Best Russian Right Winger - Peak Bure vs. Peak Kucherov?

[Sergei Shirokov]

It is not crazy since you have to take into account the era, the teammates that you played with, the players you played against etc. With all due respect to Kucherov, I doubt he would win all these awards against prime Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Fedorov just to name a few. P.S. I totally expect Kucherov to pass Bure career-wise though when it is all set and done.

Also; Not saying Kucherov would've lost... But the Oilers not making the playoffs basically completely disqualified McDavid - the best player in the league - from Hart contention. And based on definition he might've been most deserving.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Give peak Bure a team like the 2019 Lightning and he can put up the same amount of points as Kucherov, while scoring 60-70 goals.

The 2019 Lightning were absolutely overpowered offensively. Only team in recent memory with similar firepower were the 2010 Capitals, and Ovechkin had a shot at scoring over 120 points if he hadn’t been suspended multiple times that year.

 

[HyPnOtiK]

lol, why is Bure winning? Kucherov just swept all of the awards and won an art ross by scoring 128 points, much more than Bure ever did despite playing in some much higher scoring years.

Bure was great - but peak Kucherov has absolutely done better.

Because guys like me who grew up idolizing Bure will vote for him no matter who's in the poll haha. I think it's really close but if I'm being fully honest it's probably Kucherov but I'll vote Bure.

 

[wetcoast]

Kucherov is going down as one of the best playoff performers ever.... i think that gives him the edge

Wait...what.

He is a very good one to be sure but one of the greatest.....no he isn't trending that way.

 

[wetcoast]

I feel Kucherov is somewhat overrated

Hes an insanely good playmaker but he doesn’t do as much on his own as youd expect from a 128 point player

Bure was the better singular talent IMO

This is how I see it as well on a talent basis.

Take both guys as prospects on 31 different teams over say a 5 or 10 year period (good teams, support, bad teams, linemates, coaches ect,,,) Bure comes out on top more often than not.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

If you put Kucherov on Bure's old teams and took away Bure, I feel like that is a downgrade. If you put Bure on Tampa instead of Kucherov, that's an upgrade.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

These "but Kuch plays on a good team" arguments are getting so old.

Did any of you guys use that argument against Wayne, Mario, Crosby, or Ovy when their teams were dominating or winning cups?

Yet somehow all of Kucherov's accomplishments are always all about the team.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kucherov just put up a 2009 Malkinesque playoffs after putting up the best regular season numbers we've seen in years. It's pretty clearly him.

 

[moropanov]

Give peak Bure a team like the 2019 Lightning and he can put up the same amount of points as Kucherov, while scoring 60-70 goals.

The way people talk about Bure makes it sound like he would be the clear cut best player of this generation, while in reality he wasn’t even top 10 of his own.

If Bure scores 130 today does Jagr score 180?

 

[Regal]

The way people talk about Bure makes it sound like he would be the clear cut best player of this generation, while in reality he wasn’t even top 10 of his own.

If Bure scores 130 today does Jagr score 180?

He does get overrated, and he wouldn't score 130 today (probably around 100), but he was a top 10 player at various times throughout his career. He's not top 10 for his generation largely due to injuries and career length. He had 3 Rockets, and was top 5 in goals in each of the only 5 seasons he played a full year and finished 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th in scoring at various points. For comparison, Kucherov has 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th place finishes in points. If he deals with injuries the rest of his career and retired early, he might not be top 10 of this generation when all is said and done either.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

One thing is for certain, Kucherov has firmly planted himself in the conversation. Only a couple of years ago if you would have asked who the Top 5 Russians in NHL history were you’d almost undoubtedly get some combo of Ovechkin, Malkin, Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Bure. Kucherov has changed that conversation and we’ll see where the next few years go in determining where he ends up. But if the next couple years go anything like his last four, I’d struggle to see him outside of the top 3 on that list. Personally I think what’s he’s done the past four already puts him over Bure.

 

[Regal]

These "but Kuch plays on a good team" arguments are getting so old.

Did any of you guys use that argument against Wayne, Mario, Crosby, or Ovy when their teams were dominating or winning cups?

