Confirmed with Link: Bertuzzi signs two-year deal

jkutswings

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I'm not trolling at all.
Bernier had a .914 s% on a dumpster fire team.
Neds had a .932 on a solid team with deep defence. He has a whopping 29 games of NHL experience. He's a solid prospect at this point and the trade was a great move imo. Does it translate into a lot more wins while returning to normal divisions? Of course not.
Chicago simply passed on Suter. I'm pretty sure its not because he's a Selke candidate. He put up 27 points and a -5 playing with Patrick Kane and Alex Debrincat.
Luke put up 15 points and a +3 playing with Darren Helm and Adam Erne. So no. I don't see this as a massive upgrade. Why would I?
Of course Leddy is better than Merril. That's why I said he probably leads to 3% worse lottery odds.
Of course I don't expect Seider to be better than Nemeth as a rookie. There's a massive jump from the SHL to the NHL. Certainly Seider projects to have a solid career but he's proven nothing in the NHL. Scotty Bowman says dmen need 250 NHL games to get it.
So given a much tougher schedule I don't see this massive improvement. I'm not sure I see marginal improvement.
I think we just have different player evaluations.

I see a full season of Vrana and consider that an overall boost to the offense.
I see Leddy adding offense as well, because none of the defensemen last year could hit the forwards with a pass unless it was in their feet.
I see Seider taking half a season of third pairing duty before essentially becoming a decent second pairing guy, even as a rookie - which is a net win versus last year.
I see guys like Larkin and Fabbri and hopefully Bertuzzi rebounding a bit, due to a combination of health and better coaching on special teams and better luck.
I see Zadina poised to finally take a significant next step, and Rasmussen to make incremental growth.
I see Raymond and Berggren challenging for roster spots in the second half, and being better than the guys they're replacing.

Last year was basically trying to win every game 1-0 and letting offense die a painful death as a result. I see this year as the year that younger players start to gel together and lay the foundation for climbing the standings over the next several seasons. (Not to the point of challenging for a playoff spot yet, but being 10th to 12th worst instead of 4th to 6th worst.)
 

Revenge of Gru

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We can agree to disagree that Detroit didn't get better, and your comment about Detroit's lottery odds becoming 3% worse would be a good indication that we did indeed get better (It's the jump from 6th to 10th in the standings) but I don't think I can change your mind here. I'm not a fan of arguing in circles.

But you're still failing to address my previous point that there are several teams that got worse. At least 4 teams are outright tanking for Wright and we'd have to sign a roster of Sam Gagners to compete with them.
When I said 3% worse odds I meant 3% worse than if we hadn't traded for Leddy. Currently we have the lowest payroll in the league. Not exactly poised for success. Trafing for Leddy and setting up to move on from Bert are disappointing developments to me. Holland would have gotten crucified for either move and righfully so. Having lurked around here for awhile I know that prospects are always vastly superior to actual NHL players but I don't believe that to be the case.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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When I said 3% worse odds I meant 3% worse than if we hadn't traded for Leddy. Currently we have the lowest payroll in the league. Not exactly poised for success. Trafing for Leddy and setting up to move on from Bert are disappointing developments to me. Holland would have gotten crucified for either move and righfully so. Having lurked around here for awhile I know that prospects are always vastly superior to actual NHL players but I don't believe that to be the case.

We have the lowest payroll in the league because Hronek and Vrana don't have new deals yet.

We will probably play with a roster in the 65 million range, +/- 2.75 million. That will be near the bottom of the league. There's nobody worth spending big bucks on left in free agency. We're still looking at finishing in the bottom third of the league. Why spend above that?
 

jaster

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Leddy is a big upgrade from last season to this season, and that's because he's essentially replacing a blank void that opposition teams were able to exploit last season. He's filling the role of top-4 LHD who can generate some offense and run a PP, a role that was covered last season by a patchwork strategy of Merrill, Staal, DDK, and Nemeth getting rotating amounts of top-4 ES minutes, and Djoos and Cholowski covering LHD PP minutes. Horrible. That was horrible. Part of the reason Detroit was so bad last season is because they didn't have that role properly filled. And they paid for it.

