Bettman Pulling out ANYTHING to make Union look bad.....

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Poignant Discussion*

I tell it like it is
Jul 18, 2003
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Pepper said:
Hate to break this to you but you pro-PA yahoos are a small minority. Wake up dude, huge majority of fans support league & Bettman in this issue.


And thats because the majority of the people making the comments are ignorant towards how business works
 

quat

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Apr 4, 2003
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NataSatan666 said:
And thats because the majority of the people making the comments are ignorant towards how business works

Don't you feel the least bit silly posting something like this? ie anyone who disagree's with your own opinion must be ignorant. It's attitudes like this that hinder logical discourse to the degree where you get two people yelling insults at each other.

There is value in understanding why people hold different opinions than your own, while you still favour your own to be correct.

Considering most "Business people" don't agree with your opinion, it's hard to believe your statement has any credibility what-so-ever. This conflict happens to be between Business people and atheletes, so suggesting that atheletes are more business savy than Business people really makes no sense.

This is not to attack your support of Players or the NHLPA if you would rather, but to make it clear that nonsensical posts like the one above don't add anything positive to this debate at all.
 

kerrly

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May 16, 2004
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NataSatan666 said:
And thats because the majority of the people making the comments are ignorant towards how business works

All you are is ignorant towards anything that differs from your opinion.
 

SwisshockeyAcademy

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BlackRedGold said:
Fortunately in the NHL it is proven that you become good and then, because you are good, you have money.



Why do you think that model will work for the Flames when it didn't work for the Rangers or Capitals?



Any team that mishandles the draft and development is in for a rough ride.



Fortunately, in the recent NHL, good teams had money. Regardless of whether the team was in the swamps of Jersey, Texas or a previously failed NHL market like Denver, if the team was really good then it brought in lots of money.

Playoff revenues and an unrestricted free agent age of 31 level the playing field pretty darn well.
So everything is just fine in your mind, no need to do anything . The formula is simple - win games and have money. It will be interesting to see if we can get 30 teams to have long playoff runs and be successful. The math probably does not add up there does it.
I am not saying money guarantees success but it means you have a chance of overcoming some draft and development problems. How is that not clear in my previous post? Level playing field. Why is that a bad thing?
 

YellHockey*

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SwisshockeyAcademy said:
Level playing field. Why is that a bad thing?

There will never be a perfectly level playing field unless there is 100% revenue sharing. It is impossible.

Say there is a hard cap. The Leafs and Rangers still pull in way more money then the average team. They won't be able to spend anymore on players then any other team. But they can spend their money other ways.

They can spend millions on taking the best GMs, coaches and scouts away from other teams. They can buy their own airplanes for players travel to woe free agents. They can purchase the most latest, greatest and most expensive technology for their players.
 

SwisshockeyAcademy

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BlackRedGold said:
There will never be a perfectly level playing field unless there is 100% revenue sharing. It is impossible.

Say there is a hard cap. The Leafs and Rangers still pull in way more money then the average team. They won't be able to spend anymore on players then any other team. But they can spend their money other ways.

They can spend millions on taking the best GMs, coaches and scouts away from other teams. They can buy their own airplanes for players travel to woe free agents. They can purchase the most latest, greatest and most expensive technology for their players.
So let the high rollers spend their extra cash. If we have a cap at least we have some sort of a handle on the financial picture. I'm not asking for the moon only a level playing field salary wise.
 

FLYLine27*

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Nov 9, 2004
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Doesnt ANY1 watch the NFL? Its so stupid how EVERY seem is almost equal. A team goes from first to last...last to first in one year. Its SO even it makes the product worse NOT better. I used to be a HUGE NFL fan back in the day...then it changed..im still an NFL fan but it just doesnt have that ZING it used to. There is no satisfaction when your team goes from last to make the playoffs the next year...its expected half the time. ( ok there is but nobody is suprised ) just ask around. A perfectly level playing field is the worst thing...if they made a salary cap for 45 million it would be ok..but 30 million is just a complete joke. And until Bettman realizes that..there will be no hockey because the PA will not compromise that deep...nor should they
 

kerrly

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FLYLine4LIFE said:
Doesnt ANY1 watch the NFL? Its so stupid how EVERY seem is almost equal. A team goes from first to last...last to first in one year. Its SO even it makes the product worse NOT better. I used to be a HUGE NFL fan back in the day...then it changed..im still an NFL fan but it just doesnt have that ZING it used to. There is no satisfaction when your team goes from last to make the playoffs the next year...its expected half the time. ( ok there is but nobody is suprised ) just ask around. A perfectly level playing field is the worst thing...if they made a salary cap for 45 million it would be ok..but 30 million is just a complete joke. And until Bettman realizes that..there will be no hockey because the PA will not compromise that deep...nor should they

I'm sure the number of 30 million is negotiable. A salary cap is what is not negotiable according to the league. 30 million I'm sure is his starting point.
 

YellHockey*

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SwisshockeyAcademy said:
So let the high rollers spend their extra cash. If we have a cap at least we have some sort of a handle on the financial picture. I'm not asking for the moon only a level playing field salary wise.

Why should teams of unequal talent levels have equal payrolls?

Should the players on Chicago make as much as the players on New Jersey?
 

SwisshockeyAcademy

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BlackRedGold said:
Why should teams of unequal talent levels have equal payrolls?

