Best Defensive Forward of All Time?

[Silky mitts]

I think defense is so subjective for forwards, like no forward does more for defense than one who can just control the puck in the offensive zone, but when I think of a 2 way forward I think of Fedorov

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It's a shame Zetterberg isn't on this list. And that he'll end his career without a Selke.

I'm a big fan of Datsyuk's but when the coach needed a player to shut down an elite player in the playoffs, Zetterberg was the first one over the boards.



As for the poll, most of those guys are two-way forwards so I'll go with Gainey.

 

[major major]

Bergie. This video is pure art if you appreciate defensive plays leading to offense.

Thanks for sharing this. Defensive plays are beautiful. I wish they were made into videos more often.

 

[amnesiac]

Recency bias and young posters going with Bergeron no doubt

Bergeron will go down as the best ever when its all said and done.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't have it handy but Clarke's defensive play at his peak was absurd. He was on the ice for roughly 20 GA in his peak years, during a high scoring era, with heavy minutes and without any defensive stalwarts on his line or behind him on defence.

According to hockey-reference, his best GA season was 51 GA in 71 GP, in 1977-78. His best per game season was 52 GA in 80 GP in 1974-75.

If you minus powerplay goals, his ES GA best was 19 in 1974-75 (52 total, but 33 on the PP).

That's pretty crazy, if hockey-reference is accurate.

 

[Iceman]

Not necessarily in this thread but I think people underrate defensively sound forwards from back in the day like Gainey and Clarke. They are not slower and have smarts like a caveman like some people make it out to be because they play in a different era. Try to find full games of these guys if you can, it looks exactly the same as that Bergeron video linked in this thread. Defensive ”specalists” have not evolved like people think they have.

 

[Binister]

Oh god Ukko Perkele told me to vote Lehtinen but in reality Fedorov is the choice.

 

[nowhereman]

Surprised by the lack of love for Clarke here. In 1975 and 1976, the Flyers outscored opposing teammates 5-1 when Clarke was on the ice and 3-2 when he was off the ice. He was on the ice for 19 even strengths goals in 1975. Yes, you read that right. 19 even strength goals in an 82 game season. Modern Selke candidates are usually on for double that and more.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Surprised by the lack of love for Clarke here. In 1975 and 1976, the Flyers outscored opposing teammates 5-1 when Clarke was on the ice and 3-2 when he was off the ice. He was on the ice for 19 even strengths goals in 1975. Yes, you read that right. 19 even strength goals in an 82 game season. Modern Selke candidates are usually on for double that and more.

It's a different era these days.

I believe in the lockout shortened season Bergeron wasn't on the ice for a PP goal against for 20-30 games. Pretty impressive as well.

 

[JackSlater]

According to hockey-reference, his best GA season was 51 GA in 71 GP, in 1977-78. His best per game season was 52 GA in 80 GP in 1974-75.

If you minus powerplay goals, his ES GA best was 19 in 1974-75 (52 total, but 33 on the PP).

That's pretty crazy, if hockey-reference is accurate.

Yes, I should have specified even strength, though Clarke was a very strong penalty killer as well. I don't think that any forward has a peak of defensive play that matches Clarke's.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Gainey
Clarke
Bergeron

Bergy probably best when all is said and done, even if his scoring slows down I can see him being a beast until 40.

 

[The Macho King]

Gainey
Clarke
Bergeron

Bergy probably best when all is said and done, even if his scoring slows down I can see him being a beast until 40.

Eh - Gainey also had Robinson, LaPointe, and Savard behind him to cover up any screw ups. I don't think any of the other forwards have had nearly the quality of Dmen backing them up.

I give it to Clarke by a hair. Nighbor is a guy I hear a lot about but I don't know enough to rank him frankly.

 

[oXo Cube]

Clarke won Hart trophies in direct competition with Bobby Orr. It wasn't because of his scoring, though he was obviously good at that.

EDIT: just voted and lmao at Fedorov

 

[StoneHands]

My top 5:
Clarke
Gainey
Bergeron
Carbonneau
Lehtinen

 

[dr robbie]

Nighbor is a guy I hear a lot about but I don't know enough to rank him frankly.

Man, is he in the kool-aid or something recently? A guy you virtually never hear about outside of HoH and he just keeps popping up. It worries me that he's going to be ranked higher than he should in the next list just because he keeps getting propped up.

 

[The Macho King]

Man, is he in the kool-aid or something recently? A guy you virtually never hear about outside of HoH and he just keeps popping up. It worries me that he's going to be ranked higher than he should in the next list just because he keeps getting propped up.

I think there's a push on HoH to raise awareness of periods that are often overlooked, and pre-NHL/early-NHL certainly qualifies as such a period. And if you determine greatness as standing out amongst your peers to account for changes in the game (a reasonable stance), some of these guys are going to get more attractive the more you learn about them.

 

[oXo Cube]

I think there's a push on HoH to raise awareness of periods that are often overlooked, and pre-NHL/early-NHL certainly qualifies as such a period. And if you determine greatness as standing out amongst your peers to account for changes in the game (a reasonable stance), some of these guys are going to get more attractive the more you learn about them.

I think in Nighbor's case we just have a player that was somewhat unfairly overlooked in the last project. That a few players(especially Pre-O6 era) would slip through the cracks in a project of this magnitude isn't really surprising or avoidable.

His stock has risen in the years since.

 

[StoneHands]

In 1975 Bobby Clarke was on the ice for 19 ES (actually non PP goals) goals against in 80 games. This is during a high scoring era much like the early 90s where the average game saw 6.88 goals. In an entire NHL season just 19 goals were scored against the Flyers at ES when he was on the ice and 88 were scored when everyone else was on the ice. That's .24 ES goals against per game or roughly 1 goal against every 4 games. The rest of the team allowed 1.10 ES goals against per game. Clarke was on the ice for just 17.7% of the ES goals against while playing upwards of half the game. I don't know if people can truly wrap their head around how incredible that is or the fact that the following year he essentially replicated those numbers.

