Best Eras by Position

[arrbez]

Thought it would be interesting to look at the best era's for each position. Might lead to some interesting discussion.

For instance, is the golden era for goaltenders the late 50's and 60's guys (Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, Bower), or the 90's and early 2000's (Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour)?

Was the late 70's best era for defenders with Potvin, Robinson, Salming, Park, Lapointe, Savard? Or was it the early-mid 90's, featuring Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, MacInnis, Leetch, and Stevens?
Will anyone make an argument for the late 50's with Harvey, Kelly, Horton, Pronovost, Gadsby, Stanley)?



I think some positions are pretty much on lockdown, with the late 80's for centres (Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Yzerman) and the late 50's for RW's (Howe, Richard, Bathgate, Geoffrion) being untouchable in my eyes. But what would the next best era's be?

Click to read more...

 

[MXD]

Thought it would be interesting to look at the best era's for each position. Might lead to some interesting discussion.

For instance, is the golden era for goaltenders the late 50's and 60's guys (Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, Bower), or the 90's and early 2000's (Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour)?

Was the late 70's best era for defenders with Potvin, Robinson, Salming, Park, Lapointe, Savard? Or was it the early-mid 90's, featuring Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, MacInnis, Leetch, and Stevens?
Will anyone make an argument for the late 50's with Harvey, Kelly, Horton, Pronovost, Gadsby, Stanley)?



I think some positions are pretty much on lockdown, with the late 80's for centres (Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Yzerman) and the late 50's for RW's (Howe, Richard, Bathgate, Geoffrion) being untouchable in my eyes. But what would the next best era's be?

Might sounds out of the blue, but the 30ies, with Shore, Clancy, Seibert and al., was really an awesome era for D-Mens.

 

[pitseleh]

Center is a position that has been deep pretty much throughout history.

LW was probably best during the Hull/Mahovlich/Moore/Bucyk era. In second would be the Bentley/Jackson/Joliat period in the 30s.

RW, after the period you mentioned, was particularly strong during the late 70s/early 80s with Bossy, Lafleur, and Kurri making waves in the NHL and Mikhailov and Maltsev still going strong and the emergence of Makarov as a dominant player in the Soviet Union.

The best defensive eras have already been mentioned. I find it tough to make a call on the best era, but I'd say the thirties were probably best for depth of top quality defensemen.

 

[Stephen]

Maybe right now for LW? Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Nash, Heatley, Vanek, Parise, Sedin, Morrow, with some veteran talent like Kariya, Tkachuk, Prospal, Naslund and Tanguay putting up decent numbers. LW hasn't traditionally been that great for depth and scoring as a position.

 

[Big Phil]

Goaltending? The '50s. Hall, Sawchuk and Plante were pretty much in their own class. No one else garnered 1st and 2nd all-star positions other than them from '56-60. There isnt the dominance quite like that with Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. At least not at the same time. Goaltending right now, might be the weakest it's been in a long time. I know there is always the thought that goalies are much better than yesterday but other than Brodeur what other goalies entering 2008 are locks for the HHOF? Luongo? Kipper? Lundqvist? Fleury? None yet.

 

[MXD]

Maybe right now for LW? Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Nash, Heatley, Vanek, Parise, Sedin, Morrow, with some veteran talent like Kariya, Tkachuk, Prospal, Naslund and Tanguay putting up decent numbers. LW hasn't traditionally been that great for depth and scoring as a position.

It's not a bad era, but as far as im concerned it's still far behind the Hull-Mahovlich-Bucyk era... Mind you, Dickie Moore was still playing when those guys started their career. Bert Olmstead as well. Then it's the 30ies, but this era has the potential to surpass the 30ies.

 

[Stephen]

It's not a bad era, but as far as im concerned it's still far behind the Hull-Mahovlich-Bucyk era... Mind you, Dickie Moore was still playing when those guys started their career. Bert Olmstead as well. Then it's the 30ies, but this era has the potential to surpass the 30ies.

True enough, the 60s had a few real gems for LW. The present just looks good from a potential point of view. One guy is in his early 20s and is a Hart winner, and there are a handful of guys who should have great careers.

