Better way to determine top pick

[AbsentMojo]

You know what would be better than this ping pong ball lottery in some laywer's office.. is to have the teams that dont make the cup playoffs have a tournament to earn the top pick. Make it one and done like march madness. The winner gets top pick and everyone else ranked accordingly - ties broken by worse reg season record. Then there wouldnt be any point to tanking. If you dont make it you have to WIN something to get the top pick. This gets rid of all this tanking and stops making fans so twisted over W/L. With Seattle there 16 in cup playoffs and 16 in draft pick tournament. Even with 15 - you give worst record a bye in the first round. Then its a 4 round round playoff that fans (aside from 2 teams) would probably watch since every game is win or go home. More money generated, more fun for fans of teams that dont make cup playoffs, and an exciting playoff format and most of all no more incentive to tank.

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[King'sPawn]

You know what would be better than this ping pong ball lottery in some laywer's office.. is to have the teams that dont make the cup playoffs have a tournament to earn the top pick. Make it one and done like march madness. The winner gets top pick and everyone else ranked accordingly - ties broken by worse reg season record. Then there wouldnt be any point to tanking. If you dont make it you have to WIN something to get the top pick. This gets rid of all this tanking and stops making fans so twisted over W/L. With Seattle there 16 in cup playoffs and 16 in draft pick tournament. Even with 15 - you give worst record a bye in the first round. Then its a 4 round round playoff that fans (aside from 2 teams) would probably watch since every game is win or go home. More money generated, more fun for fans of teams that dont make cup playoffs, and an exciting playoff format and most of all no more incentive to tank.

No.

1. This game is meaningless to players. They missed the playoffs, and unlike Exhibition, they aren't "getting their timing" to get ready for the upcoming season.

2. The lottery system is fair. It still forces GMs to be good GMs. They can't expect a top pick to save them, but they still have a reasonable chance of getting a decent pick.

3. If a team genuinely sucks, this format would ensure they are more sucky as the bubble teams would win the top pick.

 

[AbsentMojo]

No.

1. This game is meaningless to players. They missed the playoffs, and unlike Exhibition, they aren't "getting their timing" to get ready for the upcoming season.

2. The lottery system is fair. It still forces GMs to be good GMs. They can't expect a top pick to save them, but they still have a reasonable chance of getting a decent pick.

3. If a team genuinely sucks, this format would ensure they are more sucky as the bubble teams would win the top pick.

I partly agree w you on 1.. I wouldnt say meaningless - they would be playing to improve their team - which is still pretty high motivation (but not as much as cup). I agree the system is currently fair, but the issue im trying to address is the tanking... a lot of fans find themselves rooting for losses and teams may tank via trades - that is bad for the game. On 3 you have decent point there - but there is something welfare-ish about handing poorly run team like Edmonton the top pick over 7 years. I think that should be tough s*hit and more motivation to run your team better than relax and wait for first overalls - which is what EDM did. I dont like that teams have quite a bit incentive to lose.

 

[KINGS17]

You know what would be better than this ping pong ball lottery in some laywer's office.. is to have the teams that dont make the cup playoffs have a tournament to earn the top pick. Make it one and done like march madness. The winner gets top pick and everyone else ranked accordingly - ties broken by worse reg season record. Then there wouldnt be any point to tanking. If you dont make it you have to WIN something to get the top pick. This gets rid of all this tanking and stops making fans so twisted over W/L. With Seattle there 16 in cup playoffs and 16 in draft pick tournament. Even with 15 - you give worst record a bye in the first round. Then its a 4 round round playoff that fans (aside from 2 teams) would probably watch since every game is win or go home. More money generated, more fun for fans of teams that dont make cup playoffs, and an exciting playoff format and most of all no more incentive to tank.

I think Russian roulette would be better. Each team in the roulette tournament sends a sacrificial front office person no lower than VP of something. I know who I would send from the Kings.

The winner of the Drafting Games gets the number 1 overall pick.

 

[KingsFan7824]

You'd have to pay the players on non-playoff teams more, because paychecks stop when the regular season is over. Plus current players don't care about an unknown 18 year old. They may be traded or leave in free agency before next year starts, or may never even be a teammate of that unknown 18 year old. Would you want players that don't need a surgery right away, but if they get it early, they'll be ready for next October, to skip on that surgery with a team out of the race to play in this tournament?

There's not one player on the Kings right now that cares a lick about Hughes or Kakko. They wouldn't play hard for the idea of them. If that was even brought up, Quick might punch whoever asked about them.

If you want to get rid of tanking, either go with a league wide lottery where everyone gets the same odds every year, or simply get rid of the draft.

