Best team to not win a cup?

[NYR94]

I'd say that 92-93 Penguins team is one of the best teams I've seen to not win a Cup. Would have been three in a row for them as well.

 

[Talent Analyst]

As I can remember , 2006 Senators was pretty good .

P.S I'm only 16 years old.. I don't know about 2000 and less team ^^

 

[mcphee]

I attempted to answer the question statistically here. Ottawa's 2006 season hasn't changed anything obviously. I go with the '80s Flyers and recent Sens as the best unrewarded teams. Most teams that dominate over a moderate period of time tend to be rewarded.

I look at the Sens of the last 5 years and I think of the late 70's early 80's Montreal Expos. There's never a sense of urgency because you look at the talent and you just believe it's going to happen. Then things change and you're part of a history thread.

 

[Snap Wilson]

I look at the Sens of the last 5 years and I think of the late 70's early 80's Montreal Expos. There's never a sense of urgency because you look at the talent and you just believe it's going to happen. Then things change and you're part of a history thread.

That's a fair analogy. I think the Hank Aaron Braves, consistently among the best teams in the national league and then losing the pennant to the Dodgers or the Cardinals every year.

Unfortunately for Sens fans, they're entering into some unique territory, dominance over a fairly long period with no cup to show for it. Of course, the playoffs are as much a crapshoot as ever.

 

[mcphee]

Unfortunately for Sens fans, they're entering into some unique territory, dominance over a fairly long period with no cup to show for it. Of course, the playoffs are as much a crapshoot as ever.

Good point. The thread subject asked for temas in specific years though I tend to think of teams by era, or whatever time a nucleus is held together. I always think of the Rangers who had strong teams but couldn't get past Boston,Mtl, then Philly.

With the marathon that the playoffs are, it comes down to things falling into place one year more than anything else, probably more of a crapshoot.

 

[mcphee]

For sure. After winning in 61, blackhawks should have won several more from 62 to 71. Were in the finals 5 times (I count being in the last round of the original 6 in 68 & 70 as Finals). Had a power house team with Hull, Mikita, Hall, Pilote, Vasko, Wharram etc. In 63-64, they had 5 players on the fiirst alll star team & one on the second but that year they didn't even make the finals. Seemed to always be out coached & out goalied when the cup was at stake.

I was leafing thru an old John Ferguson biography. In that you're a Bobby Hull fan, I pretty well know your opinion of my old favorite. Fergy wasn't much a Hull fan and points a finger at him for some of the Hawks post season problems. It's off topic, but he had some pretty strong opinions about Hull. I wouldn't reccommend you read it, it'd make your blood pressure go up needlessly.

Quite a rivalry though.

 

[Snap Wilson]

I was leafing thru an old John Ferguson biography. In that you're a Bobby Hull fan, I pretty well know your opinion of my old favorite. Fergy wasn't much a Hull fan and points a finger at him for some of the Hawks post season problems. It's off topic, but he had some pretty strong opinions about Hull. I wouldn't reccommend you read it, it'd make your blood pressure go up needlessly.

I think I pointed that finger a while back. Murray didn't want to hear it then, either.

I'd be curious to read what Fergie's specific gripes were.

 

[FmmF3*]

The 04 Flames "mini-dynasty"

 

[mcphee]

I think I pointed that finger a while back. Murray didn't want to hear it then, either.

I'd be curious to read what Fergie's specific gripes were.

There were a few things. fergy had his own definition as to what made up a winner, and he considered Hull more of a whiner. Might've had something to do with Fergy mugging him on occasion, but I'm a fan of #22 and I'll see things through those glasses.

The Fergy punched him when Hull's jaw was wired story was dealt with. Apparently, Fergy had been suspended for clobbering Hull. fergy claims it was clean check, and he was penalized because of Hull's whining. He claims the fight when Hull was wearing the tinsel happened off of a scramble, Hull came at him, and should appreciate that in the scrumm, Hull was tied up, Fergy had a free shot at him and passed it up. He also mentionned that Hull's wife did thank him for throttling her husband, a story I'd heard but assumed was urban myth.

Fergy claimed that even if Hull hadn;t sigend with the WHA, he didn't want him on Team Canada. Sort of a silly claim, I think, I'd of taken him over JP Parise.

That was the gist of it. remember Murray, don't shoot the messenger.

 

[boredmale]

I would go with the Flyers of the mid to late 90s. They seemed to be a goalie away from doing any damage.

 

[pappyline]

There were a few things. fergy had his own definition as to what made up a winner, and he considered Hull more of a whiner. Might've had something to do with Fergy mugging him on occasion, but I'm a fan of #22 and I'll see things through those glasses.