Yet somehow all of Kucherov's accomplishments are always all about the team.

I think the team is mainly coming up with regards to his '19 season. That's really the only season that separates him from Bure, and it was a bit of a "perfect storm" type season where everything went right on a team that had one of the best records of all time. No one's discrediting all his accomplishments, but and teams and teammates always come up in player comparisons. It comes up with Ovechkin all the time when his '10 season is brought up.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

The way people talk about Bure makes it sound like he would be the clear cut best player of this generation, while in reality he wasn’t even top 10 of his own.

If Bure scores 130 today does Jagr score 180?

I never said he’d be the best player of this generation (McDavid would be still), but at his best, he could definitely score 120-130 points or something like that with the right team around him.

If you put prime Jagr on the 2018-19 Lightning, I’m pretty sure he would’ve put up 140-150 points . He’s scored that many points on worse teams like the 1995-96 Penguins in the beginning of the DPE.

 

[moropanov]

I think the team is mainly coming up with regards to his '19 season. That's really the only season that separates him from Bure, and it was a bit of a "perfect storm" type season where everything went right on a team that had one of the best records of all time. No one's discrediting all his accomplishments, but and teams and teammates always come up in player comparisons. It comes up with Ovechkin all the time when his '10 season is brought up.

As time winds down, Kucherov's season will be held in a higher pedestial than it is now. It usually takes a little while for us to appreciate what we've seen and place it in proper context. It is not that long ago that Malkin, Crosby and Ovechkin were a lot more scrutinized than they are now - and now they are considered Godly figures who no one from today can even approach.

Scoring the highest point total (raw and adjusted) in decades is simply something that is going to be impossible to sweep under the rug or downplay in the long run.

I never said he’d be the best player of this generation (McDavid would be still), but at his best, he could definitely score 120-130 points or something like that with the right team around him.

I doubt it. I don't see Bure as the kind of player that would benefit all that much from a greater team, especially as that would eat on his usage a lot. Bure had average hockey IQ and didn't utilize his teammates while Kucherov is the opposite of that.

 

[authentic]

Give peak Bure a team like the 2019 Lightning and he can put up the same amount of points as Kucherov, while scoring 60-70 goals.

The 2019 Lightning were absolutely overpowered offensively. Only team in recent memory with similar firepower were the 2010 Capitals, and Ovechkin had a shot at scoring over 120 points if he hadn’t been suspended multiple times that year.

So basically Ovechkin had a shot at scoring like Kucherov, and that means Bure is better when Ovechkin was clearly better offensively than Bure?

 

[authentic]

This is how I see it as well on a talent basis.

Take both guys as prospects on 31 different teams over say a 5 or 10 year period (good teams, support, bad teams, linemates, coaches ect,,,) Bure comes out on top more often than not.

Possibly, the question is peak though. At the same time I'm wondering if Kucherov's 128 point season is somewhat of an anomaly and not entirely suggestive of his actual level of play, because it sticks out like a sore thumb from his next best seasons.

 

[authentic]

Kucherov just put up a 2009 Malkinesque playoffs after putting up the best regular season numbers we've seen in years. It's pretty clearly him.

Not quite. He was the 3rd best skater on his team, even his regular linemate Point was better.

 

[authentic]

I never said he’d be the best player of this generation (McDavid would be still), but at his best, he could definitely score 120-130 points or something like that with the right team around him.

If you put prime Jagr on the 2018-19 Lightning, I’m pretty sure he would’ve put up 140-150 points . He’s scored that many points on worse teams like the 1995-96 Penguins in the beginning of the DPE.

1995-96 was more so the end of the high scoring era. Almost 10 players scored around a 120 point pace or more.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not quite. He was the 3rd best skater on his team, even his regular linemate Point was better.

Was Crosby better than Malkin in 2009 then?

 

[authentic]

Was Crosby better than Malkin in 2009 then?

