Best prospect pool in the NHL (DET vs LA vs NYR vs OTT)

Which team has the best prospect pool in hockey?

  • Detroit Red Wings

  • LA Kings

  • New York Rangers

  • Ottawa Senators


Results are only viewable after voting.

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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As I said, Seider wasn’t doing anything special last year.

Sanderson is a defense first defenseman. He had an awesome WJC where he won Gold for the USA playing huge minutes in the Gold Medal Game, where he was swallowing up anything that came near him. Ottawa is very happy with his development post-draft, and for good reason.
Sorry to pile on.. but it's actually hilarious that you would use "Sanderson is defense first" and "Sanderson had an awesome WJC" as arguments in Sanderson's favor when Seider is both better defensively and had a much better WJC.
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

Registered User
Jun 25, 2016
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Lol this post just reeks of insecurities. Ottawa has good prospects, Seider is just better than them. The "Zadina situation" is that hes already one of Detroits better players? Not sure where youre going with that.. Same with Raymonds world junior, he was a bit snake bitten to start but had the best advanced stats in the tourney and showed up in their most important game. You didnt have to say you havent seen Seider play a lot, your posts just confirmed it. Compare Sandersons draft+1 to Seiders and still doesnt come close really. Seider was better offensively in the AHL than Sanderson is on a stacked college team and dominated the world juniors at a level that Sanderson couldnt come close to really.

At least you dont have to worry about Sanderson putting up numbers like Sedier so Melnyk might still be able to afford him alongwith 2 of Stutzle, Chabot and Tkachuk down the road.

Sanderson’s being used in a shutdown role for UND, and based off their team success, he’s doing a great job. It’s pretty pointless to compare their roles, especially a freshman playing college hockey on a stacked team. He’s contributing to a lot more team success than Seider did in his D+1 on the Griffins.

Sorry to pile on.. but it's actually hilarious that you would use "Sanderson is defense first" and "Sanderson had an awesome WJC" as arguments in Sanderson's favor when Seider is both better defensively and had a much better WJC.

I’m speaking to you and the other guy I posted here about the WJC. Seider did not dominate the tournament, he was not given any awards or named on any of the all star teams. Sanderson did not dominate either. They both had good WJC showings, except Sanderson played insane minutes in a Gold medal game against one of the most promising WJC teams ever. Canada didn’t even trail heading in, and Sanderson was a huge part in shutting them down.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,874
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I’m speaking to you and the other guy I posted here about the WJC. Seider did not dominate the tournament, he was not given any awards or named on any of the all star teams. Sanderson did not dominate either. They both had good WJC showings, except Sanderson played insane minutes in a Gold medal game against one of the most promising WJC teams ever. Canada didn’t even trail heading in, and Sanderson was a huge part in shutting them down.
Seider absolutely dominated. After the "group of death" (playing against US, Canada, Russia and Czech) he had logged more icetime than any other player in the tournament and been on the ice for ONE ES goal against. Look at Germany without Seider this year for reference to how insane that stat is.
6 points in 7 games is also quite clearly better than 2 points in 7 games, it's very difficult to argue that's a similar performance from two guys who are both defensively minded first and foremost.
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

Registered User
Jun 25, 2016
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Seider absolutely dominated. After the "group of death" (playing against US, Canada, Russia and Czech) he had logged more icetime than any other player in the tournament and been on the ice for ONE ES goal against. Look at Germany without Seider this year for reference to how insane that stat is.
6 points in 7 games is also quite clearly better than 2 points in 7 games, it's very difficult to argue that's a similar performance from two guys who are both defensively minded first and foremost.

Look at Germany this year? The year they made it the furthest they ever had, despite COVID taking out half their team for most of the tournament?
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Look at Germany this year? The year they made it the furthest they ever had, despite COVID taking out half their team for most of the tournament?
Pointless to look at that, look at the opponents they faced. Relatively, they did a whole lot better last year, giving both US and Canada decent fights and winning against the Czech.
 

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,771
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I’m speaking to you and the other guy I posted here about the WJC. Seider did not dominate the tournament, he was not given any awards or named on any of the all star teams. Sanderson did not dominate either. They both had good WJC showings, except Sanderson played insane minutes in a Gold medal game against one of the most promising WJC teams ever. Canada didn’t even trail heading in, and Sanderson was a huge part in shutting them down.

