Benning vs Gillis

[y2kcanucks]

Eh I'll normally give the GM the benefit of the doubt on the 1st round picks.

I'll give Benning credit for taking Boeser and Pettersson, I do think it's unfair to pin Virtanen and Juolevi on Benning but then say Boeser was a Brackett pick.

Fair enough.

 

[KingOfTheES]

Wow. This thread is a tire-fire.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Do GM's refer to the GM Textbook when it is their time in the draft to make the choice and when its the scouting departments turn?

"Hey Brackett! Step off my boy, not your turn. I got this." - Benning

This is dumb.

The GMs take all the information provided by the scouts and discuss what each thinks and the GM makes a call based on that. I’m sure sometimes all the scouts n GM agree on the BPA, sometimes not. He is familiar with the options, has at least watched some footage and makes the final call between them

Later rounds, they will have less and less influence on it, to th the point of entirely trusting a scout regarding a player they haven’t even seen before.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

This is dumb.

The GMs take all the information provided by the scouts and discuss what each thinks and the GM makes a call based on that. I’m sure sometimes all the scouts n GM agree on the BPA, sometimes not. He is familiar with the options, has at least watched some footage and makes the final call between them

Later rounds, they will have less and less influence on it, to th the point of entirely trusting a scout regarding a player they haven’t even seen before.

My new mantra

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I tabulated the average age of each team's top-10 scorers. I figured we would be around the middle somewhere. The results were actually .... surprising.

Team	PTS	T10Age
Columbus	77	23.8
Arizona	55	24.2
New Jersey	78	24.7
Florida	75	24.8
Tampa Bay	100	24.9
Philadelphia	81	25.2
Calgary	78	25.5
Colorado	80	25.6
NY Islanders	70	25.6
Nashville	98	25.7
Carolina	71	25.7
Winnipeg	91	25.9
Edmonton	64	25.9
Toronto	87	26.0
Vegas	93	26.1
Boston	94	26.3
Buffalo	56	26.4
Dallas	82	26.5
Chicago	68	26.5
Montréal	62	26.5
Ottawa	57	26.7
Anaheim	80	26.9
NY Rangers	67	27.3
Los Angeles	79	27.5
San Jose	81	27.6
Minnesota	85	27.8
Pittsburgh	84	27.8
Washington	83	27.9
Detroit	63	28.5
St. Louis	77	29.1
Vancouver	59	29.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

...yes, that's right. The very bottom.

Put in graphical form (forgive the crudity) :

love that visualization.

but why on earth would this be surprising? this team still relies on a broken down pair of sedins, who are the eighth oldest players in the league, to score. the last two summers we benning (gotta get used to not saying we) signed vanek, gagner, del zotto, and eriksson. and other than horvat and boeser we don't the team doesn't have any young players contributing offense because either benning ships trades them away for mid-20s age gap players or lets his coaches bury them so the team can "compete."

This thread in a nutshell:

are you kidding me? that city of the future is so snobby, with its infrastructure and what looks like a commitment to environmental self-sufficiency. i bet those jerks make their kids read books instead of letting them throw rocks at each other. i literally want to fight that photograph it thinks it's better than me.

Bertuzzi, lol. Bert scored more in his rookie year than Jake in the last 3 years combined.

i can think of one single example of a top pick that eventually turned into a good player whose first three years were in the same universe as how lost virtanen has mostly looked and how little he has contributed offensively.

Position: C • Shoots: Left
6-5, 220lb (196cm, 99kg)
Born: November 24, 1971 (Age: 46-108d) in Toronto, Ontario ca
Draft: Detroit, 1st round (3rd overall), 1990 NHL Entry

Season	Age	Tm	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-
1990-91	19	DET	58	3	12	15	-12
1991-92	20	DET	35	6	10	16	9
1992-93	21	DET	73	15	17	32	-6
1993-94	22	DET	78	31	42	73	34

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

he happens to be one of my least favourite players of all time.

 

[Strangelove]

LOL. I was using stats to prove that Sutter isn't a good player. But I'm glad you openly admit to banning members for using reality.

Sooooo ironic that you would use the word "reality" at the end of that.

You were banned for being so detached from reality!

FACT: You did use fancy stats to try to prove Sutter is a bad mentor.

And I think Chris banned you for something similar pre-Benning...

