Better peak: Howe vs Lemieux?

[Dennis Bonvie]

I've been saying this for years. But to some people "Hart" and "Art Ross" are essentially the same thing.

Howe is the best two-way forward in the Top 10 of All Time. There is nobody in the Top 10 that comes even close. THAT (and his longevity) is what makes him superior to Lemieux in my eyes. Then you go down, down, down that list until you see Makarov (Top 10-15), Yzerman, Sakic, Messier, Trottier, and Mikita.

Don't forget Bobby Clarke.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So do the hockey writers and the players.

I don't think the players do.

 

[K Fleur]

I don't think the players do.

Player voting for the Lindsay has historically been heavily correlated with the Art Ross trophy.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Player voting for the Lindsay has historically been heavily correlated with the Art Ross trophy.

I'd like to dispute that, but the facts are on your side.

 

[daver]

I've been saying this for years. But to some people "Hart" and "Art Ross" are essentially the same thing.

Howe is the best two-way forward in the Top 10 of All Time. There is nobody in the Top 10 that comes even close. THAT (and his longevity) is what makes him superior to Lemieux in my eyes.

What qualifies a player as being 2-way or more specifically what disqualifies a player?

And is there a point when one of the ways, offense, become so dominant as to lessen the importance of defense, especially when talking about forwards?

 

[JackSlater]

I prefer Lemieux's peak, though I recognize that Howe almost certainly had more value due to durability.

 

[Canadiens1958]

What qualifies a player as being 2-way or more specifically what disqualifies a player?

And is there a point when one of the ways, offense, become so dominant as to lessen the importance of defense, especially when talking about forwards?

Losing or contributing more to losing while scoring than to winning.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

What qualifies a player as being 2-way or more specifically what disqualifies a player?

And is there a point when one of the ways, offense, become so dominant as to lessen the importance of defense, especially when talking about forwards?

I would say a player who is better than average offensively and defensively.

And of course there is a point where dominance of one lessen the impact of the other. If not we wouldn't be considering Gretzky & Lemieux for the top 100, let alone top 4.

 

[Sentinel]

So do the hockey writers and the players.

Players -- not necessarily. Yzerman won Lindsay over both Gretzky and Lemieux.

Coaches -- certainly not. They traditionally prefer more responsible two-way forwards. Had Scotty Bowman let Yzerman and Fedorov just run around Jagr / Bure-style, their stats would look infinitely more gaudy, with no Cups to show for. Kinda like mid-90s Penguins.

 

[daver]

Players -- not necessarily. Yzerman won Lindsay over both Gretzky and Lemieux.

Coaches -- certainly not. They traditionally prefer more responsible two-way forwards. Had Scotty Bowman let Yzerman and Fedorov just run around Jagr / Bure-style, their stats would look infinitely more gaudy, with no Cups to show for. Kinda like mid-90s Penguins.

As opposed to the early 90s Pens.

Do you think that Mario, when it counted, ran around Jagr/Bure style or did he adjust when more was on the line?

 

[Thenameless]

Players -- not necessarily. Yzerman won Lindsay over both Gretzky and Lemieux.

Coaches -- certainly not. They traditionally prefer more responsible two-way forwards. Had Scotty Bowman let Yzerman and Fedorov just run around Jagr / Bure-style, their stats would look infinitely more gaudy, with no Cups to show for. Kinda like mid-90s Penguins.

They say they prefer responsible two-way forwards in public, probably to keep their players honest. But if you read between the lines, there's a different truth:

1. If you're familiar with the Al Arbout/Bill Torrey story, Arbour asked for the more offensively gifted Bossy to be drafted instead of the more responsible Foster.

2. When Bowman was asked which player he'd take first all-time, he replied with "you can't really go wrong with Lemieux". It doesn't necessarily mean that he would take him first, but at least he would warrant some consideration.

3. It's well known that Don Cherry dislikes the Francophone players. Yet, he very much admires Guy Lafleur, even though he did so much damage to the Bruins. Lafleur was anything but defensively responsible.

In short, defensively responsible players make coaching less stressful - less grey hairs. But these guys aren't stupid. They also know that cream-of-the-crop, best-of-the-best offensive players are the go-to guys when it comes to winning championships.

 

[Canadiens1958]

As opposed to the early 90s Pens.

Do you think that Mario, when it counted, ran around Jagr/Bure style or did he adjust when more was on the line?

1993 game 7 vs Islanders, OT goal by David Volek.Watch and tell us:

 

[Sentinel]

Bowman certainly learned that lesson. He was far more two-way oriented with his next club. Hell, he made Shanahan play left-wing lock.

 

[Thenameless]

Bowman certainly learned that lesson. He was far more two-way oriented with his next club. Hell, he made Shanahan play left-wing lock.

Bowman was always defensively oriented, but made allowances for Lafleur and Lemieux. It would have been fun to see what Fedorov could have done in Detroit if Bowman had allowed him to play all-out offense. I was expecting so much more after his 93/94 season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bowman was always defensively oriented, but made allowances for Lafleur and Lemieux. It would have been fun to see what Fedorov could have done in Detroit if Bowman had allowed him to play all-out offense. I was expecting so much more after his 93/94 season.