Seider absolutely did dominate that tournament. He played in the hardest group in the tournaments history and basically didnt get scored against while playing ~30 mins a game. He didnt get named to anything because his team went to the relegation round, in the other pool he wins dman of the tournament based on his play.

Its fine if you havent watched him play, just quit pretending like you actually watch. Saying he did not dominate his world juniors is actually a downright laughable evaluation of his play in that tournament
 

CTZ181

Registered User
Jan 18, 2021
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Think people are underestimating Detroit's pool. Raymond and Seider are top tier, Zadina is considered a prospect here, I believe at least all of Veleno, Wallinder, Rasmussen, and McIssac will be good starters some day.
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

Registered User
Jun 25, 2016
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Seider absolutely dominated. After the "group of death" (playing against US, Canada, Russia and Czech) he had logged more icetime than any other player in the tournament and been on the ice for ONE ES goal against. Look at Germany without Seider this year for reference to how insane that stat is.
6 points in 7 games is also quite clearly better than 2 points in 7 games, it's very difficult to argue that's a similar performance from two guys who are both defensively minded first and foremost.

They are both defensively minded, but used in completely different roles since they’ve been drafted. Sanderson’s job is to shut down the opposition, run the PK, play against the top lines, and eat up minutes with defensive zone starts. Seider benefits from the power play, offensive zone starts, ideally doesn’t have to play against the top opponents.

Remember, in the NHL, Seider will be alone with little help from Detroit’s defense. The Sens have Chabot as a #1D and Brannstrom in their top 4 to figure out the offense and allow Sanderson to focus on defense. Plus JBD as another guy to take care of defensive responsibilities. He’ll have all the support in the world.
 

c3z4r

Registered User
Jul 4, 2011
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I think LA has 2 players that can become absolute superstars in the league, so I definitely value their pool more than the others.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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They are both defensively minded, but used in completely different roles since they’ve been drafted. Sanderson’s job is to shut down the opposition, run the PK, play against the top lines, and eat up minutes with defensive zone starts. Seider benefits from the power play, offensive zone starts, ideally doesn’t have to play against the top opponents.
...what.
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,844
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NYR
Kings
Detroit

Ottawa.

Sure.

Wingers

Lafreniere vs Stutzle (will most likely be a Center though)
Kravtsov vs Batherson
Gauthier vs Formenton
Cuylle vs Sokolov
Berard vs Abramov
Pajuniemi vs Jarventie
Gettinger vs Chlapik/Crookshank

Centers

Barron vs Logan Brown
Henriksson vs Norris
Vierling vs Pinto
Tarnstrom vs Greig

Defense

Miller vs Sanderson
Lundkvist vs Brannstrom
Robertson vs Bernard-Docker
Schneider vs Kleven
Jones vs Thomson
Reunanen vs Guenette
Hajek vs Tychonick

Goalies (Note : Shesterkin is too old, like Zub for Ottawa)

Wall, Garand, Ollas, Huska, Lindbom vs Daccord, Sogaard, Mandolese, Gustavsson, Merilainen

I don't know... Looking at that, I don't think it's really close, particularly the 4 Center prospects

The only group that compares with Ottawa is LA. Both pools are clearly the Top-2

They are both defensively minded, but used in completely different roles since they’ve been drafted. Sanderson’s job is to shut down the opposition, run the PK, play against the top lines, and eat up minutes with defensive zone starts. Seider benefits from the power play, offensive zone starts, ideally doesn’t have to play against the top opponents.

Remember, in the NHL, Seider will be alone with little help from Detroit’s defense. The Sens have Chabot as a #1D and Brannstrom in their top 4 to figure out the offense and allow Sanderson to focus on defense. Plus JBD as another guy to take care of defensive responsibilities. He’ll have all the support in the world.

Have to start mentionning Artem Zub as well who looks pretty damn good and has impressive advanced stats. Small sample size of course but looks poised and composed.

Also who cares about Seider vs Sanderson D+1? What is important here is both guys projection. It appears clear that both guys will be beasts among their peers and most likely among the elite of the league (top-32 D-men). Just based on their physical tools and the way they think the game. Personally, I'm dumbfounded by Jake's skating ability as well as his hockey IQ. A really great combo in today's game.