 

[Stephen]

Goaltending? The '50s. Hall, Sawchuk and Plante were pretty much in their own class. No one else garnered 1st and 2nd all-star positions other than them from '56-60. There isnt the dominance quite like that with Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. At least not at the same time. Goaltending right now, might be the weakest it's been in a long time. I know there is always the thought that goalies are much better than yesterday but other than Brodeur what other goalies entering 2008 are locks for the HHOF? Luongo? Kipper? Lundqvist? Fleury? None yet.

Hard to say, really. The mid to late 90s had some great goalies and some great depth: Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour were a step above everybody else, Fuhr was turning out some remarkable years, Joseph, Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, Potvin, McLean, Kolzig turned out some dominant seasons, but weren't consistently great.

The Original Six era is also hard to judge in some ways because the league was so small. There were only 2 dominant teams in the 1950s, while everyone else sucked. The Habs and Wings crushed everybody else during that era, so it figures their players are going to be dominant.

 

[nik jr]

Might sounds out of the blue, but the 30ies, with Shore, Clancy, Seibert and al., was really an awesome era for D-Mens.

Center is a position that has been deep pretty much throughout history.

LW was probably best during the Hull/Mahovlich/Moore/Bucyk era. In second would be the Bentley/Jackson/Joliat period in the 30s.

RW, after the period you mentioned, was particularly strong during the late 70s/early 80s with Bossy, Lafleur, and Kurri making waves in the NHL and Mikhailov and Maltsev still going strong and the emergence of Makarov as a dominant player in the Soviet Union.

The best defensive eras have already been mentioned. I find it tough to make a call on the best era, but I'd say the thirties were probably best for depth of top quality defensemen.

i am somewhat suspicious of the '30s. clapper, siebert and goodfellow all quickly made the transition from scoring forward to 1st AS d-man.

so i think the late '80s-early '90s are better.

 

[MXD]

i am somewhat suspicious of the '30s. clapper, siebert and goodfellow all quickly made the transition from scoring forward to 1st AS d-man.

so i think the late '80s-early '90s are better.

This thought crossed my mind, when I realized the following...

1 - Dit Clapper wasn't exactly a great scoring winger (good player more recognized by his stable play than anything else, was never the driving force for his offensive units). ... or at least, that's what it seems to be.
2 - Babe Siebert was basically too slow to play offence anymore. This said, he played a lot of defense prior to be moved down to defense... I mean, the guy played with Nels Stewart.
3 - I honestly don't have many explanations about Ebbie Goodfellow. His numbers from his forward days are pretty average, until you realize that he was playing on the same team than Cooney Weiland (and, for the sake of completion, Syd Howe and Marty Barry). And then, well, he went to win a few cups, even the Hart...
4 - The guy considered the best pure defensive D-Men - Cy Wentworth - never got much consideration in an all-time perspective. Kinda pointing toward the fact ALL the guys I mentionned were actually 2-way D-Mens.

 

[pitseleh]

i am somewhat suspicious of the '30s. clapper, siebert and goodfellow all quickly made the transition from scoring forward to 1st AS d-man.

so i think the late '80s-early '90s are better.

While I definitely understand the rationale behind that, and agree to a certain extent, the fact that both Siebert and Goodfellow were both able to win the Hart after the move back to defense does suggest that they were pretty successful at the switch regardless of the caliber of the competition.

Even excluding those guys, players like Shore, Seibert, Clancy, Mantha, and Conacher were all strong defensemen in the same era.

 

[God Bless Canada]

The late 50s were definitely the heyday for the RW. Four of the top 10 RWs of all-time - Howe, Geoffrion, Bathgate and Richard - were playing at a very high level. How good were these four? From 1948 through 1963, they were the only RWs named to an all-star team.

There have been other good times (early-to-mid 30s, when Conacher, Cook and Clapper were vying for two spots, and early-to-mid 80s, when you had Kurri and Bossy). But nothing trumps the quarter I mentioned earlier.

I think the 60s were the best for LWs. For 10 years, you had three of the top 10 ever - Hull, Mahovlich and Bucyk - vying for all-star nods. That competition would continue until 72, when Hull bolted for the WHA. Outside of that, the top LW talent has usually been spread out: Jackson and Joliat in the early 30s, Blake and Schriner, in the late 30s and 40s, Bentley in the mid-to-late 40s, Lindsay in the late 40s and 50s, Moore in the late 50s.

