Bergeron or Ovechkin

[Crosbyfan]

Bergeron scored 39 points playing nearly a full season with a great team's top lines. I'll admit to being decidedly impressed with his play, and project him to be a quality top six player for Boston forever-ever, but ask yourself how many rookies would have outscored Patrice given the same opportunity.

I'd wager at least a dozen.

Ovechkin has a completely superior skill set, and the ability to play top line minutes immediately.

A dozen 18 year olds?

 

[Crosbyfan]

In the first post your thoughts were choppy and your train of thought seemed broken (not to mention your evaluation of prospects). Your last one however, was coherent, well thought out, and actually contained multiple paragraphs. Was your first post made in a drunken stupor/overtired state?

.

Thank-you, my writing is improving at a "Bergeron like pace"

 

[EroCaps]

A dozen 18 year olds?

Close to it. A dozen rookies, easily. Again, not to take anything from Patrice.

I meant to express how fortunate Bergeron has been compared to other young players, not to directly compare him to them.

I believe the question is "Bergeron or Ovechkin"?

 

[stardog]

WHY? Why do the numbers not add up. What makes Ovechkin have so much more potential? Why does this "potential" not show up in the numbers. Would Ovechkin have had 60+ points this season in the NHL? A season which would then be "no comparison" to Bergeron's 39 points? Or is the RSL just THAT much better than the NHL?

No, because they do not award second assists in the RSL, nor is it nearly as high scoring of a league as the NHL.
Plus, as stated, AO played less games than Bergeron.
Are you really trying to compare the two and what they will become?
That is just plain ridiculous.

Of course noone knows if Ovechkin is going to dominate the way many (myself included) thinks he will. Just as we don't know if Bergeron will continue to develop or if this was a fluke.

Honestly, do you REALLY think there is a comparison here? Would YOU take Bergeron over AO????

And I am sorry but 60 points does NOT compare, even remotley, with 39. That is a HUGE difference.

And it is interesting to see you throw out the potential in this argument.
Why does he have more potential? There are many threads that state the reasons why.
Are you trying to suggest that because he didnt score at a point per game clip, or dominate the RSL offensivley that his potential is not what it is hyped up to be?

Explain then Zherdev scoring a whopping four points in the RSL yet coming over to the NHL and putting up comparative numbers to that of Bergeron (and better ones on a PPG basis). I guess HIS potential also wasn't reflected by his numbers now were they?
Does this mean that Zherdev has less potential because he didnt score in the RSL (just like so many others)? Do you feel Bergeron would have scored more in that league than Ovechkin?

Seriously, I don't even get where there is a comparison between the two. AO is already a superior player to Bergeron and the distance between the two is only going to widen with time IMO.

 

[stardog]

The RSL is a much lower scoring league where young players are not relied on by coaches. For example, look up Alexei Kovalev's RSL stats. I think he had 2-3 points.

Take that a step further and look at almost ALL of the top scoring Russians in the NHL and what thier stats were in the RSL. I mean it is pretty much obvious to everybody and I thought it was a given that most informed hockey fans knew about this.

 

[stardog]

Why do you think a guy that was drafted in the second round last year and will very likely make the second line next year, at 19, have reached his peak? Do you put Malkin ahead in terms of perceived potential or as you see them NOW. Could Malkin have accomplished NOW what Bergeron just did?

EDIT: my point is that Bergeron NEVER had top line written close to him... until this year. He CANNOT improve at the pace he has this year. THAT would be silly. THAT would mean 100 points next year. NOT possible! He only had 70+ points in Junior last year. Ovechkin was playing in the RSL. Ovechkin had 15 points in 40 games against the toughest opposition outside of the NHL.

But then Bergeron went to the Bruins camp for some "training"....

No. What Bergeron accomplished, or where he was predicted to play has nothing to do with Ovechkin what so ever. That wasn't your point at all in starting the thread.
Where he was drafted also wasn't a part of the point. These are all things which have nothing to do with AO, and the point of the thread was comparing the two. Or, as the title says, who would you rather have.
Noone can take Bergerons accomplishments away, as they were remarkable, but the accomplishments of where he was drafted and what his expectations were are a total moot point if the topic is what you originally suggested or if we were to stay on topic with the threads title.