But yeah, if you ask me which top-10 I'd take, it's easily Ottawa (Stutzle, Sanderson, Batherson, Norris, Brannstrom, Pinto, Formenton, Logan Brown, JBD, Greig) even if Seider ends up better than Sanderson (which I wouldn't certify as of today)
 
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NotLeddy

Trust the Yzerscam
Oct 23, 2018
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Remember, in the NHL, Seider will be alone with little help from Detroit’s defense. The Sens have Chabot as a #1D and Brannstrom in their top 4 to figure out the offense and allow Sanderson to focus on defense. Plus JBD as another guy to take care of defensive responsibilities. He’ll have all the support in the world.

Detroit's defense has been much better than Ottawa's this season- this is a complete overexaggeration in what quantifies as "help."

Ottawa are allowing 2.55 expected goals against/60 (3rd worst in the league) vs Detroit's 1.87 xga/60 (7th best in the league) by NaturalStatTrick's model.

Guys like Merrill and Stecher are allowing significantly less shot attempts than the majority of the Senators defense (as they also did last year with Vegas/Vancouver respectively), the only ones that come close are the ones who haven't played many games like Zub and Wolanin. Nemeth, despite the terrible team around him, had very good shot suppression metrics that would've made him the best defenseman on the Blackhawks last season.
That 1D in Chabot has not had a partner that is a legit top 4 D the past two seasons, so I don't blame him entirely for his poor xga/60, and it's not fair to look at Brannstrom's small sample size, but that is very poor "help" for a rookie defenseman to try to elevate on the Senators just looking at the past two seasons. Most of Detroit's major breakdowns defensively this season have come on the penalty kill (a lot of bad personnel decisions, Hronek is a terrible PK defender and Blashill continues to put him out there).

Seider took one of the best teams in the SHL this season and completely elevated them to another level offensively and defensively. He's as much of a sure thing as it gets. Both teams will have their share of roster turnover this offseason on the blueline and it's dependant on who Steve resigns/trades for assets assuming next season is both of their rookie NHL seasons, but *until* Ottawa shows significant defensive improvement from guys like Chabot, Brannstrom etc. in the NHL it's erroneous to suggest Ottawa has a leg up there. And I don't see what makes Bernard-Docker good enough to be confident that he'll be an NHL impact player anymore than your average low-offense shutdown defenseman, personally.

Es2tg3CXMAE6_b9
 
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Raccoon Jesus

Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Oct 30, 2008
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The fun thing about LA's pool is that their development team churns out NHLers in late rounds and out of UDFAs at a great rate. So there are some obvious names at the top of the list--but when you look down the Kings roster, you realize guys like Iafallo, Lizotte, Sean Walker, Austin Strand weren't even drafted, Matt Roy is a stud d-man from the 7th round, Mikey Anderson playing top pairing from the 4th round. They've done great over the years placing mid-late picks all over the league--so that depth they have is just a lot more lotto tickets and it shouldn't surprise anyone to see Kings fans really high on the thought of them banging another one out of the park, could see Andre Lee or Laferriere being effective depth guys, or SImontaival or Chromiak blowing up.

Here were our prospect tiers from back in November, I'm sure there would be some movement (like Madden UP):

1: Byfield, Vilardi, Turcotte
2. Bjornfot, Kaliyev
3. Fagemo, Anderson, Madden, Kupari, Grans
4. Thomas, Clague, Anderson-Dolan, Faber, Nousiainen, Hults, Spence
5. Simontaival, Dudas, Parik, Chromiak, Moverare, Moverare, Durzi, Ingham
---Laferriere, Aatu Jamsen, Villalta, Ben Meehan, Lee, Strand, Juho Markkanen, Eyssimont, Shafigullin, Sodergran, Braden Doyle, Hrenak, Brickley, Markus Phillips, Dergachyov, Imama, Rymsha.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,597
23,521
New York
Sure.