The Fergy punched him when Hull's jaw was wired story was dealt with. Apparently, Fergy had been suspended for clobbering Hull. fergy claims it was clean check, and he was penalized because of Hull's whining. He claims the fight when Hull was wearing the tinsel happened off of a scramble, Hull came at him, and should appreciate that in the scrumm, Hull was tied up, Fergy had a free shot at him and passed it up. He also mentionned that Hull's wife did thank him for throttling her husband, a story I'd heard but assumed was urban myth.

Fergy claimed that even if Hull hadn;t sigend with the WHA, he didn't want him on Team Canada. Sort of a silly claim, I think, I'd of taken him over JP Parise.

That was the gist of it. remember Murray, don't shoot the messenger.

Doesn't bother me and certainly doesn't change my opinion of either Hull or ferguson. sounds like Mr. ferguson is rewriting history to make himself look good. I have never heard Hull comment on the incident. For sure I never heard him make any comments on Ferguson's wife. Ferguson had absolutely no class and was the first goon of the modern era. Any comments he wakes are not worth listening too. Not wanting Hull on Team Canada is just plain stupid. Sounds like ferguson was the whiner to me.

 

[Snap Wilson]

Doesn't bother me and certainly doesn't change my opinion of either Hull or ferguson. sounds like Mr. ferguson is rewriting history to make himself look good. I have never heard Hull comment on the incident. For sure I never heard him make any comments on Ferguson's wife.

He's saying that Hull's wife thanked Ferguson for throttling her husband. Which is too good a story to be true.

 

[pappyline]

He's saying that Hull's wife thanked Ferguson for throttling her husband. Which is too good a story to be true.

Highly unlikely to be true. I can't imagine Mrs. Hull having a conversation with ferguson at the time. As I remember, she looked pretty happy to be Mrs. Hull at the 72 press conference when the WHA handed Bobby his million dollar signing bonus. This was which was a long time after the Hull Ferguson incident (70-71 was ferguson's last year)

fergusons comments on the incident sure sound like jealous whining. Not only was Hull 100 times the player but he also turned out to be tougher (which supposedly was ferguson's raison d'rtre")

 

[mcphee]

Highly unlikely to be true. I can't imagine Mrs. Hull having a conversation with ferguson at the time. As I remember, she looked pretty happy to be Mrs. Hull at the 72 press conference when the WHA handed Bobby his million dollar signing bonus. This was which was a long time after the Hull Ferguson incident (70-71 was ferguson's last year)

fergusons comments on the incident sure sound like jealous whining. Not only was Hull 100 times the player but he also turned out to be tougher (which supposedly was ferguson's raison d'rtre")

The great thing about being a fan is the perspective you saw the events from. Your comments are exactly what mine would've been if my Dad hadn't taken a firm hand to me and made me a fan of the CH.

Fergy played on emotion, and yeah, probably went too far at times. I remember him bopping Norm Ullman on the snout during an All Star game. Norm Ulman ?

Bobby Hull was easily the best player in the 60's until Orr came along, though I remember school yard arguements to the contrary. No idea what I used to back up my claims though.

I suspect you know your leg's being pulled here Murray. These books are usually justification of everything a guy's done in his career and I don't take what Fergy says thru Stan Fischler too seriously, just as I wouldn't take Hull's words as gospel. Gotta admit though, in 66 when I was 11, if I was putting a number on my sweater, 22 would've been my choice.

 

[pappyline]

The great thing about being a fan is the perspective you saw the events from. Your comments are exactly what mine would've been if my Dad hadn't taken a firm hand to me and made me a fan of the CH.

Fergy played on emotion, and yeah, probably went too far at times. I remember him bopping Norm Ullman on the snout during an All Star game. Norm Ulman ?

Bobby Hull was easily the best player in the 60's until Orr came along, though I remember school yard arguements to the contrary. No idea what I used to back up my claims though.

I suspect you know your leg's being pulled here Murray. These books are usually justification of everything a guy's done in his career and I don't take what Fergy says thru Stan Fischler too seriously, just as I wouldn't take Hull's words as gospel. Gotta admit though, in 66 when I was 11, if I was putting a number on my sweater, 22 would've been my choice.

Mcphee, I knew you were trying to get a rise out of me.

You didn't mention that Fischler wrote the book. Then it is undoubtably mostly fiction and really not worthy of comment. It certainly would not have been read much outside of Montreal.

I am surprised that ferguson would have been your favorite on those Canadian teams with all the skilled players they had.

 

[mcphee]

Mcphee, I knew you were trying to get a rise out of me.

You didn't mention that Fischler wrote the book. Then it is undoubtably mostly fiction and really not worthy of comment. It certainly would not have been read much outside of Montreal.

I am surprised that ferguson would have been your favorite on those Canadian teams with all the skilled players they had.

I think kids then would argue about who won the fights. It seemed that every Wednesday, on CTV you got Mtl./Toronto and they were always a mess. Fergy would be chasing someone around, Shack or Brewer, someone would go after him for buzzing Johnny Bower.

