Friedman: Bergevin’s asks for Pacioretty

[smirob]

There have been a lot of threads about trading Galchenyuk and some involving Gallagher, both are young enough and signed long enough to help MTL long term.

I’m doubtful Max would actually resign at this point

 

[Gaud]

31 Thoughts: Why Karlsson, Pacioretty deadline deals fell flat - Sportsnet.ca

Apparently it was:

Toffoli + Vilardi + from LA

Coyle + from the Wild

Trocheck from the Panthers

yeah.. i know there are rumors, and we dont know what the plusses are, but as a habs fan, im very skeptical about these claims.. for one.. i dont think any of those are even... to me LA's ask is much more than the other two, and even the other two dont seem even .. to be honest, id be extatic with a Thomas and second from the blues. Thomas plays with our boy Bitten .. so why not?

 

[KingsHockey24]

Toffoli+Vilardi for an aging 30 goal scorer? Ooof.

 

[Gaud]

I don't get Bergevin's obsession with asking for a roster player back on top of it. It's not like we're going to compete in the near future.

i agree with this.. why ask for a player that can play now? unless there is a salary cap thing involved, we would get more value out of straight-up prospects if there are no roster players involved

 

[belair]

why cant he do the same With Gallagher Drouin or Galchenyuk, why must it always be Pacioretty? hes already committed his future to 2 similiarly aged players in Price and Weber ?

Because Pacioretty has the greatest value and he's also going to ultimately cost you A LOT of money to re-sign. The players you've mentioned are signed to term within the time-frame that is the prime playing years of the two players I've mentioned. The Habs shouldn't be outside the playoff picture with the commitments they've made to those two players. Moving any of those other players out would be a half-measure. You'd get a lacklustre return and you'd be ridding the roster of its younger parts.

 

[belair]

why cant he do the same With Gallagher Drouin or Galchenyuk, why must it always be Pacioretty? hes already committed his future to 2 similiarly aged players in Price and Weber ?

what has pacioretty done to be the one cast aside?

im sure other teams would pay more for Drouin

They wouldn't pay more than what Montreal gave up.

 

[72hockey guy]

Because Pacioretty has the greatest value and he's also going to ultimately cost you A LOT of money to re-sign. The players you've mentioned are signed to term within the time-frame that is the prime playing years of the two players I've mentioned. The Habs shouldn't be outside the playoff picture with the commitments they've made to those two players. Moving any of those other players out would be a half-measure. You'd get a lacklustre return and you'd be ridding the roster of its younger parts.

then if thats the case your admitting that pacioretty holds less value to you and if he holds less value to you, why is it so hard to admit that he holds less value for the same reasons to other teams

you cant have it both ways, yet habs fans in general see to think they can

 

[72hockey guy]

They wouldn't pay more than what Montreal gave up.

probably not but they would give up more for Drouin than they would for pacioretty

yet hab fans are repeatedly asking for more for pacioretty than they gave up for Drouin

how is that not hypocrytical

thats been my argument from the beginning allong with trading Subban and letting Markov walk
none of this was pacioretty's fault

 

[belair]

then if thats the case your admitting that pacioretty holds less value to you and if he holds less value to you, why is it so hard to admit that he holds less value for the same reasons to other teams

you cant have it both ways, yet habs fans in general see to think they can

Pacioretty is a 30 goal winger who's signed for $4.5m. That's unheard of. For a team gunning for a championship, that's a very valuable player because their focus is on that one year. The Habs have to worry about his next contract because their moves at this point should be focused on more than just a one year window.

In a vacuum, Pacioretty is the best forward and for a team with Cup aspirations, he's the best add. They were stupid to not trade him at the deadline.

 

[belair]

probably not but they would give up more for Drouin than they would for pacioretty

yet hab fans are repeatedly asking for more for pacioretty than they gave up for Drouin

how is that not hypocrytical

Pacioretty is worth more than Drouin. Significantly.