Just to compare, Bergeron's best season would have been 2012 when he was on the ice for 35 goals against at ES while the rest of the Bruins that season allowed 121 goals against. That season the average goals per game was 5.48 which is well over a full goal less per game than Clarke's 1975 season. Bergeron was on the ice for .43 goals against per game while the rest of the team allowed 1.48 goals against per game. Bergeron was on the ice for 22.4% of the ES goals against.

Clarke played more minutes, allowed fewer goals against in a higher scoring era, a lesser percentage of goals against, and still managed to put up 116 points to Bergeron's 64.

This isn't to say Bergeron is overrated by any means. Bergeron is an absolute legendary two-way player but this just goes to show how simply incredible Clarke was.

This is also better than anything Gainey ever did as well. Gainey was an incredible defensive player and the fact that the Selke was basically made for him doesn't make him the best defensive forward, it just means they wants to create an award to highlight players who weren't already being recognized and receiving awards. If the Selke was around in the early 70's, Clarke for sure would have won at least 3 more and that's being conservative.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

They'll rename it the Bergy.

I like Michel Bergeron and all, and he was an okay coach, but renaming the Jack Adams for him is a stretch.
Voted Gainey here, just incredible longevity and he never tainted the award by getting too many points.
Lots of good candidates here and Patrice will be an all-timer down the road.

 

[HyPnOtiK]

In 1975 Bobby Clarke was on the ice for 19 ES (actually non PP goals) goals against in 80 games. This is during a high scoring era much like the early 90s where the average game saw 6.88 goals. In an entire NHL season just 19 goals were scored against the Flyers at ES when he was on the ice and 88 were scored when everyone else was on the ice. That's .24 ES goals against per game or roughly 1 every 4 games. The rest of the team allowed 1.10 ES goals against per game. Clarke was on the ice for just 17.7% of the ES goals against while playing upwards of half the game. I don't know if people can truly wrap their head around how incredible that is or the fact that the following year he essentially replicated those numbers.

Just to compare, Bergeron's best season would have been 2012 when he was on the ice for 35 goals against at ES while the rest of the Bruins that season allowed 121 goals against. That season the average goals per game was 5.48 which is well over a full goal less per game than Clarke's 1975 season. Bergeron was on the ice for .43 goals against per game while the rest of the team allowed 1.48 goals against per game. Bergeron was on the ice for 22.4% of the ES goals against.

Clarke played more minutes, allowed fewer goals against in a higher scoring era, a lesser percentage of goals against, and still managed to put up 116 points to Bergeron's 64.

This isn't to say Bergeron is overrated by any means. Bergeron is an absolute legendary two-way player but this just goes to show how simply incredible Clarke was.

This is also better than anything Gainey ever did as well. Gainey was an incredible defensive player and the fact that the Selke was basically made for him doesn't make him the best defensive forward, it just means they wants to create an award to highlight players who weren't already being recognized and receiving awards. If the Selke was around in the early 70's, Clarke for sure would have won at least 3 more and that's being conservative.

Yup, it's Clarke, by a fair margin. He's unmatched defensively

 

[Voight]

Didn't they invent the Selke to award how good Gainey was defensively?

Essentially yes - Clarke also won it before he retired (and likely would have one or two more had it been around earlier) but it got to a point where they had a crazy good defensive player but no way to acknowledge or honor him.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Bergeron 2nd place in voting...kids these days...

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

In 1975 Bobby Clarke was on the ice for 19 ES (actually non PP goals) goals against in 80 games. This is during a high scoring era much like the early 90s where the average game saw 6.88 goals. In an entire NHL season just 19 goals were scored against the Flyers at ES when he was on the ice and 88 were scored when everyone else was on the ice. That's .24 ES goals against per game or roughly 1 goal against every 4 games. The rest of the team allowed 1.10 ES goals against per game. Clarke was on the ice for just 17.7% of the ES goals against while playing upwards of half the game. I don't know if people can truly wrap their head around how incredible that is or the fact that the following year he essentially replicated those numbers.

Just to compare, Bergeron's best season would have been 2012 when he was on the ice for 35 goals against at ES while the rest of the Bruins that season allowed 121 goals against. That season the average goals per game was 5.48 which is well over a full goal less per game than Clarke's 1975 season. Bergeron was on the ice for .43 goals against per game while the rest of the team allowed 1.48 goals against per game. Bergeron was on the ice for 22.4% of the ES goals against.

Clarke played more minutes, allowed fewer goals against in a higher scoring era, a lesser percentage of goals against, and still managed to put up 116 points to Bergeron's 64.

This isn't to say Bergeron is overrated by any means. Bergeron is an absolute legendary two-way player but this just goes to show how simply incredible Clarke was.

This is also better than anything Gainey ever did as well. Gainey was an incredible defensive player and the fact that the Selke was basically made for him doesn't make him the best defensive forward, it just means they wants to create an award to highlight players who weren't already being recognized and receiving awards. If the Selke was around in the early 70's, Clarke for sure would have won at least 3 more and that's being conservative.

The kids these days will never understand how good Clarke was on both ends of the ice...heck most won't even read past the 1st sentence on the post above.

The same ones that question Gretzky's "Greatness"....

 

[streitz]

It's a different era these days.

I believe in the lockout shortened season Bergeron wasn't on the ice for a PP goal against for 20-30 games. Pretty impressive as well.

Mario Lemieux never scored a PP goal against Carbonneau.

 

[streitz]

Yup, it's Clarke, by a fair margin. He's unmatched defensively