Centre would probably be the late 80s/early 90s, but centre has almost always been a deep position. Post WWII, you had Apps, M. Bentley, Schmidt, Abel and Lach. In the 60s, it was Beliveau, Richard and Mikita. 70s gave us Esposito, Clarke, Trottier, Perreault and Dionne.

Defence is tough. Do you go with the mid 50s, when Harvey, Kelly and Gadsby were at their best? The mid-to-late 70s gave us Orr (for a year), Potvin, Robinson, Park, Lapointe, Salming and Savard. That was incredible. Then there was the late 80s/much of the 90s, say, from 1989 to 1996. Six HHOF-calibre defencemen (Bourque, Coffey, Murphy, Chelios, MacInnis and Stevens) were drafted between 79 and 82. All of them, with the exception of Coffey, were playing their best hockey during that stretch. Brian Leetch stepped up and joined that company in 1991.

Goalie? Tough call. The late 50s/early 60s (throw Johnny Bower and Gump Worsley into the mix) had the great top end. Every team had an HHOF-calibre goalie. Might be more depth for 1994 to 2003 - Hasek, Roy, Belfour, Brodeur, complimented by the guys mentioned earlier.

 

[pappyline]

The late 50s were definitely the heyday for the RW. Four of the top 10 RWs of all-time - Howe, Geoffrion, Bathgate and Richard - were playing at a very high level. How good were these four? From 1948 through 1963, they were the only RWs named to an all-star team.

but centre has almost always been a deep position.
.

For RW in the late 50's, Litzenberger could be added to that list even though he never made allstar at the RW position. Competition was just too good. Any other era, he would have garnered a couple of spots.

If there ever was a period that maybe centre wasn't deep it was in the 50's. Beliveau was around & there was Henri Richard but there were guys like Mackell, Mosdell, Horvath,Sloan, Delvecchio,Litzenberger who each made one AS team at centre. On the other hand, maybe you could say it was deep since so many different players were selected. I am surprised Earl Reibel didn't make it at least once.

 

[Randall Graves*]

80's/90's was incredible for centers Yzerman, Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Sakic, Lindros, Forsberg, Fedorov, Lafontaine etc..amazing

I usually don't overrate todays players vs the past but I think we may be entering another great era for centers, if not already there.
Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Thornton, Lecavalier, Spezza, Kopitar, Getzlaf, Richards etc..Alot of guys with special potential in terms of their legacy.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Might sounds out of the blue, but the 30ies, with Shore, Clancy, Seibert and al., was really an awesome era for D-Mens.

I prefer the 80's.

Potvin, Robinson, Chelios, Bourque, Coffey, Langway, Macinnis, Stevens, Howe, Murphy, Wilson..............And if we include International talent, Fetisov and Kasatonov

5 of the top 10 all time Dmen(bolded), and 2 more from the top 15

 

[nik jr]

While I definitely understand the rationale behind that, and agree to a certain extent, the fact that both Siebert and Goodfellow were both able to win the Hart after the move back to defense does suggest that they were pretty successful at the switch regardless of the caliber of the competition.

Even excluding those guys, players like Shore, Seibert, Clancy, Mantha, and Conacher were all strong defensemen in the same era.

of course, it's very possible that voters gave preference to converted forwards. anderson and pratt also won the hart.

i think all those players also had excellent offensive seasons when they won the hart.

siebert was 8th in assists.

goodfellow was near the top 10 in scoring, and was close to his average scoring as a forward.

pratt's points per game average wasn't passed (by another d-man) until orr.

anderson led his team in scoring, was 8th in scoring and 6th in assists.

 

[mrzeigler]

Maybe right now for LW? Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Nash, Heatley, Vanek, Parise, Sedin, Morrow, with some veteran talent like Kariya, Tkachuk, Prospal, Naslund and Tanguay putting up decent numbers. LW hasn't traditionally been that great for depth and scoring as a position.

Give it 10 years or so and we can assess this group. But for the time being, I'm really enjoying watching the the under-30 guys you list.

 

[mrzeigler]

Interesting question, and one I sat here for a good 10 minutes thinking about.