Wingers

Lafreniere vs Stutzle (will most likely be a Center though)
Kravtsov vs Batherson
Gauthier vs Formenton
Cuylle vs Sokolov
Berard vs Abramov
Pajuniemi vs Jarventie
Gettinger vs Chlapik/Crookshank

Centers

Barron vs Logan Brown
Henriksson vs Norris
Vierling vs Pinto
Tarnstrom vs Greig

Defense

Miller vs Sanderson
Lundkvist vs Brannstrom
Robertson vs Bernard-Docker
Schneider vs Kleven
Jones vs Thomson
Reunanen vs Guenette
Hajek vs Tychonick

Goalies (Note : Shesterkin is too old, like Zub for Ottawa)

Wall, Garand, Ollas, Huska, Lindbom vs Daccord, Sogaard, Mandolese, Gustavsson, Merilainen

I don't know... Looking at that, I don't think it's really close, particularly the 4 Center prospects

The only group that compares with Ottawa is LA. Both pools are clearly the Top-2



Have to start mentionning Artem Zub as well who looks pretty damn good and has impressive advanced stats. Small sample size of course but looks poised and composed.

Also who cares about Seider vs Sanderson D+1? What is important here is both guys projection. It appears clear that both guys will be beast among the elite of the league (top-32 D-men). Just based on their physical tools and the way they think the game. Personally, I'm dumbfounded by Jake's skating ability as well as his hockey IQ. A really great combo in today's game.

But yeah, if you ask me which top-10 I take, it's easily Ottawa (Stutzle, Sanderson, Batherson, Norris, Brannstrom, Pinto, Formenton, Logan Brown, JBD, Greig) even if Seider ends up better than Sanderson (which I wouldn't certify as of today)

It seems oddly convenient that you are making rules for how other people can judge these teams that claims certain NHL rookies can’t be counted because they are supposedly too old. Isn’t that the cutoff that most use?
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

Registered User
Jun 25, 2016
6,375
4,203
It makes me laugh that sens fans try to always mention drysdale and sanderson together.

Drysdale is way better. They try to tie him to drysdale to boost him.

I mean, the Sens had a choice with either, and liked what they saw from Sanderson more than Drysdale. And if there’s one thing I’ll give the Sens management credit for is good drafting.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,844
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Montreal, Canada
It seems oddly convenient that you are making rules for how other people can judge these teams that claims certain NHL rookies can’t be counted because they are supposedly too old. Isn’t that the cutoff that most use?

Ever heard about the word concensus?

We are on Hockey's Future. I have been here since 2008, and even was lurking before that. I have conducted prospect polls for years. Any ranking methodology without using a consistent concensus is pretty useless. On the Sens board (and I'm pretty sure many other boards did the same), we have used HF criterias since the beginning.

https://www.hockeysfuture.com/whatmakesaprospect/

Those criterias make a lot of sense, particularly that 25 y/o cutoff. Since I am very cartesian, I am NOT conveniently setting rules to have more Sens prospects in my comparison. If not, I'd have Artem Zub and Wolanin in there.

I hope it answers your concerns
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
I mean, the Sens had a choice with either, and liked what they saw from Sanderson more than Drysdale. And if there’s one thing I’ll give the Sens management credit for is good drafting.

Yeah sens management is stellar. Last time they had a pick in that range they took zibanajad over schiefele..... how did that turn out? The 3 following players, arguably 4, have been better picks. Not that it matters, the sens didnt keep him.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
He's a number 1 C like them? And still around a top 5 player in the entire draft in any re-draft? Lol, what are you on, Mr. Dirte.
He doesnt beeak the top 10 in a redraft...

Couturier, RNH, schiefele, kucherov, gibson, landeskog, palat, gaudreau, jt miller, saad, hamilton, arguably shaw and brodin too.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,844
9,778
Montreal, Canada
Detroit's defense has been much better than Ottawa's this season- this is a complete overexaggeration in what quantifies as "help."

Ottawa are allowing 2.55 expected goals against/60 (3rd worst in the league) vs Detroit's 1.87 xga/60 (7th best in the league) by NaturalStatTrick's model.

Guys like Merrill and Stecher are allowing significantly less shot attempts than the majority of the Senators defense (as they also did last year with Vegas/Vancouver respectively), the only ones that come close are the ones who haven't played many games like Zub and Wolanin. Nemeth, despite the terrible team around him, had very good shot suppression metrics that would've made him the best defenseman on the Blackhawks last season.
That 1D in Chabot has not had a partner that is a legit top 4 D the past two seasons, so I don't blame him entirely for his poor xga/60, and it's not fair to look at Brannstrom's small sample size, but that is very poor "help" for a rookie defenseman to try to elevate on the Senators just looking at the past two seasons. Most of Detroit's major breakdowns defensively this season have come on the penalty kill (a lot of bad personnel decisions, Hronek is a terrible PK defender and Blashill continues to put him out there).