Suter is also a significant upgrade. And it's not over LFG, who filled a completely different role. Suter is replacing Namestnikov as the 2C. And regardless of what you think of Suter, he should pretty easily be at least a small upgrade over Namestnikov, because Namestnikov was horrible as the 2C.

Other potential upgrades that could improve the team this season will include a healthier season from Fabbri, a healthier season from Bertuzzi, a full season from Vrana, a reduced role for Namestnikov (bottom-6 winger), improvements from young players like Zadina and Rasmussen, and the addition of Seider. It almost doesn't matter how much Seider may struggle, he's an upgrade for the defense because the defense was simply that bad last season. And even with some struggles, Seider is going to be able to do some things none of our defensemen last season could do.

Stephens/Pearson are a downgrade from LFG, and Nedeljkovic is most likely a downgrade from Bernier. But in both cases Detroit is opening the door for long-term solutions in those roles.... long-term solutions that would not be accomplished with 30+ aged players. So while Detroit may take a hit in the short-term, they are changes geared toward the long-term.

Overall, it's pretty clearly an improved roster.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Leddy is a big upgrade from last season to this season, and that's because he's essentially replacing a blank void that opposition teams were able to exploit last season. He's filling the role of top-4 LHD who can generate some offense and run a PP, a role that was covered last season by a patchwork strategy of Merrill, Staal, DDK, and Nemeth getting rotating amounts of top-4 ES minutes, and Djoos and Cholowski covering LHD PP minutes. Horrible. That was horrible. Part of the reason Detroit was so bad last season is because they didn't have that role properly filled. And they paid for it.

Suter is also a significant upgrade. And it's not over LFG, who filled a completely different role. Suter is replacing Namestnikov as the 2C. And regardless of what you think of Suter, he should pretty easily be at least a small upgrade over Namestnikov, because Namestnikov was horrible as the 2C.

Other potential upgrades that could improve the team this season will include a healthier season from Fabbri, a healthier season from Bertuzzi, a full season from Vrana, a reduced role for Namestnikov (bottom-6 winger), improvements from young players like Zadina and Rasmussen, and the addition of Seider. It almost doesn't matter how much Seider may struggle, he's an upgrade for the defense because the defense was simply that bad last season. And even with some struggles, Seider is going to be able to do some things none of our defensemen last season could do.

Stephens/Pearson are a downgrade from LFG, and Nedeljkovic is most likely a downgrade from Bernier. But in both cases Detroit is opening the door for long-term solutions in those roles.... long-term solutions that would not be accomplished with 30+ aged players. So while Detroit may take a hit in the short-term, they are changes geared toward the long-term.

Overall, it's pretty clearly an improved roster.

I'm in agreement.

What I don't understand is the automatic assumption that Seider as a rookie will struggle to adapt and why some people think he is going to start on the third pair. Last season Stecher played 3rd pair minutes (18ish a night) with no special teams time. I don't expect that to change just because Seider is a rookie.

Furthermore, we are now 2 years past Seider's draft and 3 years into his pro hockey career against grown men. (DEL, AHL, and SHL). He was DEL rookie of the year, top defenseman at the WJC20 D1A , was the best player on the Grand Rapids Griffins on any given night in 2019-20 while being deserving of the top defenseman of the WJC20s that year. Then in 2020-21 won SHL best defenseman and a silver medal in Rogle, best defenseman at the IIHF WHC while helping Germany get to its first medal game in decades. That doesn't look like someone who will struggle as they move up.

He is the Wings best prospect since Zetterberg was in the system (That's 19 years, folks) and people are talking about needing to shelter him on the bottom pair like he's Jakub f***ing Kindl despite the fact that he's been thrown into the fire at various levels and excelled. Every part of his game translates up and everything we have seen is evidence that Seider can adjust and adapt incredibly fast.

Are people here afraid of being wrong? Or did they have their hearts broken too many times during the Holland years and don't want to get their hopes up about our prospects? Or because of the "over-ripening" philosophy we used to have that a few people on this board still think is best for the team to bring him in slow? Because that shouldn't be a one size fits all approach. Just like not all rookie defensemen struggle. Look at Makar, Werenski, Heiskanen, Adam Fox, Quinn Hughes in recent years. None had a perfect season as rookies but they all looked great. Seider is that level of prospect. He may not score as much as those guys did as a rookie but I'm expecting him to have a really solid season.
 