 

[AbsentMojo]

You'd have to pay the players on non-playoff teams more, because paychecks stop when the regular season is over. Plus current players don't care about an unknown 18 year old. They may be traded or leave in free agency before next year starts, or may never even be a teammate of that unknown 18 year old. Would you want players that don't need a surgery right away, but if they get it early, they'll be ready for next October, to skip on that surgery with a team out of the race to play in this tournament?

There's not one player on the Kings right now that cares a lick about Hughes or Kakko. They wouldn't play hard for the idea of them. If that was even brought up, Quick might punch whoever asked about them.

If you want to get rid of tanking, either go with a league wide lottery where everyone gets the same odds every year, or simply get rid of the draft.

I think current players would care what the GM and fans think of them, and that should be enough motivation - except if they are FA - that I agree is a problem. A CB amendment (assuming there is such a thing) could set aside money for the tournament - but the gate and TV rights should cover it. With a one and done tournament it could be over in 8 days so I dont think it would delay surgeries significantly. Also, its fun.. like 3 on 3 is fun.

 

[Kings man 4 life]

I partly agree w you on 1.. I wouldnt say meaningless - they would be playing to improve their team - which is still pretty high motivation (but not as much as cup). I agree the system is currently fair, but the issue im trying to address is the tanking... a lot of fans find themselves rooting for losses and teams may tank via trades - that is bad for the game. On 3 you have decent point there - but there is something welfare-ish about handing poorly run team like Edmonton the top pick over 7 years. I think that should be tough s*hit and more motivation to run your team better than relax and wait for first overalls - which is what EDM did. I dont like that teams have quite a bit incentive to lose.

Have it played by the teams prospect pool, players will care as it will be something they could show off to their teams too. Though it should be the bottom 4 teams only.

 

[KINGS17]

I think current players would care what the GM and fans think of them, and that should be enough motivation - except if they are FA - that I agree is a problem. A CB amendment (assuming there is such a thing) could set aside money for the tournament - but the gate and TV rights should cover it. With a one and done tournament it could be over in 8 days so I dont think it would delay surgeries significantly. Also, its fun.. like 3 on 3 is fun.

While I like the spirit of your proposal, I think we would be shocked to learn just how little the players care about what their fans think of them.

When it comes to tournaments of any kind, it think the players are more interested in the international variety and getting to play for their country. Players and the NHLPA know these types of tournaments generate big revenue and may be worth the risk of injury. Also, many players still have a soft spot for their country.

 

[Brodeur]

Tough to motivate players to get a higher draft pick when there's a good chunk of players who will be pending UFAs / traded, so they wouldn't exactly be in line to benefit. Would John Tavares have played for the Islanders in a consolation playoff last year, or would he had sat out being this close to his big pay day (keeping in mind Tavares once suffered a season ending injury at the Olympics)?

Plus plenty of guys who are playing in game #82 probably have been nursing injuries to various degrees and/or already opted to have procedures done if the team doesn't look playoff bound. Players will play hurt for a shot at the Stanley Cup, but I doubt they'd do the same to get the franchise a chance to move up and draft Dylan Cozens.

The lottery is a decent enough deterrent to tanking. We've seen a few teams get bumped down three spots in recent years. Plus there's other reasons not to lose, mainly job security, ticket sales. Now that the lottery was changed in 2016 to include the top 3 picks, there's less incentive to lose on purpose since there's no guarantee that you'd end up with the #1 or #2 pick if you were the worst team.

And I don't know who exactly is tanking this season. The Devils weren't, but the playoffs are looking unlikely. So it's standard procedure to look to trade pending UFAs. Are they supposed to keep their impending UFAs for the consolation tournament now?

In the case of Ottawa who already don't have their first rounder, what would their motivation be in the consolation tournament? Would they want to lose on purpose so that they fork over a lesser pick?

 

[YP44]

I like the lottery, but there is another system I have heard that intrigues me.

Basically once a team is officially eliminated from the playoffs ever point they earn goes toward the top pick. The team with the most most once eliminated would get the top pick. Tie would go to the team lower in the NHL standings. Teams eliminated earlier on would have more games to earn points, but may nto be as good as team eliminated later on. I prefer the lottery but this would be interesting too.

 

[AbsentMojo]

While I like the spirit of your proposal, I think we would be shocked to learn just how little the players care about what their fans think of them.

When it comes to tournaments of any kind, it think the players are more interested in the international variety and getting to play for their country. Players and the NHLPA know these types of tournaments generate big revenue and may be worth the risk of injury. Also, many players still have a soft spot for their country.

