the 4th home game against the Rangers (games against the Rangers drew about 3,000-5,000 extra fans then surrounding home games. NOTE: The Devils first home game against the Rangers was their 2nd which not surprisingly drew less then the season/home opener). I know New Jersey is getting a new arena but what happens in 3-5 years when the allure of it wears off? Hopefully they won’t need the attendance boost but it’s something to be considered.
In years the Sabres aren’t drawing well ( a moot point this year) they can count on an extra 3-4 thousand Leafs fans at least for those 4 home games a year.

If we assume these teams don’t want to pass on the extra paying customers that leaves us with 11 teams in the Eastern Conference and it only takes 7 of them shoot down the proposal. For teams like Montreal and Toronto there is little incentive to get bring in other teams from the Western Conference to draw fans as they already sell out every game or very close to it. All voting for this proposal does is increase their travel costs. These are the same travel costs that go up for all teams in the league, Thanks to an extended run to the Cup, including a pair of home game 7’s, Carolina finally made a profit last year for the first time since moving from Hartford. The extra travel costs to a team like that add up. Carolina isn’t the only team that’s struggling to make money and would have increased travel costs. All told there are a lot of reasons for teams in the Eastern Conference to vote against this new proposal.

That’s already 7 teams that have a real reason to vote no. It’s not a guarantee that these teams will vote no of course, but that leaves us with the simple math of 4 teams needing to vote no out of the remaining 23.

And it’s not a guarantee that all the Western teams vote for something that sees them take multiple long road trips out to the east coast. For all the talk about how it’s unfair that the East has to travel less then the west, it’s never pointed out that more out of conference games means MORE travel for the west and increased costs. There’s the possibility that Detroit votes no just out of spite for not being allowed back east (especially if the rumors of them being promised the right to move back before other teams are true).

I know I’m just about the only person who is in favor of the current schedule (and in fact would like to see the NHL eliminate all out of conference games) but it does have it’s advantages. It’s more cost effective with limited travel to the other conference, and there are a lot of cross conference games that just aren’t appealing… for all the times Pittsburgh and Washington would visit Phoenix they are also getting games against Florida and Philadelphia. For all the times Anaheim and San Jose would come to Buffalo I’m also stuck as a season ticket holder paying for games against Phoenix and St. Louis. Sure there are dog games against the eastern conference, but at least I’ve built up a hate for these teams over the years, it’s very hard to do that against out of conference teams. (And yes, I know the idea of getting cross conference games is to entice people to buy tickets to a single game and not get people buy Season Tickets)

Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to the fans of Florida, Philadelphia, Phoenix and St. Louis, I picked those 4 teams because they are the two bottom teams in each conference.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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FWIW: I advocated the current schedule setup about 3 years ago; however, I didn't advocate playing a division rival 6 times in a month, then not again for the next 5. What I wanted to see instead is about half the divisional games played under a "home and home" setup on a weekend.
 

Spydey629

Registered User
Jan 28, 2005
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385
Carlisle, PA
Personally, I don't like the idea at all. I didn't like my Pens in the Northeast when they were winning that division in the mid-90's. Keep them in the Atlantic/Patrick division area. - Since the new arena WILL happen.

I think WHEN the expansion to 32 happens, and it eventually will, THEN worry about realignment - going to the already mentioned NFL-like 4 divisions of 4 per conference.

Re-shuffle out of the 8 division games/team, to come up with a schedule that works. (Like the 03/04 schedule of 6 vs division, 4 vs intraconference, 1 interconference, & 3 wild cards (all Canada twice, etc) Then do the math so that a division/conference schedule overload makes sense with 32 teams - like this:

3 division teams x 6 each = 18 games
12 conference teams x 4 each = 48 games
16 interconference x 1 each = 16 games
TOTAL = 82 games - no muss, no fuss

OR

Reduce the schedule to 76 games (See Scott Burnside's ESPN.com article)
3 division teams x 8 each = 24 games
12 conference teams x 3 each = 36 games
16 interconference x 1 each = 16 games


Either one keeps the schedule conference heavy, and each teams sees everyone else every year. The second option reduces the disparity between the ammounts of division games and conference games.
 