Sure we're all offering up opinion, but can we give informed opinion on how the best players of any early generation compare with those of today? And I'm not talking about the problem of comparing eras; I mean the the problem of comparing players in a 6-team league vs. those in a 30-team league.

Given how international the NHL has become in recent decades, it's not like there's been a dillution of talent over that span, either. So we have the elite of the world playing in the league today, as opposed to the early days, when it was the Canada's elite.

IMO, more teams + a global talent pool = more skilled players, certainly by raw numbers if not by percentage.

Look at it this way — the NHL of today can have eight goaltenders who are, by historical standards, terrible, yet there could still be 22 good or great goalies playing. In some eras, eight terrible starting goaltenders = the most brilliant group of forwards to ever play the game.

Sure, there will be cases of brilliant individuals of each era shining through, but for overall depth, I'd think we have to go with recent decades for most positions.

 

[arrbez]

It's not a bad era, but as far as im concerned it's still far behind the Hull-Mahovlich-Bucyk era... Mind you, Dickie Moore was still playing when those guys started their career. Bert Olmstead as well. Then it's the 30ies, but this era has the potential to surpass the 30ies.

I believe these next 10 years will go down as an extremely strong era for the LW position.

I know it ruffles a lot of feathers to compare young players to alltime greats, but it really is a special class of young snipers. Ovechkin, Heatley, and Kovalchuk all look like 500+ goal scorers in the making to me. Barring major injuries, Ovechkin is going to be one of the greatest LWers of all time. Bobby Hull has set a lofty standard, but I honestly won't be surprised to see Ovechkin as the consensus #2 when all is said and done. He's got the tools, he's got the drive, and he's already well on his way at only age 22. I see both Heatley and Kovalchuk being HOFers, and I think we've yet to see the best from Nash and Parise (not sold on Vanek though, personally).

 

[pnep]