"sitting on the sidelines"

 

[arttk]

And followed up that 18 goal season with a 10 goal season then a 7 goal season. He was tracking so well and the Islanders so jubilated about it they gave him away for a vet who's best days were well behind him

Tracking well, when was the last time Virtanen tracked well? He scored 19 points in almost a full season down in the AHL last season in his what D+3/4 season?

Todd scored 7 goals in one season? Lol, did you miss the part where he scored 6 goals in Vancouver and 7 goals for NYI in the year he was traded?
Todd went from 30ish points to 20ish then back to 30ish and then 40pt pace in his injured season and then up to 50 and then up and up.

If you are going to make an argument, educate yourself first.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

take these videos how you will





love you trev

 

[arttk]

love that visualization.

but why on earth would this be surprising? this team still relies on a broken down pair of sedins, who are the eighth oldest players in the league, to score. the last two summers we benning (gotta get used to not saying we) signed vanek, gagner, del zotto, and eriksson. and other than horvat and boeser we don't have any young players contributing offense because either benning ships trades them away for mid-20s age gap players or lets his coaches bury them so the team can "compete."




are you kidding me? that city of the future is so snobby, with its infrastructure and what looks like a commitment to environmental self-sufficiency. i bet those jerks make their kids read books instead of letting them throw rocks at each other. i literally want to fight that photograph it thinks it's better than me.




i can think of one single example of a top pick that eventually turned into a good player whose first three years were in the same universe as how lost virtanen has mostly looked and how little he has contributed offensively.

Position: C • Shoots: Left
6-5, 220lb (196cm, 99kg)
Born: November 24, 1971 (Age: 46-108d) in Toronto, Ontario ca
Draft: Detroit, 1st round (3rd overall), 1990 NHL Entry

Season	Age	Tm	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-
1990-91	19	DET	58	3	12	15	-12
1991-92	20	DET	35	6	10	16	9
1992-93	21	DET	73	15	17	32	-6
1993-94	22	DET	78	31	42	73	34

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

he happens to be one of my least favourite players of all time.

Well if you look at Primeau's production, he actually went PPG in the AHL and the 2nd 16pts in 35 games is still a much much much better pace than Virtanen even though it is a completely different era.

 

[Melvin]

love that visualization.

but why on earth would this be surprising? this team still relies on a broken down pair of sedins, who are the eighth oldest players in the league, to score. the last two summers we benning (gotta get used to not saying we) signed vanek, gagner, del zotto, and eriksson. and other than horvat and boeser we don't have any young players contributing offense because either benning ships trades them away for mid-20s age gap players or lets his coaches bury them so the team can "compete."

I didn't expect us to be dead last. I figured at least the wings or the sharks would be behind us, maybe a couple others.

I underestimated how many teams have 19 and 20 year olds making significant contributions.

I also didn't want anyone to think I purposefully chose a methodology that would rank us last. I rather chose one that was simple and was surprised we were last.

Imagine if the Sedins are retained. Yikes.

are you kidding me? that city of the future is so snobby, with its infrastructure and what looks like a commitment to environmental self-sufficiency. i bet those jerks make their kids read books instead of letting them throw rocks at each other. i literally want to fight that photograph it thinks it's better than me.




i can think of one single example of a top pick that eventually turned into a good player whose first three years were in the same universe as how lost virtanen has mostly looked and how little he has contributed offensively.

Position: C • Shoots: Left
6-5, 220lb (196cm, 99kg)
Born: November 24, 1971 (Age: 46-108d) in Toronto, Ontario ca
Draft: Detroit, 1st round (3rd overall), 1990 NHL Entry

Season	Age	Tm	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-
1990-91	19	DET	58	3	12	15	-12
1991-92	20	DET	35	6	10	16	9
1992-93	21	DET	73	15	17	32	-6
1993-94	22	DET	78	31	42	73	34

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

he happens to be one of my least favourite players of all time.

Heh.

I think we should all be preparing for Virtanen to be shipped out of town this off season. We are seeing the same kind of pr snubs we saw with McCann, where Jake isn't mentioned in videos and quotes promoting our young talent. I am preparing for a kassian-Prust style mentorship trade.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

Tracking well, when was the last time Virtanen tracked well? He scored 19 points in almost a full season down in the AHL last season in his what D+3/4 season?

Todd scored 7 goals in one season? Lol, did you miss the part where he scored 6 goals in Vancouver and 7 goals for NYI in the year he was traded?
Todd went from 30ish points to 20ish then back to 30ish and then 40pt pace in his injured season and then up to 50 and then up and up.