Last edited:

BringBackHakstol

Registered User
Oct 25, 2005
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Philadelphia
i see some proposals splitting PHI from NYI, NYR, and NJD. i think a proposal of this nature would have a very difficult time of passing.

in the east boston/montreal/ottawa/toronto will not want to split either, along with the teams in the atlantic minus pittsburgh. Keeping these two groups of teams together is probably the most important piece of getting a change like this to pass.
 

InLuongoWeTrust

Registered User
Mar 23, 2006
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Vancouver BC
ideally (based on geography, nhl history and fanbase)...this is what MY 32 team league would look like...

Clarence S Campbell Conference
Conn Smythe Division
Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Seattle, Minnesota, North Dakota, Portland

James Norris Division
San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Dallas, Colorado, St. Louis, Kansas City, Houston

Prince of Wales Conference
Jack Adams Division
Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, Boston, Detroit, Buffalo, Hartford

Lester Patrick Division
New York R, New York I, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, Columbus

Relocation
IN - Winnipeg, Portland, Seattle, Kansas City, Hartford, Quebec
OUT - Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida

Expansion
North Dakota, Houston

Realignment
Chicago, Detroit, Columbus move from "West" to "East"

Schedule (see example below)
1 game (home/away alternate seasons) vs other conference = 12 games
Cal, Edm, Van, Wpg play 1 home 1 away vs Tor, Mtl, Ott, Qbc each year = 8 games
2/3 games vs other division = 20 games
6 games (3 home, 3 away) vs own division = 42 games

All-Star Game
Wales vs Campbell - winning conference gets home ice in cup finals

Playoffs
top 2 teams in each division get 1st round bye
3 vs 6, 4 vs 5 in each division play best of 5 series (2-2-1 format)
winner 3v6 playes 1, winner 4v5 plays 2 (2-2-1-1-1 format)
winner 3/6v1 plays winner 4/5v2 (2-2-1-1-1 format)
div winner vs div winner (2-3-2 format)
cup finals (2-3-2 format)

Canucks Schedule
Van vs Campbell Conf
Van vs Cal = 6
Van vs Edm = 6
Van vs Wpg = 6
Van vs Sea = 6
Van vs Por = 6
Van vs Min = 6
Van vs ND = 6
--------------------
Van vs SJ = 3
Van vs Ana = 3
Van vs LA = 3
Van vs Col = 3
Van vs Dal = 2
Van vs Hou = 2
Van vs Stl = 2
Van vs KC = 2
-----------------------
TOTAL GAMES = 62

Van vs Wales Conference
Van vs Tor = 2
Van vs Ott = 2
Van vs Mtl = 2
Van vs Qbc = 2
Van vs Bos = 1
Van vs Det = 1
Van vs Buf = 1
Van vs Hfd = 1
-----------------------
Van vs NYR = 1
Van vs NYI = 1
Van vs NJ = 1
Van vs Phi = 1
Van vs Pgh = 1
Van vs Wsh = 1
Van vs Cbs = 1
Van vs Chi = 1
-----------------------
TOTAL GAMES = 20
 
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Captain Lou

Registered User
Apr 2, 2004
4,347
49
I definitely like going back to 4 divisions. The problem comes when trying to divy up the teams. Ideally I'd love to see the original 6 in 1 division with maybe 1 other team. The problem with that is the NY teams and the distance between buffalo and toronto are so close it's hard to throw them in a separate division. IMO in threads about this it's harder to think of the divisions when thinking east or west conference instead of the old prince of wales and campbell conference. With that in mind this is how i'd realign the divisions...

For all the people who think the way things used to be was perfect...Buffalo and Toronto used to be in different conferences!

That is one thing the current alignment did fix. I am not a Leaf fan, but it wasn't fair to have them in the Norris Division.

That being said, any realignment of divisions will make fans of some team upset. There is just no possible way to do it otherwise. i will say that the division set up that Zaphod put up were very intriguing, even though my Devils would lose the Flyers as a division rival...love to hate them!
 

KeydGV21

Registered User
Jul 25, 2006
1,833
258
I guess history doesn't include Cup winning teams like Tampa and Carolina in your little world?

Come on, he's got a team in North Dakotka... as a state they don't have enough people to support a team (less then 650,000 in 2000)... why would something silly like the Cup be a factor
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
ideally (based on geography, nhl history and fanbase)...this is what MY 32 team league would look like...