Should the players on Chicago make as much as the players on New Jersey?
Well i guess we can go no further with this conversation. I guess all i can say is why would you not have a cap or luxury tax or whatever it is it takes to achieve cost certainty? Do you know what a cap is and what it does?
 

YellHockey*

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SwisshockeyAcademy said:
Well i guess we can go no further with this conversation. I guess all i can say is why would you not have a cap or luxury tax or whatever it is it takes to achieve cost certainty? Do you know what a cap is and what it does?

I know what a cap is and what it does.

Do you know what a budget is and what it does?

How does a budget not provide cost certainty?
 

SwisshockeyAcademy

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BlackRedGold said:
I know what a cap is and what it does.

Do you know what a budget is and what it does?

How does a budget not provide cost certainty?
It does, but owners need to be protected from themselves and i am after a level playing field dollar wise not the huge disparities we see today.
 

PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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BlackRedGold said:
How does a budget not provide cost certainty?

It does provide cost certainty.

It just doesn't provide for keeping a great team together, and the possibility of winning the Cup nowadays. As each great young player gets expensive, just jettison him off and replace him with some young cheap player.

But hey, if your goal is to just make money, that's certainly doable. Some teams are already doing it. Their fans don't like it much, of course.
 

BCCHL inactive

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FLYLine4LIFE said:
Doesnt ANY1 watch the NFL? Its so stupid how EVERY seem is almost equal. A team goes from first to last...last to first in one year. Its SO even it makes the product worse NOT better.

Tell that to current NFL fans. Even when the NHL is playing, my store's NFL sales easily compete with, if not out-sell NHL merchandise. (keep in mind Prince George is in Northern Canada)

There is a reason why the NFL is the most successful pro sports league on the planet, and the NHL doesn't even come close to any of the major domestic European soccer leagues.
 

txpd

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Jan 25, 2003
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FLYLine4LIFE said:
Doesnt ANY1 watch the NFL? Its so stupid how EVERY seem is almost equal. A team goes from first to last...last to first in one year. Its SO even it makes the product worse NOT better. I used to be a HUGE NFL fan back in the day...then it changed..im still an NFL fan but it just doesnt have that ZING it used to. There is no satisfaction when your team goes from last to make the playoffs the next year...its expected half the time. ( ok there is but nobody is suprised ) just ask around. A perfectly level playing field is the worst thing...if they made a salary cap for 45 million it would be ok..but 30 million is just a complete joke. And until Bettman realizes that..there will be no hockey because the PA will not compromise that deep...nor should they

come on flyboy, no one in their right mind could call the NFL model stupid. it works to a greater success than the other models. it keeps the fans of more of the teams involved longer in each season.

the $31m cap number, just like anything negotiated is a starting point. anyone that portrays it as the only figure is an anti cap person. on the other hand $45m is too tall. there are not enough teams that can afford a $45m payroll now to make that the number....my guess is that the number would end up in the $38m range.
 

txpd

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Jan 25, 2003
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BlackRedGold said:
I know what a cap is and what it does.

Do you know what a budget is and what it does?

How does a budget not provide cost certainty?

a salary cap removes the stress and pressure of the competitive marketplace from the equation. the part that i find continously amusing from those of you like to bring up the self imposed budget is that you totally ignore the reality of the marketplace. yea...a team like edmonton stick with their budget. they can trade their top players when they reach arbitration eligibility and become too expensive.
they can be like boston. refuse to sign jason allison for $7m or bill guerin for $8.5m and trade them for what they could get for them. trade your allstar player for a no name prospect, because keeping that player takes you over your budget. thats the budget you are talking about....right?

here is the difference. without a salary cap enforced by the league, teams that hold to a budget are called cheap. their fans say they are never willing to commit to what it takes to win and every time it happens it damages the franchise. with a league mandated salary cap everybody is required to be cheap and a team can prove its commitment to doing what it take to win in other ways.
 

MarkZackKarl

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Moron

here is the difference. without a salary cap enforced by the league, teams that hold to a budget are called cheap. their fans say they are never willing to commit to what it takes to win and every time it happens it damages the franchise. with a league mandated salary cap everybody is required to be cheap and a team can prove its commitment to doing what it take to win in other ways.

Huh? What are the 'other ways' a team can commit to win if everyone is forced to be mediocre or bad? If everyone is mediocre, it decreases your team's chances at winning, it does not increase them.

If anything, fan whining will go up in cities who's teams no longer have a better quality team.
 

Pepper

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Aug 30, 2004
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NataSatan666 said:
And thats because the majority of the people making the comments are ignorant towards how business works

Well I have a masters degree in business administration/marketing and IMHO you're full of ****.
 

SENSible1*

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scaredsensfan said:
Huh? What are the 'other ways' a team can commit to win if everyone is forced to be mediocre or bad? If everyone is mediocre, it decreases your team's chances at winning, it does not increase them.

If anything, fan whining will go up in cities who's teams no longer have a better quality team.


Yup, look at how consistently mediocre the Patriots and Eagles are in the NFL. It's totally impossible to have excellence in a capped league.

Does it ever bother NHLPA supporters to have to totally ignore basic facts and reality to toe the party line. I can understand someone like Saskin doing it, after all that is what he is paid to do, but what, other than your misapprehensions about the impact of a cap, causes you to continuously spout this tripe?
 
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