If you are going to make an argument, educate yourself first.

Hey! I respect that your opinion on Jake is set in stone. Can we circle back to this in a couple years after Jake has fully developed? If I am being patient with his development and you not, this rodeo we are in is going to be one big waste of time

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think we should all be preparing for Virtanen to be shipped out of town this off season. We are seeing the same kind of pr snubs we saw with McCann, where Jake isn't mentioned in videos and quotes promoting our young talent. I am preparing for a kassian-Prust style mentorship trade.

Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
	Brendan Leipsic	L	68	49	71	120	103	55	21	10	14	24	41	MAN: Winnipeg	18
	Nicolas Petan	C	71	46	74	120	43	68	21	9	19	28	16	BC: Delta	17
	Ty Rattie	R	62	48	62	110	27	56	21	20	16	36	17	ALTA: Calgary	19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[arttk]

Hey! I respect that your opinion on Jake is set in stone. Can we circle back to this in a couple years after Jake has fully developed? If I am being patient with his development and you not, this rodeo we are in is going to be one big waste of time

Can you elaborate on the Todd Bertuzzi scoring 7 goals in a season thing?
Care to elaborate how Todd's points total "dropped" and how Jake is similar to that?

Honestly, just be a f***ing man and admit you are wrong and you are a f***ing hyprocrite. At least people will respect you for owning up.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

Can you elaborate on the Todd Bertuzzi scoring 7 goals in a season thing?

A mistake on my part, not my scouting department

You do realize that Todd Bertuzzi came with big question marks, ergo, why he was given up on early by the Isles.

You are either a young whipper snapper and too young to remember this about Todds well known lazy work habits and bad attitude when coming out of the draft or just simply relying on selective memory to suit the cause (the agenda)

 

[arttk]

A mistake on my part, not my scouting department

You do realize that Todd Bertuzzi came with big question marks, ergo, why he was given up on early by the Isles.

You are either a young whipper snapper and too young to remember this about Todds well known lazy work habits and bad attitude when coming out of the draft or just simply relying on selective memory to suit the cause (the agenda)

The Isles were a trainwreck in the 90's. They traded away Pierre Turgeon, Malakhov, Bertuzzi, McCabe, Berard, Palffy, Luongo, Jokinen, 2nd overall pick, Chara for various reasons. They had no patience for anyone.

Yeah Bert was lazy, I am not that young and I watched all the games back then, but he also had moment of absolute brillance. We see flashes of skill from Virtanen with almost no results. That's the thing, Bert when he was on, could do anything. Virtanen when he is on looks like Kreider without the finish. Ever since his draft season, his point production has been disappointing consistently. Hoping for him to breakout is based on hope and nothing more.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I didn't expect us to be dead last. I figured at least the wings or the sharks would be behind us, maybe a couple others.

I underestimated how many teams have 19 and 20 year olds making significant contributions.

I also didn't want anyone to think I purposefully chose a methodology that would rank us last. I rather chose one that was simple and was surprised we were last.

Imagine if the Sedins are retained. Yikes.



Heh.

I think we should all be preparing for Virtanen to be shipped out of town this off season. We are seeing the same kind of pr snubs we saw with McCann, where Jake isn't mentioned in videos and quotes promoting our young talent. I am preparing for a kassian-Prust style mentorship trade.

Why would they ship out JV.?..The guy is obviously turning a corner with his play and his conditioning...I would say they are leaving him out of the PR thing so he can continue his development 'under the radar',or without the added pressure (my .02 cents).

Other than the fact they were drafted the same year,I don't see a correlation between McCann and JV.

 

[CanaFan]

The Isles were a trainwreck in the 90's. They traded away Pierre Turgeon, Malakhov, Bertuzzi, McCabe, Berard, Palffy, Luongo, Jokinen, 2nd overall pick, Chara for various reasons. They had no patience for anyone.

Yeah Bert was lazy, I am not that young and I watched all the games back then, but he also had moment of absolute brillance. We see flashes of skill from Virtanen with almost no results. That's the thing, Bert when he was on, could do anything. Virtanen when he is on looks like Kreider without the finish. Ever since his draft season, his point production has been disappointing consistently. Hoping for him to breakout is based on hope and nothing more.


I don't care for you so no.