Please don't make it seem like Lafleur & Mario were on the same level of defensive indifference.

For one thing, Lemieux is a center which means he would have more defensive responsibility. Lafleur was not bad defensively for a winger.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

1993 game 7 vs Islanders, OT goal by David Volek.Watch and tell us:

congratulations, i laughed out loud

 

[Thenameless]

Please don't make it seem like Lafleur & Mario were on the same level of defensive indifference.

For one thing, Lemieux is a center which means he would have more defensive responsibility. Lafleur was not bad defensively for a winger.

You see my avatar right? He's my favorite player, so I've watched a lot of Lafleur. Quite a few times I watched him with my own two eyes, remembering thinking to myself "it's good he scores lots of points". In one instance in particular, the Habs got caught on a 2-on-1 against, and the one guy who happened to get caught back there was Lafleur (yes, good for him for being the one back there I guess). Anyways, on this particular play, Lafleur fell while skating backwards and the other team ended up scoring.

I also remembering reading about Henri Richard staring down Lafleur for lack of defensive responsibility while Lafleur was still early in his career.

Defensive acumen certainly was not a Lafleur forte.

 

[Staniowski]

You see my avatar right? He's my favorite player, so I've watched a lot of Lafleur. Quite a few times I watched him with my own two eyes, remembering thinking to myself "it's good he scores lots of points". In one instance in particular, the Habs got caught on a 2-on-1 against, and the one guy who happened to get caught back there was Lafleur (yes, good for him for being the one back there I guess). Anyways, on this particular play, Lafleur fell while skating backwards and the other team ended up scoring.

I also remembering reading about Henri Richard staring down Lafleur for lack of defensive responsibility while Lafleur was still early in his career.

Defensive acumen certainly was not a Lafleur forte.

Yeah, Lafleur wasn't great defensively, but he didn't have to be most of the time. Lemaire said he and Shutt implemented a NZT-type system between the 2 of them, and just let Lafleur do whatever he wanted. The Habs were fortunate to have Lemaire playing with Lafleur, and to have guys like Robinson, Savard, and Langway on defense.

 

[Thenameless]

Yeah, Lafleur wasn't great defensively, but he didn't have to be most of the time. Lemaire said he and Shutt implemented a NZT-type system between the 2 of them, and just let Lafleur do whatever he wanted. The Habs were fortunate to have Lemaire playing with Lafleur, and to have guys like Robinson, Savard, and Langway on defense.

Yes, part of the magic of Lafleur was not having Bowman tugging on the reigns too tightly. You need to let a player like him create.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You see my avatar right? He's my favorite player, so I've watched a lot of Lafleur. Quite a few times I watched him with my own two eyes, remembering thinking to myself "it's good he scores lots of points". In one instance in particular, the Habs got caught on a 2-on-1 against, and the one guy who happened to get caught back there was Lafleur (yes, good for him for being the one back there I guess). Anyways, on this particular play, Lafleur fell while skating backwards and the other team ended up scoring.

I also remembering reading about Henri Richard staring down Lafleur for lack of defensive responsibility while Lafleur was still early in his career.

Defensive acumen certainly was not a Lafleur forte.

1974 playoffs against NYR game 1. Bowman had formed a line Shutt, Henri Richard, Lafleur. After the stare down Lafleur was replaced by Claude Larose. Shutt's break-out series with the Canadiens.

 

[shazariahl]

According to hockey-reference

Gretzky played 1487 games and was on the ice for 2285 goals against (1.53 against per game)

Lemieux played 915 games and was on the ice for 1364 goals against (1.49 against per game)



Granted those are just raw totals with little context, but it looks like this is another area where Lemieux comes up short to Gretzky.

True, but this is partly because Gretzky killed a lot more penalties than Lemieux. That's why despite being on the ice for more goals against than any other player, Gretzky's +/- is still the highest of any forward in history, and the 4th highest overall. You can't really punish a guy for being a penalty killer, which is why +/- doesn't count against you for that. With your method, of just straight goals against while on the ice, you are punishing PKers, especially 1st team PKers. You're basically saying Gretzky would have been better defensively if he hadn't been used defensively.

Granted, both Gretzky and Lemieux killed a fair share of penalties in the 80's (it seemed like every team thought having their best offensive player out there was a good idea). The difference is, that Gretzky also continued that with much longer, since he was a 1st unit PKer most his time in LA as well.

 

[Killion]

1974 playoffs against NYR game 1. Bowman had formed a line Shutt, Henri Richard, Lafleur. After the stare down Lafleur was replaced by Claude Larose. Shutt's break-out series with the Canadiens.

Neither Lafleur nor Shutt were doing much for their first couple of seasons in Montreal, skating with the Black Aces under the direction of Floyd Curry, a man rarely mentioned outside of the more knowledgeable circle of Canadiens fans & historians... who also had under his charge Larry Robinson amongst others...