Through the first 2-3 rounds he arguably was, although Malkin dominated against Carolina, and then in the finals Lidstrom/Zetterberg shutdown Crosby and Malkin ran wild. I would give it to Malkin since even if the roles were reversed best case scenario their points would flip flop. Point played on the same line and drove the play more, was better defensively, had way more goals (twice as many in 2 less games) and even besides that had a higher points per game anyway.

 

[Video Nasty]

Possibly, the question is peak though. At the same time I'm wondering if Kucherov's 128 point season is somewhat of an anomaly and not entirely suggestive of his actual level of play, because it sticks out like a sore thumb from his next best seasons.

It's an anomaly because it's the highest point total since 1995-1996. I think it's unreasonable to expect him to repeat it or go any higher than 115 again and also unfair to somewhat imply it was a fluke.

That being said, to me, it doesn't really stick out like a sore thumb. He's basically been in beast mode since the final third of the 2016-2017 season through present day.

2016-2017: 36 points in final 23 games (1.57ppg)
2017-2018: 100 points in 80 games (1.25 ppg)
2018-2019: 128 points in 82 games (1.56 ppg)
2019-2020: 85 points in 68 games (1.25 ppg)

Just off those numbers, he's scored at a 1.38 ppg clip over his last 253 games (over 3 full seasons worth of games). That's a 113 point pace. Take out the anomaly season and he's still scoring at a 106 point pace. He very well could have hit the century mark for a third season in a row if there was a full schedule which is something only Ovechkin and McDavid have done since the end of the 1993-1994 season (Drai has a shot this season if at least 70 games can be played).

I'm usually not one for pace, but when the subject performs at this level for consecutive, full stretches of seasons, misses only a couple of games, does reach an actual 100 points more than once to go with his pace, AND dropped the 128 points, I'm more willing to budge, give the benefit of the doubt, and expect him to hit 110+ over a complete season.

Plus he just had 34 points in 25 games while winning the Cup.

Bonus trivia that no one is talking about yet: Kucherov's 27 assists in the 2020 playoffs are the most ever, by a player not named Gretzky and Lemieux.

How much more does this player need to do to get some respect around this place?

 

[Regal]

As time winds down, Kucherov's season will be held in a higher pedestial than it is now. It usually takes a little while for us to appreciate what we've seen and place it in proper context. It is not that long ago that Malkin, Crosby and Ovechkin were a lot more scrutinized than they are now - and now they are considered Godly figures who no one from today can even approach.

Scoring the highest point total (raw and adjusted) in decades is simply something that is going to be impossible to sweep under the rug or downplay in the long run.


I doubt it. I don't see Bure as the kind of player that would benefit all that much from a greater team, especially as that would eat on his usage a lot. Bure had average hockey IQ and didn't utilize his teammates while Kucherov is the opposite of that.

I actually think the reverse is true. Kucherov's season seemed more impressive to those who were unwilling to recognize the huge uptick in scoring among the elite. Point totals that would have been 6th or 7th place finishes a few years ago are now 20th place finishes. Draisaitl would have likely come close this season if it weren't cut short, and provided scoring stays at similar levels for a couple years, it'll be clear the season was more in line with a regular good Art Ross than anything special like "most points since X" suggests. It was really no different than Kane's '16 or Crosby's '14.

 

[moropanov]

I actually think the reverse is true. Kucherov's season seemed more impressive to those who were unwilling to recognize the huge uptick in scoring among the elite. Point totals that would have been 6th or 7th place finishes a few years ago are now 20th place finishes. Draisaitl would have likely come close this season if it weren't cut short, and provided scoring stays at similar levels for a couple years, it'll be clear the season was more in line with a regular Art Ross than anything special like "most points since X" suggests

I am going to have to disagree here.

Take 08-09 for example, which is a season when Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby were at their peaks; the fifth highest scorer had 94 points. Or 07-08, where the fifth highest scorer had 96 points. Or 09-10, where the fifth had 95 points.

Contrast to 18-19, where the fifth highest scorer had 100 points. There doesn't appear to be much of a difference; the only clear difference is that Kucherov was having an enormous season, better than anything in 07-10. Maybe tone it down by a few % to match the scoring levels when OV, Sid & Malkin were at their peaks; Kucherov still comes up at 122 points when those aforementioned could only hit low 110s, while fully healthy and at the peak of production.