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deca guard

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OAF :
- im waiting for you to inform us who this perfect gm is that your comparing yzerman to , as if yzermans done a mediocre job and theres somebody thats made all the right moves ands done way better than him . who is this superior gm ? you know as in nhl gm'ing nobodys EVER been anywhere near perfect and if you want to rate a gm theres only one way = vs what other gms have done and not vs perfection which NOBODY HAS ATTAINED . but keep ignorantly cherry picking his weak moves
- and who else do you think besides yzerman built tbay into the dynasty it now stands as ?????????????
- and way to ignore all yzermans great moves which have led to tbays current power house
- go fly a kite
 
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Revenge of Gru

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OAF :
- im waiting for you to inform us who this perfect gm is that your comparing yzerman to , as if yzermans done a mediocre job and theres somebody thats made all the right moves ands done way better than him . who is this superior gm ? you know as in nhl gm'ing nobodys EVER been anywhere near perfect and if you want to rate a gm theres only one way = vs what other gms have done and not vs perfection which NOBODY HAS ATTAINED . but keep ignorantly cherry picking his weak moves
- and who else do you think besides yzerman built tbay into the dynasty it now stands as ?????????????
- and way to ignore all yzermans great moves which have led to tbays current power house
- go fly a kite

I think Yzerman is a great GM. He does blunder though. IMO he blundered the Bert situation and Leddy was a dumb move. Renting a 30 year old Dman so we can get worse lottery odds when we don't have a single top end center in the system is dumb. We aren't sniffing the playoffs. There was no point in paying assets for Leddy.
 

Revenge of Gru

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I think we just have different player evaluations.

I see a full season of Vrana and consider that an overall boost to the offense.
I see Leddy adding offense as well, because none of the defensemen last year could hit the forwards with a pass unless it was in their feet.
I see Seider taking half a season of third pairing duty before essentially becoming a decent second pairing guy, even as a rookie - which is a net win versus last year.
I see guys like Larkin and Fabbri and hopefully Bertuzzi rebounding a bit, due to a combination of health and better coaching on special teams and better luck.
I see Zadina poised to finally take a significant next step, and Rasmussen to make incremental growth.
I see Raymond and Berggren challenging for roster spots in the second half, and being better than the guys they're replacing.

Last year was basically trying to win every game 1-0 and letting offense die a painful death as a result. I see this year as the year that younger players start to gel together and lay the foundation for climbing the standings over the next several seasons. (Not to the point of challenging for a playoff spot yet, but being 10th to 12th worst instead of 4th to 6th worst.)

I agree which is why I see the Leddy deal as dumb. We need centers. We don't want to end up back in purgatory. Not picking high enough to get stars but still losing too much.
 

jkutswings

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I agree which is why I see the Leddy deal as dumb. We need centers. We don't want to end up back in purgatory. Not picking high enough to get stars but still losing too much.
Ok. But I'm saying that if finding a 1C is a 9/10 priority, then mentoring Seider is a 7/10. And it's a BOTH/AND, not an EITHER/OR. You can sacrifice 1-2 places in the pre-lottery standings to make sure your best prospect in a decade isn't thrown into the fire without a few decent guys around him on the blue line.
 
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jaster

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I'm in agreement.

What I don't understand is the automatic assumption that Seider as a rookie will struggle to adapt and why some people think he is going to start on the third pair. Last season Stecher played 3rd pair minutes (18ish a night) with no special teams time. I don't expect that to change just because Seider is a rookie.

Furthermore, we are now 2 years past Seider's draft and 3 years into his pro hockey career against grown men. (DEL, AHL, and SHL). He was DEL rookie of the year, top defenseman at the WJC20 D1A , was the best player on the Grand Rapids Griffins on any given night in 2019-20 while being deserving of the top defenseman of the WJC20s that year. Then in 2020-21 won SHL best defenseman and a silver medal in Rogle, best defenseman at the IIHF WHC while helping Germany get to its first medal game in decades. That doesn't look like someone who will struggle as they move up.

He is the Wings best prospect since Zetterberg was in the system (That's 19 years, folks) and people are talking about needing to shelter him on the bottom pair like he's Jakub f***ing Kindl despite the fact that he's been thrown into the fire at various levels and excelled. Every part of his game translates up and everything we have seen is evidence that Seider can adjust and adapt incredibly fast.