Maybe so re how little interest they would have... I guess it would have to be based on $$ incentive. Not sure how much gate/TV rev share after expenses there would be - but if you divide that up - it could tack on quite a bit of money for each player on a per game basis.

 

[kovacro]

Put all the lottery GMs in an octagon and have them fight till one is left standing. No holds barred.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Tough to motivate players to get a higher draft pick when there's a good chunk of players who will be pending UFAs / traded, so they wouldn't exactly be in line to benefit. Would John Tavares have played for the Islanders in a consolation playoff last year, or would he had sat out being this close to his big pay day (keeping in mind Tavares once suffered a season ending injury at the Olympics)?

Plus plenty of guys who are playing in game #82 probably have been nursing injuries to various degrees and/or already opted to have procedures done if the team doesn't look playoff bound. Players will play hurt for a shot at the Stanley Cup, but I doubt they'd do the same to get the franchise a chance to move up and draft Dylan Cozens.

The lottery is a decent enough deterrent to tanking. We've seen a few teams get bumped down three spots in recent years. Plus there's other reasons not to lose, mainly job security, ticket sales. Now that the lottery was changed in 2016 to include the top 3 picks, there's less incentive to lose on purpose since there's no guarantee that you'd end up with the #1 or #2 pick if you were the worst team.

And I don't know who exactly is tanking this season. The Devils weren't, but the playoffs are looking unlikely. So it's standard procedure to look to trade pending UFAs. Are they supposed to keep their impending UFAs for the consolation tournament now?

In the case of Ottawa who already don't have their first rounder, what would their motivation be in the consolation tournament? Would they want to lose on purpose so that they fork over a lesser pick?

Your last point - you are right that creates another tank incentive...and if the team getting the pick was in the cup playoffs cant sub them in.

 

[go4hockey]

This is among the dumber ideas I have seen. Players do not care about draft picks and getting them to play games after the season is over and they missed the playoffs would be very tough. Leave it as it is.

 

[AbsentMojo]

I like the lottery, but there is another system I have heard that intrigues me.

Basically once a team is officially eliminated from the playoffs ever point they earn goes toward the top pick. The team with the most most once eliminated would get the top pick. Tie would go to the team lower in the NHL standings. Teams eliminated earlier on would have more games to earn points, but may nto be as good as team eliminated later on. I prefer the lottery but this would be interesting too.

I like his one better than my idea... much less logistical issues and gives the win incentive

 

[Master Yoda]

I like the lottery, but there is another system I have heard that intrigues me.

Basically once a team is officially eliminated from the playoffs ever point they earn goes toward the top pick. The team with the most most once eliminated would get the top pick. Tie would go to the team lower in the NHL standings. Teams eliminated earlier on would have more games to earn points, but may nto be as good as team eliminated later on. I prefer the lottery but this would be interesting too.

Interesting. You might see less movement at the deadline though. Normal sellers may want to keep some players who are contributing.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I think current players would care what the GM and fans think of them, and that should be enough motivation

Kopitar and Doughty with their NMC's care what the GM or fans think. I'm sure they do. What are fans going to do, boo them? What's the GM going to do, suspend them, hurting the team in games that count in the standings during the normal season?

With a one and done tournament it could be over in 8 days so I dont think it would delay surgeries significantly. Also, its fun.. like 3 on 3 is fun.

What if someone gets hurt during these extra games for the next 8 months, and then your team doesn't even win the tournament? What's fun about that?

While I like the spirit of your proposal, I think we would be shocked to learn just how little the players care about what their fans think of them.

When it comes to tournaments of any kind, it think the players are more interested in the international variety and getting to play for their country. Players and the NHLPA know these types of tournaments generate big revenue and may be worth the risk of injury. Also, many players still have a soft spot for their country.

The guaranteed contracts also help with that. If I get hurt at the Olympics, I still get paid by my NHL owner. Like you say, at least that's for national glory. This draft tournament would be for a guy that might take your job. He's not even a teammate yet either.

These guys on bad teams all start making offseason plans. You suffer through a rough 6 months, only to play more games? These guys want to go away and do whatever they do with their money. They don't want to play more games for the #1 pick. We watch this team sometimes have trouble finding motivation to show up when they're mathematically alive for a playoff spot. It's a great idea for a little tournament in theory, but very impractical. There are so many things that would never allow such a tournament to get off the ground. Owners wouldn't want to pay the players even more money somehow, let alone all the player issues. Would the players in this draft tournament make more than whatever the share is that players get for winning the Cup? That would probably get some players upset if it were so.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I like the lottery, but there is another system I have heard that intrigues me.