 

[72hockey guy]

Pacioretty is worth more than Drouin. Significantly.

for the very reasons you gave for not trading drouin instead youre wrong

youth and contract term do matter

if not and you can get the same for Drouin or Pacioretty, why are you so adamant on trading Pacioretty and not drouin

after all You just said Pacioretty is significantly MORE valuable

so if Drouin can get what you want when Pacioretty cant why not trade drouin

 

[belair]

for the very reasons you gave for not trading drouin instead youre wrong

youth and contract term do matter

Not for a team that wants to win NEXT SEASON. Max Pacioretty is a significantly better player than Drouin. And for a team looking for a goal scoring left winger, they're going to want the goal scoring left winger. Some teams value pure rentals over long-term commitments and those are the teams you should be catering to.

Honestly, I don't see the logic in moving Drouin so soon after the deal. You've got a young player signed long-term to grow with this group. And you're saying trade him over the 30 year old UFA? Makes little sense.

 

[72hockey guy]

Not for a team that wants to win NEXT SEASON. Max Pacioretty is a significantly better player than Drouin. And for a team looking for a goal scoring left winger, they're going to want the goal scoring left winger. Some teams value pure rentals over long-term commitments and those are the teams you should be catering to.

Honestly, I don't see the logic in moving Drouin so soon after the deal. You've got a young player signed long-term to grow with this group. And you're saying trade him over the 30 year old UFA? Makes little sense.

it makes perfect sense if one player can get you more than another, then that player has more value period.

you keep making excuses but facts are facts, you keep trying to say Pacioretty is more valuable but if nobody will give you what you want for him, then he simply isnt as valuable as you think and you saying it 100, 1000 , even one million times doesnt change that.

no contending team was willing to give what you asked for. sooner or later you have no choice but to accept reality

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

Toffoli, Vilardi and a First? Thats such a massive overpay.

From a Habs point of view, it seems well balanced.

 

[4thlineduster]

probably not but they would give up more for Drouin than they would for pacioretty

yet hab fans are repeatedly asking for more for pacioretty than they gave up for Drouin

how is that not hypocrytical

thats been my argument from the beginning allong with trading Subban and letting Markov walk
none of this was pacioretty's fault

Why would you think Drouin whose career best season for points is 53 would be worth more than Paccioretti who had four consecutive 30 goal seasons until this year?

Have fans are correct to ask for more for Paccioretti than they gave up for Drouin because Paccioretti is worth more

 

[72hockey guy]

Why would you think Drouin whose career best season for points is 53 would be worth more than Paccioretti who had four consecutive 30 goals seasons until this year?

That’s not even factoring in Drouin’s attitude problems

easy, because just like you place a value on youth and contract terms and current production, so do other teams, other teams dont care how pacioretty performed for you in the past, they care how they think pacioretty will perform for them in the future

if they think Drouin is the better bet all things considered than Drouin will hold better value. All teams play by the same rules and cap space and player years of control are all part of value

for they same reasons you would rather trade Pacioretty and keep Drouin, they to would make the same decision

 

[4thlineduster]

easy, because just like you place a value on youth and contract terms and current production, so do other teams, other teams dont care how pacioretty performed for you in the past, they care how they think pacioretty will perform for them in the future

if they think Drouin is the better bet all things considered than Drouin will hold better value. All teams play by the same rules and cap space and player years of control are all part of value

I get that, but what would lead anyone to believe Drouin will be better? He’s never had good point totals and regressed this year stats wise.

That’s not factoring in his attitude issues.

Drouin is a serviceable NHLer who was vastly overvalued by Mtl because he’s a Franco boy from Quebec.

His value, in my opinion, is not overly high to other NHL clubs as was evidenced by nobody offering what Yzerman wanted when he was on the block.

 

[belair]

it makes perfect sense if one player can get you more than another, then that player has more value period.

you keep making excuses but facts are facts, you keep trying to say Pacioretty is more valuable but if nobody will give you what you want for him, then he simply isnt as valuable as you think and you saying it 100, 1000 , even one million times doesnt change that.

no contending team was willing to give what you asked for. sooner or later you have no choice but to accept reality

Max Pacioretty is 30 and will require you to spend an exorbitant amount of money to keep on the Canadiens roster beyond this year. Drouin is 23 and is signed for the next half decade at a very reasonable clip. Even if Drouin were worth more in terms of a trade return--however minimal the difference in value--it still makes absolutely no sense for them long-term. I can't explain that any clearer.