Something about the way, the team was full of smooth classy skaters, and Fergy lumbering to keep up, interested me. I've always liked the guys who had to struggle to get there. Doesn't mean I didn't appreciate the Beliveau's and co., Fergy came up as the underdog I guess. Terry Harper was my other favorite.

Claude Provost rightfully got a lot of credit for shadowing Hull, but I always thought Harper was key. He was tall and awkward, and getting past him was a pain in the butt.

 

[Malefic74]

I actually remember reading that Hull himself said the player he had the most trouble with was Terry Harper.

 

[8BostonRocker24]

Here's a couple...

Boston Bruins (late 80's-early/mid 90's)
- made the Stanley Cup Finals twice, loosing both times to the Oilers
- won the Presidents Trophy in 1990
- had 3 consecutive 100 pt seasons
- finished either first or second in their division (flip-flop with Montreal)

Philadelphia Flyers (mid 90's-present)
- made the Stanley Cup Finals once, swept by the Wings
- 7 100 pt seasons since the 1994/95 season
- finished either first or second in their division (flip-flop with New Jersey)

Los Angeles Kings from 88-93
- had Gretzky (nearing the end of his prime) and only got past 2nd round once
- after the Kings lost to Montreal in the finals, they missed the playoffs the next 4 years

Three great picks.
Those Boston Bruins teams were made/built for the regular season. They had a GREAT 1-2 combo with Neely and Oates. If you could stop them, and made the other 3 lines carry the scoring load you'd win every time.

Flyers and Kings are also good picks. Granted, The Wings were great but I was surprised The Flyers couldn't win one game.

 

[raleh]

There were a few things. fergy had his own definition as to what made up a winner, and he considered Hull more of a whiner. Might've had something to do with Fergy mugging him on occasion, but I'm a fan of #22 and I'll see things through those glasses.

The Fergy punched him when Hull's jaw was wired story was dealt with. Apparently, Fergy had been suspended for clobbering Hull. fergy claims it was clean check, and he was penalized because of Hull's whining. He claims the fight when Hull was wearing the tinsel happened off of a scramble, Hull came at him, and should appreciate that in the scrumm, Hull was tied up, Fergy had a free shot at him and passed it up. He also mentionned that Hull's wife did thank him for throttling her husband, a story I'd heard but assumed was urban myth.

Fergy claimed that even if Hull hadn;t sigend with the WHA, he didn't want him on Team Canada. Sort of a silly claim, I think, I'd of taken him over JP Parise.

That was the gist of it. remember Murray, don't shoot the messenger.

That actually really surprises me. I love Fergy just as much as the next habs fan, but if he actually said this that's upsetting haha. Canada was missing their two best players in that series. Hull was probably still the best forward in the world and no matter how much Fergy hated him he had to understand how good he was and that not putting him on team Canada almost cost them the series. Maybe I'm overestimating Hull and Orr, but I think '72 would have been very different with those two in the lineup. I don't know what Tretiak would have done with Hull's shot since they didn't really use the slap shot much in the soviet union at the time. But I guess that's a completely different thread on its own.

 

[pappyline]

That actually really surprises me. I love Fergy just as much as the next habs fan, but if he actually said this that's upsetting haha. Canada was missing their two best players in that series. Hull was probably still the best forward in the world and no matter how much Fergy hated him he had to understand how good he was and that not putting him on team Canada almost cost them the series. Maybe I'm overestimating Hull and Orr, but I think '72 would have been very different with those two in the lineup. I don't know what Tretiak would have done with Hull's shot since they didn't really use the slap shot much in the soviet union at the time. But I guess that's a completely different thread on its own.

Good point. of course Canada would have been much better in 72 with Orr & Hull.

Keeping Hull off the team was pure politics. The Soviets were soon to find out how good he was. In 74 (the forgotten series) as part of the WHA-Team Canada versus the Soviets Hull was the tops in goals & points (7 and 9), both teams included. In game 5 he scored a first period hat trick.

In Canada cup 76 at age 37, he was tied for most goals at 5 with Zhluktov & had one pont less than the leaders who had 9 (Zhuktov, Orr & Potvin).

 

[mcphee]

That actually really surprises me. I love Fergy just as much as the next habs fan, but if he actually said this that's upsetting haha. Canada was missing their two best players in that series. Hull was probably still the best forward in the world and no matter how much Fergy hated him he had to understand how good he was and that not putting him on team Canada almost cost them the series. Maybe I'm overestimating Hull and Orr, but I think '72 would have been very different with those two in the lineup. I don't know what Tretiak would have done with Hull's shot since they didn't really use the slap shot much in the soviet union at the time. But I guess that's a completely different thread on its own.

I think Fergy didn't like the guy and was venting a bit. He seems like a real black and white guy. I don't know that Hull in 72 equalled Hull in 66, but he was Bobby Hull. There was never a day that Dennis was the better player.