Agree with your takes on Bertuzzi. He did struggle with his intensity and consistency early on but even when we first acquired him you saw flashes of just brilliant skill. Not enough but it showed you it was there. I don’t see that with Jake. There’s the odd drive to the net but that’s about his only “wow” dimension. His actual skill level - handling the puck, seeing plays - just isn’t very high and certainly nowhere near what Bertuzzi flashed even very early on.

A big part of why the Isle’s let him go was some weird insistence on their part that he pattern his game after Clarke Gillies. IIRC they even brought Gillies in to have private talks and on ice practices with Todd in his first couple of years. They wanted a hitting, fighting machine and Todd wanted to float and dangle like he did in jr. The call for patience certainly was applicable in Todd’s case but mainly because he had massive skill but was being coached to be a hitter and fighter. With Jake I don’t see massive skill outside of his skating and is probably rightly being coached to be a middle 6 forechecker / hitter because the offensive skill just isn’t high enough to put him in a scorers role.

 

[ChefBoiRD]

The Isles were a trainwreck in the 90's. They traded away Pierre Turgeon, Malakhov, Bertuzzi, McCabe, Berard, Palffy, Luongo, Jokinen, 2nd overall pick, Chara for various reasons. They had no patience for anyone.

Yeah Bert was lazy, I am not that young and I watched all the games back then, but he also had moment of absolute brillance. We see flashes of skill from Virtanen with almost no results. That's the thing, Bert when he was on, could do anything. Virtanen when he is on looks like Kreider without the finish. Ever since his draft season, his point production has been disappointing consistently. Hoping for him to breakout is based on hope and nothing more.


I don't care for you so no.

Shucks

So you agree that Bertuzzis road to his glory was a bumpy one in the beginning?

I don't assume that Virtanen and him will be similar power forwards, far from it. Power forward yes but different. I'm just saying that power forwards can take a little longer development. I'm willing to give Jake that window. Your opinion is set so let's just agree to disagree, it's kinda pointless to do spar over something we don't share the same opinion on.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Why would they ship out JV.?..The guy is obviously turning a corner with his play and his conditioning...

organizational strategy of buying high and selling low, of course. he turns any farther 'round that corner and they might have to take something of value back.

 

[RandV]

A big part of why the Isle’s let him go was some weird insistence on their part that he pattern his game after Clarke Gillies. IIRC they even brought Gillies in to have private talks and on ice practices with Todd in his first couple of years. They wanted a hitting, fighting machine and Todd wanted to float and dangle like he did in jr. The call for patience certainly was applicable in Todd’s case but mainly because he had massive skill but was being coached to be a hitter and fighter. With Jake I don’t see massive skill outside of his skating and is probably rightly being coached to be a middle 6 forechecker / hitter because the offensive skill just isn’t high enough to put him in a scorers role.

Hmm that sounds strangely familiar...

 

[CanaFan]

Hmm that sounds strangely familiar...

Ya the organizational incompetence 100%. The player, not so much.

 

[Melvin]

Honestly 17 points is nothing to sneeze at for a guy with his ice time and zero PP time.

Maybe the weirdest thing about this season is that we are not doing more to promote him as a bright spot in a bleak year similar to what we did with Kassian and Jensen at the end of the Torts season.

His season has been a success to me but I feel like he's on the way out.

 

[RandV]

Sooooo ironic that you would use the word "reality" at the end of that.

You were banned for being so detached from reality!

FACT: You did use fancy stats to try to prove Sutter is a bad mentor.

And I think Chris banned you for something similar pre-Benning...

"sitting on the sidelines"

I don't really know what that was all about, but it does bring up a good point. Fans behind Benning bought the idea that the Sutter move was a good deal at the time. Then they were able to keep that opinion up for a good while because that first season Sutter only got in roughly 20 games before being injured for the season, where he got a lot of top line minutes with the Sedins and PP time and was able to put up a .5 PPG.

But now with a broader time perspective on him, the original points against him stand. He's not a bad player, but...

- he wasn't a 2nd line center simply stuck behind Crosby and Malkin
- he's not worth anywhere near the extension he got before even playing a game for us
- he wasn't worth Bonino straight up, especially considering the contracts, let alone adding

He's a 30-35 point bottom six player, no more valuable to the Canucks than guys like Higgins or Hansen were, and whose use to the team probably could have been filled simply by keeping Brad Richardson.

 

[PG Canuck]

We done here.