As for Steve Shutt "breaking out"... its my understanding that much like Guy Lafleur their being paired with the veteran Peter Mahovlich was key, in that Pete gave them the confidence they needed to succeed while guys like Henri Richard & Floyd Curry worked with Shutt & Lafleur... for those who dont know, Floyd Curry was a Defensive Forward par excellence who played on a line called the Wrecking Crew with the Habs late 40's & 50's, and who went on to have a varied & interesting career with the Canadiens off-ice in various capacities over the years, very useful guy.

It was Curry who traveled to Halifax, Scouted all of the Voyageurs games, reporting back to Montreal the various prospects progress & for example, it was he who having watched Dryden turning away 40-50-60 shots a night at the AHL level, winning games for the Voyageurs they had no business winning then recommended he immediately be promoted as even on the worst team in the League, Dryden could very likely take them to the SC Finals. Curry a Vice-President of the team, "Travel Manager".... Jack of All Trades.... unsung hero.... Its my understanding he did play a pretty big role in forging the iron backbones Larry, Guy & Steve would need to succeed at the NHL level, a tough taskmaster as sort of personal coach & mentor of the Rookies, Black Aces.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Neither Lafleur nor Shutt were doing much for their first couple of seasons in Montreal, skating with the Black Aces under the direction of Floyd Curry, a man rarely mentioned outside of the more knowledgeable circle of Canadiens fans & historians... who also had under his charge Larry Robinson amongst others...

As for Steve Shutt "breaking out"... its my understanding that much like Guy Lafleur their being paired with the veteran Peter Mahovlich was key, in that Pete gave them the confidence they needed to succeed while guys like Henri Richard & Floyd Curry worked with Shutt & Lafleur... for those who dont know, Floyd Curry was a Defensive Forward par excellence who played on a line called the Wrecking Crew with the Habs late 40's & 50's, and who went on to have a varied & interesting career with the Canadiens off-ice in various capacities over the years, very useful guy.

It was Curry who traveled to Halifax, Scouted all of the Voyageurs games, reporting back to Montreal the various prospects progress & for example, it was he who having watched Dryden turning away 40-50-60 shots a night at the AHL level, winning games for the Voyageurs they had no business winning then recommended he immediately be promoted as even on the worst team in the League, Dryden could very likely take them to the SC Finals. Curry a Vice-President of the team, "Travel Manager".... Jack of All Trades.... unsung hero.... Its my understanding he did play a pretty big role in forging the iron backbones Larry, Guy & Steve would need to succeed at the NHL level, a tough taskmaster as sort of personal coach & mentor of the Rookies, Black Aces.

Happened the next season after the 1974 playoffs. Frank Mahovlich left for the WHA.

Interesting aspect of Pete Mahovlich's career. His best seasons with the Canadiens were when he had a Maple Leaf system developed LW.

 

[Killion]

Happened the next season after the 1974 playoffs. Frank Mahovlich left for the WHA.

Interesting aspect of Pete Mahovlich's career. His best seasons with the Canadiens were when he had a Maple Leaf system developed LW.

Ya. Shutt one of the last. Joined the Toronto Marlboros at Pee Wee from Goulding Park in Willowdale, playing for the Marlies right on up to Midget at which point he also played for the Jr. B North York Rangers & Jr. A Marlboro's during his Midget year... followed by 3 seasons with the Jr.A Marlboros. Frank Bonello who went on to become the Marlies GM was Coach of the team...

Frank previously Coaching the Jr. B Markham Waxers, feeder to the Marlboros as were the North York Rangers during that period.... Bonello himself a former player, top shelf amateur who had had a decent Junior career himself, member of the 1958 Whitby Dunlops who won the World Championships. Member of the Etobicoke Sports Hall of Fame....

The year after Shutt left, the recently retired George Armstrong named Coach with Frank Bonello becoming F/T GM and who I believe remained in that role until the mid to late 80's. Ballard had a softspot for the Marlies & didnt mess with them nor with Frank Bonello the way he did with the Leafs.... and oops... we seem to veering waaaaaaaaay off topic here... sorry Gang.......

... so.... as for BETTER PEAK - HOWE or LEMIEUX..... Its a wash. Par. Just depends if your pickin one or the other & what your specific requirements are... Complimentary players. Who else have you got & so on. Huge factor here, one's a Center. And I dont like comparing Centers to Wingers on any scale.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

According to hockey-reference

Gretzky played 1487 games and was on the ice for 2285 goals against (1.53 against per game)

Lemieux played 915 games and was on the ice for 1364 goals against (1.49 against per game)



Granted those are just raw totals with little context, but it looks like this is another area where Lemieux comes up short to Gretzky.

Indeed, Gretzky played a great many games well past his prime and killed a ton of penalties, contributing to the high amount of goals against.

+/- has its limitations, but seeing Lemieux managing to go -18 in a season where he averaged over 2.0 points per game or only +10 in a 160 point season on a pretty strong team is not a great look.