 

[stardog]

Nice try buddy! Bergeron played and produced as an 18 year old. Ovechkin is not even in the NHL. When will you jabronies learn. until he reaches the NHL and produces, he is no better then anyone, get it through your head. Plus there are no guarantees, Ovechkin could flop, don't say oh that won't happen, it has and it will continue to happen. Ovechkin is a prospect nothing more, Bergeron is a 18 year old producing in the NHL and even in the playoffs. Bergeron in a Cake walk until Ovechkin proves himself!

Come on. There is no GM in the entire NHL that would take Bergeron over Ovechkin.

And why would you hold it against him that he isnt in the NHL as if it were HIS fault??? That is simply ludicrous.

Finally, if you are going to say that AO COULD flop, then at least acknowledge the converse, which is that Bergeron COULD flop just as easily.

This is just a plain ridiculous argument IMO. Brian Holzinger played in the NHL also this year, so because of that we should take him "in a cake walk" over AO? Or over alot of promising studs in the AHL?

I understand your unwillingness to compare an unproven against a proven, but the argument is faulty. Given that you are basing it on a proven NHL commodity after one year of play, it isn't a sustained success formula.

With no longevity to base it on, it is almost as much of a supposition that Bergeron will flop or succeed as it is that Ao will do either as well.

 

[stardog]

While if I was given a choice of the two, I'd probably take Ovechkin, the arguement that Ovechkin hasn't proven anything at the NHL level while Bergeron has is very valid, IMO.

While it may SEEM valid, it is hardly a fair argument to AO. He wasn't given the chance, plain and simple.

I would take Ovechkin over Bergeron every day of the week.

 

[stardog]

So would you agree with many posters who feel Ovechkin will get significantly more than 60 points next season while Bergeron will get significantly less? That Bergeron's upside should top out at 60-65 points and Ovechkin should surpass that next year alone?

If this is true then I would have to agree that the two are not near the same level as prospects. But I don't buy it. If Bergeron doesn't get 50+ points in 82 games next season then I would say he will have seriously "plateaued" and if Ovechkin gets 70 + I will be very impressed. That wouldn't make Bergeron a "flash in the pan" though, would it?

I'll go out on a limb and say Bergeron gets more points next season.

Which also would be an unfair comparison. This would be his SECOND year in the league, while it is AO's first. That is a HUGE hurdle to overcome, and Bergeron did it quite well. Lets give AO the same opportunity and compare HIS rookie points total to that of Bergeron (and even then it wont be fair considering the teams the two played on).

 

[surixon]

Well looks like some people agree with your assesment on Bergeron being a very good youyng player as he is now been added to Canadas World Championship roster. So take that for what it's worth. He is now officially the 2nd youngest player to play for Canada at this event behind only Paul Karyia.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Well looks like some people agree with your assesment on Bergeron being a very good youyng player as he is now been added to Canadas World Championship roster.

I don't think many people have challenged the notion Bergeron is a very good young player, though.

 

[Mothra]

Nice try buddy! Bergeron played and produced as an 18 year old. Ovechkin is not even in the NHL. When will you jabronies learn. until he reaches the NHL and produces, he is no better then anyone, get it through your head. Plus there are no guarantees, Ovechkin could flop, don't say oh that won't happen, it has and it will continue to happen. Ovechkin is a prospect nothing more, Bergeron is a 18 year old producing in the NHL and even in the playoffs. Bergeron in a Cake walk until Ovechkin proves himself!

well.....if you are going to say Ovechkin may flop (which may happen)...you will have to consider the possibility that Bergeron may never have as good a season as he did this year.....that too happens

in other words...you cant have it both ways...

 

[Rabid Ranger]

It makes me uneasy too, I can't disagree with you on that.

That's my problem with threads like this. I don't deny Ovechkin's talent, or potential, but can we give him a season before we anoint him as a 100 point scorer at the NHL level?

 

[Mayhem]

While I agree with most that this comparison is not a valid one I strongly disagree with the assumption that Bergeron was handed this opportunity on a silver platter.