Clarence S Campbell Conference
Conn Smythe Division
Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Seattle, Minnesota, North Dakota, Portland

James Norris Division
San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Dallas, Colorado, St. Louis, Kansas City, Houston

Prince of Wales Conference
Jack Adams Division
Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, Boston, Detroit, Buffalo, Hartford

Lester Patrick Division
New York R, New York I, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, Columbus

Relocation
IN - Winnipeg, Portland, Seattle, Kansas City, Hartford, Quebec
OUT - Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida

Expansion
North Dakota, Houston

Realignment
Chicago, Detroit, Columbus move from "West" to "East"

Schedule (see example below)
1 game (home/away alternate seasons) vs other conference = 12 games
Cal, Edm, Van, Wpg play 1 home 1 away vs Tor, Mtl, Ott, Qbc each year = 8 games
2/3 games vs other division = 20 games
6 games (3 home, 3 away) vs own division = 42 games

All-Star Game
Wales vs Campbell - winning conference gets home ice in cup finals

Playoffs
top 2 teams in each division get 1st round bye
3 vs 6, 4 vs 5 in each division play best of 5 series (2-2-1 format)
winner 3v6 playes 1, winner 4v5 plays 2 (2-2-1-1-1 format)
winner 3/6v1 plays winner 4/5v2 (2-2-1-1-1 format)
div winner vs div winner (2-3-2 format)
cup finals (2-3-2 format)

Canucks Schedule
Van vs Campbell Conf
Van vs Cal = 6
Van vs Edm = 6
Van vs Wpg = 6
Van vs Sea = 6
Van vs Por = 6
Van vs Min = 6
Van vs ND = 6
--------------------
Van vs SJ = 3
Van vs Ana = 3
Van vs LA = 3
Van vs Col = 3
Van vs Dal = 2
Van vs Hou = 2
Van vs Stl = 2
Van vs KC = 2
-----------------------
TOTAL GAMES = 62

Van vs Wales Conference
Van vs Tor = 2
Van vs Ott = 2
Van vs Mtl = 2
Van vs Qbc = 2
Van vs Bos = 1
Van vs Det = 1
Van vs Buf = 1
Van vs Hfd = 1
-----------------------
Van vs NYR = 1
Van vs NYI = 1
Van vs NJ = 1
Van vs Phi = 1
Van vs Pgh = 1
Van vs Wsh = 1
Van vs Cbs = 1
Van vs Chi = 1
-----------------------
TOTAL GAMES = 20
"Fanbase" has nothing to do with this rubbish. Nor does it appear to be encumbered by anything approaching rational business thought. North Dakota? The "historic" hotbed of Hartford? Tossing out a market that draws 20k a game?

Xenophobia, however, does appear to have a substantial amount to do with it.
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
21,437
9,057
As a Penguins fan (and assuming they stay in Pittsburgh), I do not like it. Our most natural rivals are the New York Rangers, the Philadelphia Flyers, New Jersey Devils, and Washington Capitals. 3 of the 4 are in our current division. The point heshootshescores made about the Caps is true. I would hate for the Pens to have to force rivalries with other teams as Washington has had to.
pens were actually in the northeast division from 1993-98, with teams like hartford, buffalo, quebec, montreal, ottawa, and boston.

philly, washington, and nyr are the pens biggest rivals, but i think the pens could see some better competition in the coming years from buffalo, montreal, and ottawa. could make for an exciting division if both pitt and washington join it.
 

optimus2861

Registered User
Aug 29, 2005
5,044
531
Bedford NS
i see some proposals splitting PHI from NYI, NYR, and NJD. i think a proposal of this nature would have a very difficult time of passing.

in the east boston/montreal/ottawa/toronto will not want to split either, along with the teams in the atlantic minus pittsburgh. Keeping these two groups of teams together is probably the most important piece of getting a change like this to pass.
Add Buffalo to the Boston/Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto group. As has been pointed out, they won't want to lose the extra Leafs fans that show up to Leafs games in their barn, particularly in down years.

I have a hard time seeing how 4 teams/division can work at all, because as you say, you've got two "blocks" of 5 teams/each that won't want to split (maybe 6 in the case of the former Patrick division; Washington may want their old rivals back), and in the west you've got one block of 3 teams that nobody will want to get stuck with (Vancouver/Calgary/Edmonton).
 

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