better player and individual career Linden or Carbonneau

who was the better player and has the better indidiual career?


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wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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This came up in the other thread around these parts and I want people to look back on their careers and state which one was the better player and career.

If one thinks that being any part of a SC team trumps never winning a SC then please state so as I really want to compare them as individuals.

I mean Kevin Lowe has 6 SC rings but he isn't ever considered a better Dman than Shea Weber is he?
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Apples and oranges.

Linden was not great at backchecking.

They have leadership and captaincy in common.

I - as a Canucks fan and B.C. boy - was a huge Linden fan but after '94 (awesome 2-goal game 7 performance in the Finals) i became disappointed with the direction of his career.

Carbo is a legend, impressive as hell from Montreal to Dallas. He had a special set of skills that did not often translate into scoring statistics.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,272
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Wow, tough one. I mean, I loved Linden from 1989 to 1996, which is a good chunk of time (7 straight seasons). Check out his goals' totals in those first seven seasons:
30
21 (sophomore slump + missed 7 games)
33
31
33
32
18 in 48-game season (pacing for -- wait for it! -- 31)
33

Just incredible consistency, and then in the playoffs he was even more impressive with 80 points (+12) in 79 games, which is noticeably better than his RS scoring. I think he was pretty good defensively in these years, and when you factor in scoring consistency plus leadership he was quite a rare and valuable player.

The problem with Linden's career, of course, is that he suddenly declined at age 26 (when the Canucks hired Tom Renney to coach). Nobody else was scoring much that season either (including Bure), so maybe you give Linden a mulligan for that one season... but then he hit rock-bottom, along with the franchise, in 1997-98, with 7 goals in 42 games and then was rail-roaded out of town.

And, despite his appearance on the 1998 Olympic team, Linden was basically a third-liner from 1996-97 through 2007-08. On the c.2001 to 2004 Canucks team that was strong, Linden wasn't yet an old-timer, but his results don't look too good. (For example, on the 2003-04 team, he was the third center in scoring and was the only Canuck among the top-16 scorers to be a 'minus' on the season.)

At the end of the day -- and seemingly in contrast to his size and strength, which should have favored him -- we have to conclude, I think, that Linden was one of the players who did not adapt well to the "dead-puck era", and could not remain anywhere near All-Star level in that period.


Carbonneau won more, had a longer period of high-level play (albeit not offensively, which is a rarer skill), and was a Selke-God (not that I take that award too seriously) from 1984-85 through 1993-94. It should be noted, however, that Carbonneau was ignored in Selke voting for most of his final six seasons.

Finally, we have to acknowledge that Carbonneau is now enshrined in the Hockey Hall of Participation.


So, yeah, if we were looking at each player's first seven seasons, I'll go with Linden quite confidently. (Yeah, I know, Carbonneau got his Stanley Cup in his third season, but does anyone think his playoff performance in '86 -- though great -- was more impressive than Linden's in '94? I don't.)

But if we're looking at the entire career, I think I have to go with Carbonneau. It's a little unfair, because Carbonneau played on better teams in the back-half of his career, and also since Carbonneau was never a big offensive threat (not to say he didn't have offensive skill, because he did), his numbers don't look as deflated as Linden's do later on (Carbonneau also played only three seasons in the Dead-Puck Era, and in one of those he was a minus.... on a 114-point team!).

So, the comparison is a little skewed in Carbonneau's favor, but I think I'm gonna go with him anyway, just for sustained consistency and long-term contribution to winning teams. (But make no mistake -- Linden from 1988-89 through 1995-96 was a beast.)
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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If Linden didn't fall of a massive cliff perhaps he could have had a really impressive (non-HHOF-ish) career, who knows.

Carbo had a better career, but he also didn't have to endure a sadistic person like Mike Keenan coming in treating him like shit and then trading him right into the arms of Mike Milbury.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,666
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It won't be the last time that I have a different opinion about a player than the consensus here.

No doubt the "legendary status" of Carbs is greater league wide while Linden's reputation is more localized.

In non drunk hindsight Markus Naslund, a fringe HHOFer, would have probably been a better example, although Carbs and Linden are a better comparison.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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It won't be the last time that I have a different opinion about a player than the consensus here.

No doubt the "legendary status" of Carbs is greater league wide while Linden's reputation is more localized.

In non drunk hindsight Markus Naslund, a fringe HHOFer, would have probably been a better example, although Carbs and Linden are a better comparison.

i only had a little wine tonight but i would choose linden over markus naslund 400x out of 400.

but maybe we should just consolidate and (shudder) perhaps a carbonneau vs turgeon poll/thread is in order?
 
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wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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i only had a little wine tonight but i would choose linden over markus naslund 400x out of 400.

but maybe we should just consolidate and (shudder) perhaps a carbonneau vs turgeon poll/thread is in order?

Like I said previously polls interest me much less than actual discussion of players.

Your post is pretty sharp though.
 

double5son10

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
1,150
458
Denver
If Linden didn't fall of a massive cliff perhaps he could have had a really impressive (non-HHOF-ish) career, who knows.

Carbo had a better career, but he also didn't have to endure a sadistic person like Mike Keenan coming in treating him like **** and then trading him right into the arms of Mike Milbury.

Carbonneau also played for Keenan, in St. Louis. Traded after a season for a near-the-end Paul Broten, because Carbonneau wasn't one of Keenan's guys. Didn't suffer the indignity of Milbury though (or Houle for that matter; poor Trevor), and lucky for Guy he went instead to a Dallas team managed by his former linemate, who well understood his value.
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
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I chose Carbonneau here. Look, let's not have such short memories here. Gainey was for a long time the only pure defensive forward in the HHOF right? But the general idea was that if they were ever going to induct another one that Carbonneau was the first choice. I'll bet last week if we had a discussion on this before the induction announcement there would be a lot of people who would agree he at least has a case.

Slightly off topic, I didn't realize Carbonneau was such an insane scorer in the QMJHL and then his two years in the minors he scored at a high pace too.

But with Linden you've got up until 1996 and then a big drop off afterwards. He collided with John Leclair early in the 1996-'97 season and that changed things I think because for whatever reason he wasn't the same player. I have often said that if Linden and Modano who were drafted beside each other in 1988 had a poll done on them in 1996 on who had a better career that I might just pick Linden. That's not crazy to think. But for the rest of his career he didn't make a big impact. Carbonneau was impactful for a long time. Basically for a 10 year span was more or less a Selke finalist every year. Try to find that somewhere. We have, his name is Bergeron and we all know he's going to the HHOF. If the HHOF was picking another defensive-minded guy he was the first choice. I just hope it doesn't open up a can of worms, but his career is hardly one that doesn't at least make a case.
 

Thenameless

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
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I think Trevor Linden was actually better during their respective primes. Just perusing their career stats and Linden scored more points in his rookie year (among other seasons), than Carbonneau did in his best year. We all know of Carbonneau's defensive prowess, but Linden was well above average in this respect, and he was also more physical. He's also way more iconic to his team than Carbonneau is to an obviously icon-laden team like the Habs. If he had won just the one Cup in '94, I'd actually say he had the better career. Kirk McLean had an awesome run, and Bure was a flashy superstar, but that was Linden's team and he was its heart and soul.

But if I could end my career as one of them, it would have to be Carbonneau - I want Cup wins, and he has three. Winning counts, and while he did play on better teams, he wasn't exactly a passenger on those Cup winning teams.

So, better player in his prime: Linden
Better individual career: Carbonneau
 
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