Are people here afraid of being wrong? Or did they have their hearts broken too many times during the Holland years and don't want to get their hopes up about our prospects? Or because of the "over-ripening" philosophy we used to have that a few people on this board still think is best for the team to bring him in slow? Because that shouldn't be a one size fits all approach. Just like not all rookie defensemen struggle. Look at Makar, Werenski, Heiskanen, Adam Fox, Quinn Hughes in recent years. None had a perfect season as rookies but they all looked great. Seider is that level of prospect. He may not score as much as those guys did as a rookie but I'm expecting him to have a really solid season.

I don't know, man, there are a lot of weird ass opinions on this forum :laugh:

I can only speak for myself, but I'm allowing for a pretty wide range of outcomes for Seider, simply because he's a rookie and the NHL is indeed very difficult. I won't pretend to know exactly how much he'll struggle, but I do expect him to be a pretty constant mainstay in the top-4. And my suspicion is that my expectation is the floor for him. But even if he falls short, he'd have to fall very short for it to change my long-term expectations for him.

I do agree that the people expecting mostly 3rd-pair are selling him short, and the couple people I've seen say he'll play most of the season in GR are crazy :loony:
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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I think Yzerman is a great GM. He does blunder though. IMO he blundered the Bert situation and Leddy was a dumb move. Renting a 30 year old Dman so we can get worse lottery odds when we don't have a single top end center in the system is dumb. We aren't sniffing the playoffs. There was no point in paying assets for Leddy.

How did Yzerman blunder the Bertuzzi situation?

Also giving up a 2nd round pick for a legit top 4 defenseman that makes this team better is dumb?

Go be a Buffalo fan if you want to watch a team spin it's wheels in the mud. I want to see Yzerman and the Wings actively try to improve every year.
 
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Run the Jewels

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Go be a Buffalo fan if you want to watch a team spin it's wheels in the mud. I want to see Yzerman and the Wings actively try to improve every year.

Yeah, IIRC Yzerman said something about how guys wouldn't be able to handle all the losing that has been going on for all these years. You need to start making some headway in terms of being competitive and feeling like the playoffs are in the not too far off distant future, not a cruel joke. Throw in the fact the lottery is not a sure-thing and it seems like a bad idea to try to outstink the worst franchises in the league.

Yzerman will figure out a way to manage the lack of depth for scoring line centers. It may be free agency, it may be a trade, we may luck our way into drafting one. But actively rooting to be the worst team in the league just doesn't seem like a great way to live your life. I was in that group that accepted that we were the worst team in the league for several years and hoped we could win the lottery but those days are gone.
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

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Lost in all of this is the long term effect of how the players that lose most nights feel. It's gotta be frustrating if/when they're giving 110%, only to lose by 1-2+++ goals & feel worthless after. Day after day, week after week, month after month, season after season. Or, see Mantha float making $5.3m.

A big part of insulating the youngins with a few vets, is to manage the mental part of it. The depression, anxiety etc. Yep, even the best professional athletes feel them over extended periods of time. 5+ yr. rebuilds. I think Larkin fell prey to it a bit last season.

On that note, lots to like about the future, the future is Now.

I can see us being a .515% club, ~20th OA. (assuming no major health issues/injuries)
 
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OgeeOgelthorpe

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Yeah, IIRC Yzerman said something about how guys wouldn't be able to handle all the losing that has been going on for all these years. You need to start making some headway in terms of being competitive and feeling like the playoffs are in the not too far off distant future, not a cruel joke. Throw in the fact the lottery is not a sure-thing and it seems like a bad idea to try to outstink the worst franchises in the league.

Yzerman will figure out a way to manage the lack of depth for scoring line centers. It may be free agency, it may be a trade, we may luck our way into drafting one. But actively rooting to be the worst team in the league just doesn't seem like a great way to live your life. I was in that group that accepted that we were the worst team in the league for several years and hoped we could win the lottery but those days are gone.

There's also a ton of hoopla about "elite scoring centers" when the last 3 cup winners the only true center on St. Louis or Tampa Bay that was a top 5 pick (Stamkos has been a right wing for a few years now) is Brayden Schenn, St. Louis' 2nd line center.
Ryan OReilly was a 2nd round pick. Point and Cirelli were 3rd round picks. Yanni Gourde was undrafted.