"HHOF Monitor" PTS Top 5 Players by Positions

Season|Top 5 LW|Top 5 C|Top 5 RW|Top 5 D|Top 5 G|Total "HHOF Monitor" PTS
1917-18|1138,00|453,00|528,00|810,85|615,00|3544,85
1918-19|327,50|1081,00|572,00|734,55|569,50|3284,55
1919-20|437,00|1153,00|536,50|817,30|613,00|3556,80
1920-21|497,50|747,50|820,50|845,15|614,00|3524,65
1921-22|433,00|645,00|970,00|1021,20|610,00|3679,20
1922-23|706,00|523,50|798,00|772,40|620,00|3419,90
1923-24|487,00|875,50|686,00|1072,10|613,50|3734,10
1924-25|762,50|750,50|615,00|717,10|618,00|3463,10
1925-26|677,50|1269,50|512,00|862,75|631,00|3952,75
1926-27|510,50|912,00|740,50|973,00|876,50|4012,50
1927-28|551,00|1284,00|513,50|726,10|791,50|3866,10
1928-29|414,50|1014,00|742,00|859,40|1021,50|4051,40
1929-30|495,50|1180,00|629,00|926,60|822,00|4053,10
1930-31|522,00|1108,00|796,00|901,30|782,00|4109,30
1931-32|546,50|1075,00|882,50|912,30|688,50|4104,80
1932-33|606,00|608,50|1020,50|1049,05|733,50|4017,55
1933-34|696,00|728,50|734,50|959,60|717,00|3835,60
1934-35|614,50|782,00|966,00|905,75|735,50|4003,75
1935-36|803,50|870,00|630,50|958,30|878,50|4140,80
1936-37|643,50|965,00|544,00|1057,15|779,50|3989,15
1937-38|698,00|666,00|937,00|932,15|714,00|3947,15
1938-39|1096,00|815,50|496,50|843,30|769,50|4020,80
1939-40|683,50|964,50|813,00|968,40|739,00|4168,40
1940-41|702,00|1146,00|774,00|903,55|830,00|4355,55
1941-42|760,00|940,00|720,50|941,85|751,50|4113,85
1942-43|821,50|864,00|500,50|902,65|697,00|3785,65
1943-44|1084,00|729,00|589,00|943,55|718,00|4063,55
1944-45|589,50|934,50|858,00|826,15|863,50|4071,65
1945-46|811,50|1085,50|476,00|835,20|685,50|3893,70
1946-47|559,50|898,50|1058,95|767,30|703,00|3987,25
1947-48|679,50|1259,00|473,50|800,90|800,50|4013,40
1948-49|893,50|968,00|474,00|801,50|921,00|4058,00
1949-50|681,50|836,50|670,00|837,80|1035,00|4060,80
1950-51|513,00|872,00|1233,00|800,00|805,00|4223,00
1951-52|695,00|651,50|1041,00|824,70|813,50|4025,70
1952-53|819,50|542,00|994,50|862,90|872,00|4090,90
1953-54|618,00|555,50|993,50|943,00|975,50|4085,50
1954-55|659,50|837,50|1161,00|893,05|798,00|4349,05
1955-56|623,00|1284,50|917,50|884,95|756,50|4466,45
1956-57|665,50|759,00|1215,50|855,20|730,00|4225,20
1957-58|858,00|795,00|1057,00|836,95|773,50|4320,45
1958-59|962,50|884,50|846,00|854,05|768,50|4315,55
1959-60|911,00|848,00|764,00|807,95|800,50|4131,45
1960-61|600,50|688,50|979,50|934,15|800,00|4002,65
1961-62|901,00|846,50|815,50|933,50|930,50|4427,00
1962-63|591,50|798,50|1069,50|913,20|881,50|4254,20
1963-64|999,50|976,00|788,50|873,60|753,00|4390,60
1964-65|811,50|1186,00|625,00|850,15|853,00|4325,65
1965-66|953,00|946,00|743,00|746,40|919,50|4307,90
1966-67|669,00|1123,00|519,00|840,70|809,50|3961,20
1967-68|599,50|1271,00|524,00|765,30|893,00|4052,80
1968-69|775,00|1124,50|579,50|882,05|830,50|4191,55
1969-70|518,50|919,00|597,50|1194,85|919,50|4149,35
1970-71|787,00|1027,00|534,50|1112,45|932,00|4392,95
1971-72|758,00|979,00|649,00|1201,65|875,50|4463,15
1972-73|608,50|1221,00|741,50|837,70|827,50|4236,20
1973-74|701,00|1089,00|539,10|934,75|1091,00|4354,85
1974-75|549,00|1102,00|640,00|923,10|975,00|4189,10
1975-76|573,00|937,00|1004,00|913,75|850,00|4277,75
1976-77|675,00|851,50|1050,00|868,10|854,00|4298,60
1977-78|609,00|827,00|1135,00|953,95|846,00|4370,95
1978-79|715,00|1015,50|783,00|870,65|897,50|4281,65
1979-80|592,00|1324,00|739,50|783,60|771,50|4210,60
1980-81|507,00|1167,00|709,50|798,30|933,50|4115,30
1981-82|506,00|1120,00|883,50|747,25|703,50|3960,25
1982-83|566,00|1123,00|770,50|802,55|926,00|4188,05
1983-84|687,50|1032,00|720,00|1062,65|725,50|4227,65
1984-85|539,00|1282,00|835,50|825,45|762,50|4244,45
1985-86|534,50|1096,50|744,45|850,50|826,50|4052,45
1986-87|554,00|1310,50|811,00|870,75|856,50|4402,75
1987-88|610,50|1315,50|630,50|781,65|806,00|4144,15
1988-89|468,95|1334,50|655,50|948,25|762,50|4169,70
1989-90|509,50|1119,50|789,50|901,00|817,50|4137,00
1990-91|560,00|1142,00|1060,50|785,80|799,00|4347,30
1991-92|715,50|1164,00|669,50|774,80|848,00|4171,80
1992-93|591,00|1234,00|793,50|744,35|838,00|4200,85
1993-94|553,00|1136,00|708,00|952,05|872,50|4221,55
1994-95|483,50|981,00|1042,50|804,75|748,50|4060,25
1995-96|616,00|1371,50|762,00|776,25|736,00|4261,75
1996-97|928,50|810,00|686,50|773,50|1144,50|4343,00
1997-98|559,00|852,50|1078,00|821,20|1109,50|4420,20
1998-99|603,00|929,50|1193,00|789,40|787,00|4301,90
1999-00|539,50|701,50|1125,00|1053,70|765,00|4184,70
2000-01|636,50|1151,00|874,50|918,60|907,00|4487,60
2001-02|695,50|802,50|958,00|960,15|928,00|4344,15
2002-03|842,50|862,00|708,50|775,70|899,00|4087,70
2003-04|842,00|895,00|1113,50|741,55|747,00|4339,05
2005-06|588,00|1039,00|986,00|749,00|805,50|4167,50