Basically once a team is officially eliminated from the playoffs ever point they earn goes toward the top pick. The team with the most most once eliminated would get the top pick. Tie would go to the team lower in the NHL standings. Teams eliminated earlier on would have more games to earn points, but may nto be as good as team eliminated later on. I prefer the lottery but this would be interesting too.

Even then, the players aren't going to play any harder in those games after they've been eliminated. They would still be playing for an unknown 18 year old who might never be their teammate. The same injury/surgery issue would be there too. Also potentially altering the trade deadline. Can't get the 2nd round pick, you need to keep the 30 year old UFA that you won't re-sign because you have to win more games today.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Kopitar and Doughty with their NMC's care what the GM or fans think. I'm sure they do. What are fans going to do, boo them? What's the GM going to do, suspend them, hurting the team in games that count in the standings during the normal season?



What if someone gets hurt during these extra games for the next 8 months, and then your team doesn't even win the tournament? What's fun about that?



The guaranteed contracts also help with that. If I get hurt at the Olympics, I still get paid by my NHL owner. Like you say, at least that's for national glory. This draft tournament would be for a guy that might take your job. He's not even a teammate yet either.

These guys on bad teams all start making offseason plans. You suffer through a rough 6 months, only to play more games? These guys want to go away and do whatever they do with their money. They don't want to play more games for the #1 pick. We watch this team sometimes have trouble finding motivation to show up when they're mathematically alive for a playoff spot. It's a great idea for a little tournament in theory, but very impractical. There are so many things that would never allow such a tournament to get off the ground. Owners wouldn't want to pay the players even more money somehow, let alone all the player issues. Would the players in this draft tournament make more than whatever the share is that players get for winning the Cup? That would probably get some players upset if it were so.

I cant argue with those points. It does seem the negatives out weight the positives.. though I do think some of those issues could get resolved, I think the there are enough negatives to sink the orig idea. My main goal is to get away from tank mode - and there was another proposal in here that made a lot of sense to me.

 

[Brodeur]

The "points after being eliminated" / Adam Gold Plan is interesting in theory, but there's a couple of problems:

1. Schedule imbalance. There could be two roughly equal teams, but one team happens to finish up with a road heavy schedule while the other finishes with a home stand.

2. It sounds better on paper, than in actual application. The conferences could be slightly imbalanced. After a quick look, Arizona was eliminated March 14th last year, while Buffalo was eliminated March 17th. While the two teams had similar records, Arizona would have had a game in hand to pad their "points after elimination" total. Even the worst teams will only have about a dozen games left on their schedules when they've been mathematically eliminated. That's a pretty small sample size and almost still random for the sake of being random.

 

[KINGS17]

So, it sounds like everyone is on board with the Russian roulette tournament. Maybe the front office sacrifice can be a fan vote. That would generate some interest.

 

[Brodeur]

And just to derail the thread a little bit, I figured this is a good excuse to tell one of my favorite random draft lottery anecdotes. From 1995 to 2012, the winner of the NHL draft lottery could only move up a maximum of four spots. Why did the NHL put in that rule? Blame Penny Hardaway, Shaquille O'Neal, and the Orlando Magic.

During the CBA negotiation of 1994-95, the NHL wanted to institute a draft lottery after Ottawa's owner openly bragged about tanking on purpose to get Alexandre Daigle in 1993. The new CBA was ratified in January 1995, but the NHL forgot to outline the lottery rules until May 1995. Naturally at that point, there were conflicts of interests as the season was almost over.

Meanwhile in the NBA, the Orlando Magic were the top seed in the Eastern Conference and en route to an NBA Finals appearance. Orlando famously won the 1993 NBA Draft Lottery while only having a 1 in 66 chance. They would draft then trade Chris Webber for Penny Hardaway and a boat load of picks.

In the moment, it looked like Orlando was set to be a contender for the next decade. Various NHL GMs were afraid of the "Orlando" scenario happening in the NHL where the best non-playoff team lucked into the top pick. So the NHL decided to put the limitation in and several team officials grumbled that the lottery was mostly pointless.

As it was, the Kings won that first draft lottery and moved from #7 to #3. Would NHL history have been drastically different had there been no limitation and LA got to draft Bryan Berard instead of Aki Berg?

 

[Sol]

So, it sounds like everyone is on board with the Russian roulette tournament. Maybe the front office sacrifice can be a fan vote. That would generate some interest.

Blood eagle the fan choice.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Why would players try and win this tournament knowing that one of them is probably losing their roster spot, to the first overall drafted prospect, if they win?

Players only are paid for the regular season, so why play in this tournament for free?

 

[kovacro]

Put all the non playoff teams GM's in a wrestling ring and have a battle royal to determine who gets top pick. No holds barred, foreign objects allowed.