Yzerman has fully addressed the issue of defensive depth in our prospect pool. And the 2022 draft has probably 5 or 6 centers in the top 10 in the too-early-to-tell rankings. And who knows? With the Vrana arbitration situation we may have another 1st round pick for next year.
 
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Revenge of Gru

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Ok. But I'm saying that if finding a 1C is a 9/10 priority, then mentoring Seider is a 7/10. And it's a BOTH/AND, not an EITHER/OR. You can sacrifice 1-2 places in the pre-lottery standings to make sure your best prospect in a decade isn't thrown into the fire without a few decent guys around him on the blue line.

Maybe sometime in the next decade we can acci
How did Yzerman blunder the Bertuzzi situation?

Also giving up a 2nd round pick for a legit top 4 defenseman that makes this team better is dumb?

Go be a Buffalo fan if you want to watch a team spin it's wheels in the mud. I want to see Yzerman and the Wings actively try to improve every year.
Last year Yzerman failed to lock up a few UFA years with Bert so they went to arbitration and signed a 1 year deal. Now they sign a 2 year deal which will only lead to Bert being traded or leaving as a UFA.

Buffalo drafted a generational center and dman. They blew the rebuild in other ways but it wasn't because they traded assets for 1 year of 30 year old Nick Leddy before they had a single top end center.
So now the plan is to pick in the middle of the 1st round forever or until we get a McDavid that everyone missed? Where do we get the centers we need to contend?
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

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Maybe sometime in the next decade we can acci

Last year Yzerman failed to lock up a few UFA years with Bert so they went to arbitration and signed a 1 year deal. Now they sign a 2 year deal which will only lead to Bert being traded or leaving as a UFA.

So now the plan is to pick in the middle of the 1st round forever or until we get a McDavid that everyone missed? Where do we get the centers we need to contend?

iirc Bert got less in his Arb. Award last summer than what SY offered, so that's a win.

Secondly, it gave SY more time to assess Bert's true value, one not necessarily inflated by tons of TOI/L1 w/Larkin & Mantha on their collective hot streaks + PP1 opps. Slotted properly on a contender Bert is a #6F/#7on peak TB. At most he's your 3rd best W, but probably 4th.

I'm sure SY has a vision that he tweaks as needed (constantly), but it's not so cut & dry as you pose it to be. He has the cojon*s to trade up in the draft when needed.

If anything, Bert's back & injury issues in his career show a trend that does lower his asking price in contracts, but also in some trade value loss. It's a blessing in disguise he got hurt this year, instead of signing some fat $5.5+ *7y NTC type deal.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Maybe sometime in the next decade we can acci

Last year Yzerman failed to lock up a few UFA years with Bert so they went to arbitration and signed a 1 year deal. Now they sign a 2 year deal which will only lead to Bert being traded or leaving as a UFA.

Buffalo drafted a generational center and dman. They blew the rebuild in other ways but it wasn't because they traded assets for 1 year of 30 year old Nick Leddy before they had a single top end center.
So now the plan is to pick in the middle of the 1st round forever or until we get a McDavid that everyone missed? Where do we get the centers we need to contend?

Bert isn't the kind of guy you lock up on a 7 year contract. He's a 2nd/3rd line winger on any other team than Detroit that can get you 50 points. Don't delude yourself into thinking that he's a legit core piece. Legit core pieces are your franchise cornerstone players like true top pairing defensemen and true top line forwards or goalies that can start 60+ games a year.

Also I wouldn't call Eichel or Dahlin generational. Franchise level talents? Debatable. But how many playoff wins do they have? How's Buffalo looking right now?
And look at Toronto with Matthews as their generational center. How many playoff wins does he have? Or McDavid in Edmonton?

Look at Kopitar: drafted 11th overall. Jonathan Toews was drafted 3rd overall and was never the "generational" top line center. OReilly was a 2nd round pick. Point was a 3rd, Zetterberg was a 7th and Datsyuk was a 6th round pick. Getzlaf was a 19th overall pick. Bergeron was a 2nd round pick. Jeff Carter was 11th overall. Mike Richards was 24th overall.