I'm not a Habs fan, but looking at real life comparables on previous trade markets, a player like Pacioretty with his low cap hit is worth significantly more than you've given him credit for.

 

[72hockey guy]

Why would you think Drouin whose career best season for points is 53 would be worth more than Paccioretti who had four consecutive 30 goal seasons until this year?

Have fans are correct to ask for more for Paccioretti than they gave up for Drouin because Paccioretti is worth more

not to the fans of other teams. otherwise they'd have traded for Pacioretty, and they havent. obviously fans of other teams dont agree with your premise. your original request has come down significantly, from 2 1sts and a top prospect to whatever it is now, and still youre no closer to a trade. sooner or later you have to accept his value is worth no more than what you actually recieve in return, no matter how many times you claim otherwise.

 

[4thlineduster]

not to the fans of other teams. otherwise they'd have traded for Pacioretty, and they havent. obviously fans of other teams dont agree with your premise. your original request has come down significantly, from 2 1sts and a top prospect to whatever it is now, and still youre no closer to a trade. sooner or later you have to accept his value is worth no more than what you actually recieve in return, no matter how many times you claim otherwise.

I’m not debating a player is only worth as much as teams are willing to pay, nor am I debating that Montreal asking for two firsts and a top prospect for Paccioretti is beyond ridiculous.

What I am debating is Drouin has more value than Paccioretti.

He doesn’t

 

[72hockey guy]

Max Pacioretty is 30 and will require you to spend an exorbitant amount of money to keep on the Canadiens roster beyond this year. Drouin is 23 and is signed for the next half decade at a very reasonable clip. Even if Drouin were worth more in terms of a trade return--however minimal the difference in value--it still makes absolutely no sense for them long-term. I can't explain that any clearer.

I'm not a Habs fan, but looking at real life comparables on previous trade markets, a player like Pacioretty with his low cap hit is worth significantly more than you've given him credit for.

no Im looking at reality, he is not the player he was in 2011, you are trading him in 2018 and that is what other teams are trading for.

so I look at what other 1 year rentals who scored 37 points will get. do I think he might do better? yes I do but I dont base my trades on maybes. I base them on current values, salary, (term included) and years of control. and no I do not comsider what habs fams think he's worth, Like any GM with any intelligence I weigh those factors according to my teams individual value systems

as do all teams id imagine.

 

[72hockey guy]

I’m not debating a player is only worth as much as teams are willing to pay, nor am I debating that Montreal asking for two firsts and a top prospect for Paccioretti is beyond ridiculous.

What I am debating is Drouin has more value than Paccioretti.

He doesn’t

you cant possibly know if you havent actually shopped both and seen the offers but id venture a 23 year old on a 5 year contract at 5.5m coming off a 46 point season, has more value than a 29 year old rental coming off a 37 point season and likely expecting a 7-8M a year contract

take the names out of it and just crunch the data

 

[belair]

no Im looking at reality, he is not the player he was in 2011, you are trading him in 2018 and that is what other teams are trading for.

so I look at what other 1 year rentals who scored 37 points will get. do I think he might do better? yes I do but I dont base my trades on maybes. I base them on current values, salary, (term included) and years of control. and no I do not comsider what habs fams think he's worth, Like any GM with any intelligence I weigh those factors according to my teams individual value systems

as do all teams id imagine.

Well I'll argue you imagine incorrectly. 37 points at 29 years of age is what you define as an outlier. It may ultimately have a negative effect on his trade return, but that would be very minor to the team looking for the best available option to address the need of a goal-scoring winger.

That being said, I'm not really disputing the quality of return as mentioned in my previous posts. The Habs have replaced Pacioretty internally already. Their priorities this summer should be to add at least two quality centers, maximize whatever return they can get on Pacioretty and find a top four left shot defenseman.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Sign and trade him to Florida for their 1st.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Not sure where all the exorbitant amounts of money are coming from, he's 30 coming off a rough year, yes the term might hurt but the going rate for guys in his grouping is about $6.0MM per, most teams should be able to afford that

If he gets traded to a team with an actual #1C and you wait maybe it goes up if he has an incredible year but wingers just don't make the same money other than the handful of superstars