Also, though I don't know this, I wouldn't be shocked if the ghost writer didn't much care for Bobby H.

I like reading those books and I still leaf thru them, it's fun. It doesn't mean a whole lot, though. People are never just one thing, but public people seem that way. You can say a lot of wonderful things about Bobby Hull, and probably be pretty critical and all could be true.

 

[mcphee]

Good point. of course Canada would have been much better in 72 with Orr & Hull.

Keeping Hull off the team was pure politics. The Soviets were soon to find out how good he was. In 74 (the forgotten series) as part of the WHA-Team Canada versus the Soviets Hull was the tops in goals & points (7 and 9), both teams included. In game 5 he scored a first period hat trick.

In Canada cup 76 at age 37, he was tied for most goals at 5 with Zhluktov & had one pont less than the leaders who had 9 (Zhuktov, Orr & Potvin).

I bought my Dad the 76 DVD, it was fun, he watched the games like they were new. Hull was scoring, but you could tell watching him, he wasn't what he was, understandably. It was interesting in that you could see how the game had changed from the style he played. He tried his old, wind around the net and pick up speed play a few times, and that just didn't work anymore. Too much speed in the game and he'd get checked. He didn't ever really have space for the big shot, but he buried his chances. Plus, the aura was there. Orr was like that too. He was more damaged than I remembered, couldn't pick up speed in the neutral zone, but could out think anyone else.

 

[raleh]

Very true. The first Gordie Howe bio I ever read seemed to be less about him and more about tearing the Rocket apart (it took me years to forgive Howe for a book that he probably had nothign to do with) . Same thing with Martin Lawrence's Mario Lemieux book where he seemed hell bent on proving that Mario was better than Gretzky.

 

[Big Phil]

I cant believe that no one ever mentioned the '75 Sabres. They tied Philly that year in points with 113. Then lost to them in 6 games. Never made the finals after that but for several years from '73 and on they always seemed to lose to either the Cup winner or the other Cup finalist up until about 1980. Look it up.

They had Perreault, Martin and Robert as the French Connection line, then Danny Gare up front as well. They may not be the best though.

I'd take the 1972 Rangers. By rights at sometime this team should have won a Cup. In three straight years (72-74) they beat the previous years Cup winner in the playoffs. They had four HOFers in Ratelle, Gilbert, Park and Giacomin. Vic Hadfield was at least playing like a HOFer at that time. If Ratelle plays in the 1972 Cup final I think its a close seven game series vs. Boston.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Since I consider Bobby Hull a personal friend, I feel obligated to set the record straight regarding him and Ferguson.

John Ferguson did NOT break Hull's jaw. In the game in Montreal televised nationally, Ferguson visciously cross-checked Hull as Hull was cutting across the ice. The enraged Hull, bleeding from the stick foul, started raining punches on Ferguson and Hull won a slight decision in the fight. Ferguson had a great reputation but he usually instigated the fights thereby getting a huge advantage in his fights. Ferguson was a good fighter and was feared for his meanness but Ferguson only fought the guys he knew he could beat - oftern fighting the same guys over and over again (Baun, Shack etc.) Not only that, Ferguson often went after non-fighters like Brit Selby. Ferguson stayed away from the real tough customers like Kurtenbach and Horton.
Like McPhee says, those wednesday night games featured brawls between the Leafs and Montreal. One of the most famous was when Orland Kurtenbach destroyed Terry Harper with Ferguson standing around and not going to his teammate's aid. In the films of that game, when Ferguson was being held be Tim Horton, Ferguson was very, very docile.
And on the subject of coaching Team Canada in 1972, what qualifications did Ferguson have to be an assistant coach?Harry Sinden wasn't the brightest selection as coach but picking Ferguson with no coaching experience and with most of Team Canada's players despising him wasn't the best of moves either.

Ferguson's book had quite a bit of fiction in it.

There were a few things. fergy had his own definition as to what made up a winner, and he considered Hull more of a whiner. Might've had something to do with Fergy mugging him on occasion, but I'm a fan of #22 and I'll see things through those glasses.

The Fergy punched him when Hull's jaw was wired story was dealt with. Apparently, Fergy had been suspended for clobbering Hull. fergy claims it was clean check, and he was penalized because of Hull's whining. He claims the fight when Hull was wearing the tinsel happened off of a scramble, Hull came at him, and should appreciate that in the scrumm, Hull was tied up, Fergy had a free shot at him and passed it up. He also mentionned that Hull's wife did thank him for throttling her husband, a story I'd heard but assumed was urban myth.

Fergy claimed that even if Hull hadn;t sigend with the WHA, he didn't want him on Team Canada. Sort of a silly claim, I think, I'd of taken him over JP Parise.

That was the gist of it. remember Murray, don't shoot the messenger.