Malkin, Crosby, Toews, Eric Staal and Brayden Schenn are the only centers since the 2005 lockout that were top 5 picks on cup winners. And Yzerman isn't done building this team. We're 3 years away from being in playoff contention on a yearly basis. Even more before being a true contender.

I don't understand this fixation on the Nick Leddy trade. We didn't trade the 6th overall pick for him. We traded the 52nd overall pick for him. You're also completely ignoring the fact that Leddy can be traded.
 

jkutswings

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So now the plan is to pick in the middle of the 1st round forever or until we get a McDavid that everyone missed? Where do we get the centers we need to contend?
The plan, as far as I can tell, has not changed. Shed bad contracts, evaluate who is part of the long term plans, and work the draft accordingly.

This summer had the greatest emphasis on goaltending and defense. Next year it would be logical to skew towards forwards, and particularly centers.

Having the worst record in the league by a large margin yielded the 4th pick. Who was a forward. So there's no guarantees, and you can't just tank forever until you recycle every last player and prospect into a #1 overall (who might end up being an Owen Power instead of a Connor McDavid).

So I'd expect one of two things to happen for the Wings to address the 1C:

Either they luck into a lottery pick when a great center prospect(s) is there, or they continue to take BPA at other positions until they trade a surplus of them for said center.

Shane Wright happens to be my favorite solution to the problem. But having a good GM means that it's far from the only workable option.
 
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Lil Sebastian Cossa

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I'm in agreement.

What I don't understand is the automatic assumption that Seider as a rookie will struggle to adapt and why some people think he is going to start on the third pair. Last season Stecher played 3rd pair minutes (18ish a night) with no special teams time. I don't expect that to change just because Seider is a rookie.

Furthermore, we are now 2 years past Seider's draft and 3 years into his pro hockey career against grown men. (DEL, AHL, and SHL). He was DEL rookie of the year, top defenseman at the WJC20 D1A , was the best player on the Grand Rapids Griffins on any given night in 2019-20 while being deserving of the top defenseman of the WJC20s that year. Then in 2020-21 won SHL best defenseman and a silver medal in Rogle, best defenseman at the IIHF WHC while helping Germany get to its first medal game in decades. That doesn't look like someone who will struggle as they move up.

He is the Wings best prospect since Zetterberg was in the system (That's 19 years, folks) and people are talking about needing to shelter him on the bottom pair like he's Jakub f***ing Kindl despite the fact that he's been thrown into the fire at various levels and excelled. Every part of his game translates up and everything we have seen is evidence that Seider can adjust and adapt incredibly fast.

Are people here afraid of being wrong? Or did they have their hearts broken too many times during the Holland years and don't want to get their hopes up about our prospects? Or because of the "over-ripening" philosophy we used to have that a few people on this board still think is best for the team to bring him in slow? Because that shouldn't be a one size fits all approach. Just like not all rookie defensemen struggle. Look at Makar, Werenski, Heiskanen, Adam Fox, Quinn Hughes in recent years. None had a perfect season as rookies but they all looked great. Seider is that level of prospect. He may not score as much as those guys did as a rookie but I'm expecting him to have a really solid season.

It's less that I think he'll be on a third pairing and that I'm wary of just assuming he'll step into the NHL and be good on the top pairing. Or if he is that he won't run headlong into a wall about 40 games in.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
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Maybe sometime in the next decade we can acci

Last year Yzerman failed to lock up a few UFA years with Bert so they went to arbitration and signed a 1 year deal. Now they sign a 2 year deal which will only lead to Bert being traded or leaving as a UFA.

Buffalo drafted a generational center and dman. They blew the rebuild in other ways but it wasn't because they traded assets for 1 year of 30 year old Nick Leddy before they had a single top end center.
So now the plan is to pick in the middle of the 1st round forever or until we get a McDavid that everyone missed? Where do we get the centers we need to contend?

From the draft. From trades. Hell, you can even sign one if he comes onto the market. One would think that watching the draft odds and seeing the Wings get shut out of the two elite level C prospects by the lottery would show you that the answer isn't "suck until you're good".
 

Steve Yzerlland

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I don't mean they won't be good. They probably will be very good but neither is the type of physical, dirty areas type that Bert is. Bert is the perfect playoff player.
How many playoffs games have you seen of him?
Could you post his playoff stats I can't find them?
 

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