Better peak: Howe vs Lemieux?

daver

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Nobody knows how many points crosby would score in the 80s. Goals per game shouldnt be the only criteria. How much ice time was hull or howe given in thier respective best seasons? In 1998-99, the nhl only averaged 5.3 goals per game, yet the top 10 scorers were all very productive offensively because they were getting 23-27 minutes of ice time per game.

If nobody knows how many Crosby could score, then how could you know how many points Howe scores in other years?

You are the one who brought up GPG and now want to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

If you don't know Hull's and Howe's icetimes, why are you bringing it up?

With the info we do know, Howe was clearly more dominant than Hull was.
 

canucks4ever

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If nobody knows how many Crosby could score, then how could you know how many points Howe scores in other years?

You are the one who brought up GPG and now want to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

If you don't know Hull's and Howe's icetimes, why are you bringing it up?

With the info we do know, Howe was clearly more dominant than Hull was.
It's not my duty to answer your questions and explain my supposed narrative. I stated facts, gordie's point totals were broken left and right in his own era. I Don't care if he dominated his peers.

I didn't say I know how many points gordie would score. [MOD]

You don't know Gordie Howe's ice time because you never saw him play.
 
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bobholly39

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i think this was the most recent time machine thread?

Coyotes star Oliver Ekman Larsson tries on 80's equipment

^ really makes you think...

I saw that.

My position has always pretty much been the same. In a vacuum there are some improvements in hockey and players since the 50s. In an absolute sense - i don't think its crazy to suggest a Sidney Crosby is "better" than Gordie Howe was, for example. But someone like...Derrick Brassard? Howe would still be above.

I think if you bring a Gordie Howe into today's league and say "GO" he'll look like the worst player on the ice.
I think if you bring Gordie Howe into today's league in May - give him the summer to train and watch videos of current day NHL, give him a full training camp worth of training and getting familiar with newer equipment - he'll probably dominate the league once season starts. Will he be the absolute best player #1? Maybe, but at the very least he'd be near the top.

Gretzky and Lemieux are even more recent so there's less of an adjustment with them as 80s hockey is closer to today. You could practically yell "GO" and they would still do great.
 
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Thenameless

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Gretzky and Lemieux are even more recent so there's less of an adjustment with them as 80s hockey is closer to today. You could practically yell "GO" and they would still do great.

Just fifteen years ago in 2003, Lemieux still got 91 points in 67 games. Ask a prime Lemieux to lace 'em up in October later this year and I'm pretty sure Connor McDavid is gunning for second in the scoring race.
 
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JackSlater

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Just fifteen years ago in 2003, Lemieux still got 91 points in 67 games. Ask a prime Lemieux to lace 'em up in October later this year and I'm pretty sure Connor McDavid is gunning for second in the scoring race.

It is pretty convenient in these discussions that a broken down shell of Mario Lemieux was still likely the best scorer in hockey as late as 2003.
 

quoipourquoi

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i think this was the most recent time machine thread?

Coyotes star Oliver Ekman Larsson tries on 80's equipment

^ really makes you think...

Reminds me of those YouTube videos of kids being handed a cassette tape and not knowing what to do with it.

Like... I knew equipment had changed for the better, but the arc on his one-timer relative to what I know he can do scares me. Maybe it's because I don't play as a skater that often, but holding my signed Dave Lowry Titan stick compared to playing with my feather-lite Sherwood that I bought two years back doesn't make me feel like a caveman.

I'll have to check the hockey store to test out OEL's Easton... which I suppose would be the equivalent of those YouTube videos showing grandparents' reactions to Childish Gambino.
 
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Big Phil

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In their prime, Howe vs. Lemieux? Hmmm................that's a tough one because you always figure only Gretzky - and perhaps Orr - can outclass Lemieux at his absolute best (1988-'93). Maybe that is still true, but Howe in the early to mid 1950s at least makes it an argument. Overall Howe had a better career than Lemieux, but at their best? I wouldn't want to tick off either one of them by picking the other because they could make you pay when you play against them. Tough one, but I probably side with Lemieux.