From the second Patrice entered training camp till the final horn sounded in game 7 he has earned ever second of playing time he has gotten. He entered camp as a virtual unknown and made his name through hard work and dedication. There was zero guarantee that even if after making the team out of camp that he would stick around. But he continued to work hard, play smart, and raise eyebrows and earned promotion from the 4th to the 3rd than eventually on to the second line. Even in the playoffs he continued to amaze I don't have the inclination to look up the quote but Sheldon Souray said something to the effect "It's hard to believe that he is 18 when he is out there playing like he has been doing it for years."

It is laughable the notion that given the chance a dozen 18 year old players would produce at the same rate that Patrice Bergeron has. Especially in light of the fact that he wasn't given anything.

 

[VanCanuck]

I don't think many people have challenged the notion Bergeron is a very good young player, though.

Patrrice Bergeron is a very talented player but Ovechkin is a very rare prospect like Crosby is or Gretzky was.

 

[SwOOsh*]

That is why you shouldn't compare players that are playing in the NHL too prospects, it's unfair to the players themselves.

It would be like me saying Semin > Crosby as Semin has produced at the NHL level. It just doesn't make sense as we all know that certain players have more potential then others.

 

[PB37]

Something I haven't seen mentioned is Bergeron's physical game...which was very surprising to see considering his age and size. There has been a countless number of times a player would take a run at Bergeron, only to end up flat on their backs with a surprised look on their face. Considering he's been living with the Lapointes, he's been taking a few lessons on balance,leverage and body checking from Marty. It's a shame they don't keep stats on hits anymore...I'm very curious as to Bergeron's final numbers in that category.

Does AO have a physical game? I've heard about his great offensive talents...not too much else about his other skills.

 

[Genghis Keon]

I wonder if this guy would have the same opinion if you compare Bergeron to his hero Crosby...

Maybe I'm giving Crosbyfan to much credit, but I think this thread may be intended to debunk the argument some Ovechkin fans use over why Ovechkin is better than Crosby (at least safer): Ovechkin plays against higher competition (RSL men vs. CHL boys). Using this same logic, these Ovechkin fans would have to say that Bergeron is better (at least safer) than Ovechkin, because, at the same age (Bergeron slightly less than 2 months older than Ovechkin), Bergeron plays against higher competition (NHL men vs RSL men). The fact that so many people in this thread choose Ovechkin over Bergeron because of skill and potential and whatnot, shows that the this argument based on the player's level of competition is not strong (at least most do not consider it strong), especially considering that both Crosby and Ovechkin are in the highest league they can be in--Ovechkin can't go any higher than the RSL without being drafted and it would have been unprecedented for Crosby to skip major junior to go overseas to play against pros. Thus the point of the thread is that when comparing players, basing your choice/relying heavily on what league they play in is weak--you choose the player, and, if anything, look at how the individual players match up against past players in their league and how well (or how poorly) these past players have done in the NHL. To simply compare the leagues players play in, call it a fact and presuppose that their league makes the player better or worse than another player, is ludicrous.

 

[Drake1588]

Both are playing in professional leagues against men, and in impressive fashion, so there isn't much of a discrepancy there. One can make the argument that Bergeron has proven himself in the NHL while Ovechkin has not. Perhaps... but it is not as though Ovechkin has failed to prove himself in the NHL. He has not yet had the chance.

Either way, ask anyone which of the two he or she would draft, and the answer would be Ovechkin every time. If Boston made a trade offer of Bergeron, they would be laughed at, while if McPhee offered up the #1 overall for Bergeron, O'Connell could not agree fast enough. That should be the simple answer right there.

The significant difference lies in the potential of the two, and while sometimes a bird in the hand applies, a tremendous difference in projected upside will overcome that factor.

Bergeron is most notable for the fact that he is contributing in a major way at such a young age. Ovechkin is notable for his skill set, which is believed superior to Bergeron in many offensive categories. I say this as a big Bergeron fan, but Ovechkin is a rare talent.