If you believe there is too much variation in the top scorers level, which is probably true, and don't want to believe in adjusted points either...

The 100th highest scorer
07-08 51 points
08-09 51 points
09-10 50 points
18-19 53 points

This matches up well with a scoring difference of a few percentages. It appears that Draisaitl, Kucherov and McDavid are simply having at least as good, or even better scoring seasons than peak Crosby, OV, and Malkin did. It is something that is difficult to accept, because those are mythical figures, but statistically it simply appears to be true. We have the 2015 draft class, which appears to be the best of all time, in their scoring primes, and extreme amounts of young talent in the league right now. It is really not that far-fetched that there simply is more talent in the league right now than there were 10 years ago.

 

[authentic]

It's an anomaly because it's the highest point total since 1995-1996. I think it's unreasonable to expect him to repeat it or go any higher than 115 again and also unfair to somewhat imply it was a fluke.

That being said, to me, it doesn't really stick out like a sore thumb. He's basically been in beast mode since the final third of the 2016-2017 season through present day.

2016-2017: 36 points in final 23 games (1.57ppg)
2017-2018: 100 points in 80 games (1.25 ppg)
2018-2019: 128 points in 82 games (1.56 ppg)
2019-2020: 85 points in 68 games (1.25 ppg)

Just off those numbers, he's scored at a 1.38 ppg clip over his last 253 games (over 3 full seasons worth of games). That's a 113 point pace. Take out the anomaly season and he's still scoring at a 106 point pace. He very well could have hit the century mark for a third season in a row if there was a full schedule which is something only Ovechkin and McDavid have done since the end of the 1993-1994 season (Drai has a shot this season if at least 70 games can be played).

I'm usually not one for pace, but when the subject performs at this level for consecutive, full stretches of seasons, misses only a couple of games, does reach an actual 100 points more than once to go with his pace, AND dropped the 128 points, I'm more willing to budge, give the benefit of the doubt, and expect him to hit 110+ over a complete season.

Plus he just had 34 points in 25 games while winning the Cup.

Bonus trivia that no one is talking about yet: Kucherov's 27 assists in the 2020 playoffs are the most ever, by a player not named Gretzky and Lemieux.

How much more does this player need to do to get some respect around this place?

Actually, this is a good post. I am still not entirely sure if he is better than Bure, but this is why I made the poll.

 

[Video Nasty]

Actually, this is a good post. I am still not entirely sure if he is better than Bure, but this is why I made the poll.

Thanks.

I can definitely see the argument for Bure. I loved watching him play.

I think Kucherov is firmly in the driver's seat to bury a Bure comparison if he merely stays remotely healthy for the next 5-7 seasons or so.

What if he manages to add even a single piece of significant hardware continues scoring 90-100 points, and has another great playoff run during his age 27, 28, and 29 seasons?

As of today, we're comparing Bure who played 12 seasons and 700 games with Kucherov who has played 7 seasons and 500 games. Bure collected 70+ points in a season 5 times. Kucherov has done it 4 times already, all consecutively. 2 Richards for Bure do not outweigh the clean sweep for Kucherov with a healthy McDavid setting his personal high in points playing.

Bure was electric, he was exciting, he was a flashy force who could score goals in bunches. He's the alluring pick because of this. But do the end results of his career really stack up to Kucherov now and what he could further accomplish over the rest of his career?

Just 3 seasons from now, with Kucherov's age 30 season just underway, we could be talking about a player with 320 goals and 820 career points in 10 seasons, 4-7x All Star, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 1 Ross (with some chance to add something to his trophy cabinet), and inside the top 40 all time for playoff points using a very conservative estimate of 13 points per playoff run, or 39 points added to his current total of 95 points.

Does he still lose the poll at a 2:1 ratio a few seasons from now when his seasons and games played are similar to Bure's career? Do people still blacklist him because he played with a bunch of talent, when no other Hall of Famer's have to deal with this? (except Gretzky sometimes when people try their hardest to convince that Mario was better than him).