That being said, both in their prime today are the best players in the NHL. Come on, Mario won a scoring title while missing 24 games, AND while fighting cancer. This was a pretty darn good season in the NHL too with lots of players peaking and hitting their prime. Yet Mario blew them all out of the water. If he outscores a prime Lafontaine and Yzerman by a large degree then why doesn't he do it to McDavid, Giroux, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Malkin and Crosby today? (Spoiler alert...........he does)
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I saw that.

My position has always pretty much been the same. In a vacuum there are some improvements in hockey and players since the 50s. In an absolute sense - i don't think its crazy to suggest a Sidney Crosby is "better" than Gordie Howe was, for example. But someone like...Derrick Brassard? Howe would still be above.

I think if you bring a Gordie Howe into today's league and say "GO" he'll look like the worst player on the ice.
I think if you bring Gordie Howe into today's league in May - give him the summer to train and watch videos of current day NHL, give him a full training camp worth of training and getting familiar with newer equipment - he'll probably dominate the league once season starts. Will he be the absolute best player #1? Maybe, but at the very least he'd be near the top.

Gretzky and Lemieux are even more recent so there's less of an adjustment with them as 80s hockey is closer to today. You could practically yell "GO" and they would still do great.

I don't agree with this.

In the original 06 era, everyone played defense. Everyone fought their own battles. Today everyone plays defense. Few goons left, more responsibility on the individual. In the 80's defense seemed optional for the top offensive players. Goons were pretty much an arms race, for protection (and to sell tickets). Consider the 1987-88 Oilers had 4 players with over 200 minutes in penalties. Tikkanen also had 153, Messier 103 and Kelly Buchberger had 81 minutes in 19 games. They were 12th in the League in PIM.
 

Asheville

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I don't agree with this.

In the original 06 era, everyone played defense. Everyone fought their own battles. Today everyone plays defense. Few goons left, more responsibility on the individual. In the 80's defense seemed optional for the top offensive players. Goons were pretty much an arms race, for protection (and to sell tickets). Consider the 1987-88 Oilers had 4 players with over 200 minutes in penalties. Tikkanen also had 153, Messier 103 and Kelly Buchberger had 81 minutes in 19 games. They were 12th in the League in PIM.

Hmmm and who showed up at that exact time whose dominance was so Earth-shattering from the get-go that it changed that once-prevailing idea that everyone should play defense and that it's better to allow an scoring freak of nature to be just that?

LOL you say it like it is a bad thing.

And what's with this passive-aggressive remark about "more responsibility on the individual"? What exactly were Gretzky and Lemieux doing? Not singlehandedly spearheading championship squads, both professionally and internationally?
 
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The Panther

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In their prime, Howe vs. Lemieux? Hmmm................that's a tough one because you always figure only Gretzky - and perhaps Orr - can outclass Lemieux at his absolute best (1988-'93). Maybe that is still true, but Howe in the early to mid 1950s at least makes it an argument. Overall Howe had a better career than Lemieux, but at their best? I wouldn't want to tick off either one of them by picking the other because they could make you pay when you play against them. Tough one, but I probably side with Lemieux.
I agree with all of this.

Lemieux almost certainly (not entirely certainly, mind) has the higher peak than Howe, when we're looking at when he was in the line-up for most of c.1987 to 1996.

Conversely, Howe almost certainly has the better overall career and, unless you value peak-for-short-periods above all else, was the superior player in a general sense.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a time-machined 1991-ish Mario Lemieux in today's NHL (with today's equipment) would utterly dominate the League. In fact, he might look more dominant today (though he wouldn't score as much) than he did in his own time, since there is far less rough stuff now than then. The only challenge for players of the past moving into the future is always going to be the increase in overall speed with ever-shortening shifts (and less power-plays), so there would be fewer "easy" points. There would less time for Lemieux and less free space, but he would have a much easier time stick-handling and moving to the front of the net.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Hmmm and who showed up at that exact time whose dominance was so Earth-shattering from the get-go that it changed that once-prevailing idea that everyone should play defense and that it's better to allow an scoring freak of nature to be just that?