Seider took one of the best teams in the SHL this season and completely elevated them to another level offensively and defensively. He's as much of a sure thing as it gets. Both teams will have their share of roster turnover this offseason on the blueline and it's dependant on who Steve resigns/trades for assets assuming next season is both of their rookie NHL seasons, but *until* Ottawa shows significant defensive improvement from guys like Chabot, Brannstrom etc. in the NHL it's erroneous to suggest Ottawa has a leg up there. And I don't see what makes Bernard-Docker good enough to be confident that he'll be an NHL impact player anymore than your average low-offense shutdown defenseman, personally.

Es2tg3CXMAE6_b9

Not trying to support the argument you quoted, we don't even know how both Detroit/Ottawa defenses will look like in 2-3 years but just wanted to note that everything Ottawa in the NHL this season has to be taken with a big grain of salt. The team is heavily discombobulated right now

First, there seems to be a very big coaching problem. Hockey systems have not been well executed at all which explains a big part of their problems. Defensive coverage was NOT NHL level for the first 6 road games. They were gift wrapping several GA per game, which was reflected in goalie stats. Some adjustments seem to have been made since, which allowed Matt Murray to pick up his game. Marcus Hogberg on the other hand hasn't looked like NHL goalie at all. His positionning is really bad and has hurt the team more than anything.

To the coaching staff defense, having yet another complete turnover of the veterans (starting from no one left from the 2017 playoffs run) plus a bunch of very green players (very low NHL experience), plus basically no training camp makes it hard to instill anything. There is very little chemistry right now because not many players have played together before. Plus, you have to wonder if the coaching staff is working with any player to rectify problems in their game (video coaching?)

There was also very poor choices of personnel going into the season :

- Stepan (many Sens fans, including me, were not happy with this, paying a 2nd for Stepan who has a 6.5 AAV was ridiculous). He is not motivated and has slowed down considerably the last few years. Many of us think it would be much better to play any center prospect over him

- Anisimov, guy has also declined big time and is not NHL level anymore, due mainly to a lack of speed. He was a cap dump when acquired so no big surprise here. Having him in the lineup hurt the team at the beginning but at least it only lasted 4 games. Starting Anisimov over Colin White was ridiculous and it has been proven quite quickly.

- Paquette dumped on Ottawa (good trade because Sens got a 2nd and saved money on Gaborik/Nilsson LTIR contracts) as Tampa had no choice but the guy clearly doesn't want to be here. He's an heart and soul player and if his heart isn't in it, he's useless.

- Coburn was also acquired in that deal and the guy is also done at the NHL level. Great career. Still played 8 games and hurt the team in many games he played

- Mike Reilly : this guy is the definition of Jekyll and Hyde. One night he looks like a legit NHLer and the following night, he's AHL level only. I have no idea why Dorion paid a 5th round pick to acquire him and thought he would help the team in any way

- Josh Brown : paid a 4th round pick, we were kinda expecting a solid 3rd pairing D-man but he has been really bad, like NOT NHL level at all. Another pick wasted, hurt the team in 9 games so far

- Erik Gudbranson : another 5th round pick given up but at least this acquisition is not as bad as the others. Problem has been more playing him anything over sheltered 3rd pairing/PK minutes. In that role he's fine.


All that being said, the defense is MUCH MUCH better when both Artem Zub (25 y/o rookie) and Erik Brannstrom (21 y/o) are in the lineup. Unfortunately, EB only played 3 games and got injured and Zub was sidelined last night for covid protocol, only has played 6 games so far. Many Sens fans have been wondering why it took so long to get them in the lineup as they are night and day better than Josh Brown, Coburn and even Reilly and Gudbranson. Wolanin has also been injured and the guy hasn't played a lot of hockey in the last 2 years (injuries). There was some major rust to shake off and it seems to be coming but playing him with Josh Brown or Coburn is not going to help him lol

No training camp games has really hurt that team, much more than veteran teams that have been playing together for a while and have a lot of good/decent established NHL players. Ottawa has Zaitsev, Gudbranson, Connor Brown, Tierney, Dadonov, Watson and that's it. Impossible to do anything with that kind of veteran core. Which is why many Sens fans want to see Dorion fired as soon as possible.
 

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