​

 

[pnep]

HHOF-ers by Positions

Season|LW|C|RW|D|G|Total HHOF-ers
1917-18|4|3|3|6|3|19
1918-19|3|4|3|5|3|18
1919-20|3|4|4|3|2|16
1920-21|2|3|4|4|2|15
1921-22|2|4|2|6|2|16
1922-23|4|4|3|5|2|18
1923-24|3|5|4|4|2|18
1924-25|3|5|4|4|3|19
1925-26|4|5|4|7|4|24
1926-27|8|11|8|11|6|44
1927-28|5|13|7|12|8|45
1928-29|6|12|6|12|6|42
1929-30|6|12|6|11|6|41
1930-31|5|11|7|11|5|39
1931-32|5|10|5|12|5|37
1932-33|5|11|5|11|5|37
1933-34|5|10|5|10|5|35
1934-35|6|11|4|11|4|36
1935-36|8|10|5|13|3|39
1936-37|8|12|7|12|5|44
1937-38|7|11|4|10|2|34
1938-39|9|8|5|9|3|34
1939-40|8|8|4|9|3|32
1940-41|8|9|3|8|3|31
1941-42|9|8|4|9|3|33
1942-43|6|9|4|7|2|28
1943-44|3|7|3|5|2|20
1944-45|4|6|2|6|2|20
1945-46|9|10|4|9|5|37
1946-47|6|10|5|9|5|35
1947-48|5|9|4|10|5|33
1948-49|4|8|4|10|5|31
1949-50|4|8|5|12|6|35
1950-51|4|10|5|10|4|33
1951-52|6|8|6|12|4|36
1952-53|5|8|6|12|6|37
1953-54|6|8|6|12|4|36
1954-55|5|5|6|12|6|34
1955-56|6|4|5|13|5|33
1956-57|8|5|5|11|5|34
1957-58|8|4|5|11|5|33
1958-59|8|5|5|11|6|35
1959-60|7|6|5|11|6|35
1960-61|6|9|5|10|5|35
1961-62|6|9|5|9|6|35
1962-63|5|9|5|10|5|34
1963-64|5|9|6|10|5|35
1964-65|7|9|5|9|5|35
1965-66|5|10|4|8|7|34
1966-67|5|10|5|10|7|37
1967-68|6|9|6|10|7|38
1968-69|6|8|4|12|9|39
1969-70|6|9|4|9|9|37
1970-71|6|11|5|7|8|37
1971-72|5|12|3|7|8|35
1972-73|4|12|3|8|6|33
1973-74|5|12|4|9|5|35
1974-75|5|11|4|7|5|32
1975-76|5|9|4|7|6|31
1976-77|5|10|4|7|6|32
1977-78|5|10|5|6|6|32
1978-79|4|10|4|8|5|31
1979-80|6|12|6|8|3|35
1980-81|6|12|5|10|2|35
1981-82|7|12|5|11|3|38
1982-83|6|11|6|12|3|38
1983-84|6|12|7|11|3|39
1984-85|4|13|7|10|3|37
1985-86|3|12|6|9|3|33
1986-87|3|12|6|9|3|33
1987-88|3|11|5|9|3|31
1988-89|2|11|6|8|3|30
1989-90|1|10|5|9|2|27
1990-91|1|9|4|8|2|24
1991-92|1|9|4|8|2|24
1992-93|1|8|4|7|2|22
1993-94|1|9|4|6|2|22
1994-95||7|4|6|2|19
1995-96|1|6|4|6|2|19
1996-97|1|6|3|6|2|18
1997-98||5|1|6|2|14
1998-99||3||5|2|10
1999-00||2||5|2|9
2000-01||3||5|1|9
2001-02||3||2|1|6
2002-03||3||2|1|6
2003-04||3||2||5