LOL you say it like it is a bad thing.

And what's with this passive-aggressive remark about "more responsibility on the individual"? What exactly were Gretzky and Lemieux doing? Not singlehandedly spearheading championship squads, both professionally and internationally?

In terms of responsibility on the individual, I was speaking in terms of physicality, that is, taking care of yourself on the ice. Sorry, I probably didn't make that clear.

But I don't understand your point about Gretzky & Lemieux. My only point was the current NHL is more like the original 06 than the 80's were. No judgement was made on what era was better or worse. But clearly the 80's were different.
 

Asheville

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In terms of responsibility on the individual, I was speaking in terms of physicality, that is, taking care of yourself on the ice. Sorry, I probably didn't make that clear.

Taking care of yourself? Maybe a player can "take care" of himself in more ways than you find acceptable. Maybe you don't have to hit, elbow and punch others to "protect" yourself. Maybe being shifty and elusive, to the point that legendary tough guy Denis Potvin describes you as wrapping one's arms around fog, might be how one protects themselves. Maybe battling through several players water-skiing off your back or numerous vicious slashes without pulling a Mike Ribeiro-esque dive to score or make a play can be protecting yourself. Mario and Wayne did plenty on their own to make a play or remain in a play. Neanderthal tactics aren't the only methods by which one can protect themselves without the aide of a Semenko or Caufield, they were just nice insurance policies.

My only point was the current NHL is more like the original 06 than the 80's were......clearly the 80's were different.

Meaning what, exactly?
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Taking care of yourself? Maybe a player can "take care" of himself in more ways than you find acceptable. Maybe you don't have to hit, elbow and punch others to "protect" yourself. Maybe being shifty and elusive, to the point that legendary tough guy Denis Potvin describes you as wrapping one's arms around fog, might be how one protects themselves. Maybe battling through several players water-skiing off your back or numerous vicious slashes without pulling a Mike Ribeiro-esque dive to score or make a play can be protecting yourself. Mario and Wayne did plenty on their own to make a play or remain in a play. Neanderthal tactics aren't the only methods by which one can protect themselves without the aide of a Semenko or Caufield, they were just nice insurance policies.



Meaning what, exactly?

Here is what I was responding to (by the way, not one of your posts):

Gretzky and Lemieux are even more recent so there's less of an adjustment with them as 80s hockey is closer to today. You could practically yell "GO" and they would still do great.

The poster was stating it would be an easier transition for Gretzky & Lemieux to today's game coming from the more recent 80's. As opposed to Howe coming in from the original 06 era.

I disagreed. Meaning, I consider the style of play in the original 06 era closer to today's game than the 80's style of play.
 
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Killion

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And why is that?

Through the 50's & 60's there was much more of a propensity towards defensive hockey. Toronto in particular under Imlach. System. Total Team Defense. Indeed, pundits, fans & players alike bemoaned the somewhat moribund state of the game with its close checking, adherence to defense & disciplined play. Staid, conservative play. With Kelly & Howe, Richard & Harvey there was some breaking of the log jams, amp'd up with Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita & Pierre Pilote, Chicago playing a much more wide open game, the hottest ticket in the NHL during the waning years of the 6 team era. Old axiom, Defense & Goaltending Wins Cups. Montreal & Toronto essentially exchanging them but for that one blip in 61. So sure, the modern era with its low scoring defensive game, systems... in many respects similar to the 06 era. The game busting wide open with Expansion, the WHA, influence of international play, the Oilers & Pond Hockey etc. Game in flux. Business model radically altered with the Universal Draft, end of the sponsorship era, introduction of the Cap & rule changes etc.
 
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BruinDust

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I can't speak to Howe's peak having never saw him play, but Lemieux's peak was the best offensive hockey player I ever saw.
 

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