 

[BIGTRAIN*]

Maybe I'm giving Crosbyfan to much credit, but I think this thread may be intended to debunk the argument some Ovechkin fans use over why Ovechkin is better than Crosby (at least safer): Ovechkin plays against higher competition (RSL men vs. CHL boys). Using this same logic, these Ovechkin fans would have to say that Bergeron is better (at least safer) than Ovechkin, because, at the same age (Bergeron slightly less than 2 months older than Ovechkin), Bergeron plays against higher competition (NHL men vs RSL men). The fact that so many people in this thread choose Ovechkin over Bergeron because of skill and potential and whatnot, shows that the this argument based on the player's level of competition is not strong (at least most do not consider it strong), especially considering that both Crosby and Ovechkin are in the highest league they can be in--Ovechkin can't go any higher than the RSL without being drafted and it would have been unprecedented for Crosby to skip major junior to go overseas to play against pros. Thus the point of the thread is that when comparing players, basing your choice/relying heavily on what league they play in is weak--you choose the player, and, if anything, look at how the individual players match up against past players in their league and how well (or how poorly) these past players have done in the NHL. To simply compare the leagues players play in, call it a fact and presuppose that their league makes the player better or worse than another player, is ludicrous.

Crosby is a good player but because of the league he plays in is not as polished or as well rounded as Ovechkin is >> The more talented the people you play against makes you development go at a faster rate>> Ovechkin will have an immediate impact while Crosby will not and probly have to play in the minors>>

Ovechkin is also a power foward and Crosby is not >> Power fowards that can play on the top line are few and far between and most team look for them >> When you play men it is totally different type of game than when you play against boys of the same age >> Just because he does well against does not say what he does against bigger stronger faster men >>

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Patrrice Bergeron is a very talented player but Ovechkin is a very rare prospect like Crosby is or Gretzky was

If you call one per draft "rarity", maybe. Ovechkin is not the prospect some people make him out to be. There's a guy or two like this in almost every draft nowadays.

Gretzky?

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

To simply compare the leagues players play in, call it a fact and presuppose that their league makes the player better or worse than another player, is ludicrous.

I completely agreee with you. I hate lazy arguments based simply on leagues and points. They are junk. That said, not sure it's what the poster had in mind when he started the thread.

PS: I am on my knees, thanking the Lord that someone spelled it "ludicrous" and not the atrociously stupid "ludacris". Thank you lord. There is still hope

 

[King of Stankonia]

Does AO have a physical game? I've heard about his great offensive talents...not too much else about his other skills.

russianprospects.com has a great write up about Alexander Ovechkin.

 

[Genghis Keon]

Crosby is a good player but because of the league he plays in is not as polished or as well rounded as Ovechkin is >> The more talented the people you play against makes you development go at a faster rate>> Ovechkin will have an immediate impact while Crosby will not and probly have to play in the minors>>

Ovechkin is also a power foward and Crosby is not >> Power fowards that can play on the top line are few and far between and most team look for them >> When you play men it is totally different type of game than when you play against boys of the same age >> Just because he does well against does not say what he does against bigger stronger faster men >>

Before last years draft:

Bergeron is a good player but because of the league he plays in is not as polished or as well rounded as Perezhogin is >> The more talented the people you play against makes your development go at a faster rate>> Perezhogin will have an immediate impact while Bergeron will not and probably have to play in the minors>>

Note: Bergeron and Perezhogin are not exceptions that prove the rule. All the time you can find junior players who step in faster than Euro players who already have pro experience.

***********

I'm not saying Crosby is better than Ovechkin (or vice versa), but you can't assume everything based on what league they play in.

 

[Genghis Keon]

I completely agreee with you. I hate lazy arguments based simply on leagues and points. They are junk. That said, not sure it's what the poster had in mind when he started the thread.

Like I said, maybe I'm giving Crosbyfan too much credit; however, whether he intended it or not, his post and the subsequent replies do make the case. Hopefully, some of the people who are guilty of making these "lazy arguments" (be it about prospects or about anything) will see how weak the argument is when their opposition uses it against them. Then maybe they'll think deeper on why they hold their assertion and use stronger arguments in the future, which will improve the board as a whole.

PS: I am on my knees, thanking the Lord that someone spelled it "ludicrous" and not the atrociously stupid "ludacris". Thank you lord. There is still hope