Belmont Park Islanders Arena Project - Upd 6/7 Construction ongoing, sched open for 2021-22 season

gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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But the message was clear almost 60 years ago - who cares what the outside looks if the inside works.

Meanwhile, the Dolan's still have the ticking time bomb of 2024 to deal with. Penn Station HAS to be rebuilt and to do so MSG needs to be relocated. :dunno:

Wasn't MSG just renovated recently for a billion or so dollars and now they got to spend another couple billion to build it again somewhere else? Is there even land for it?
 

Uberpecker

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
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But the message was clear almost 60 years ago - who cares what the outside looks if the inside works.

Meanwhile, the Dolan's still have the ticking time bomb of 2024 to deal with. Penn Station HAS to be rebuilt and to do so MSG needs to be relocated. :dunno:
From a strictly sports fan-centered pov that might be understandable. It's also a problematic, though. The outside of a building is the inside of public space.
 

Fenway

HF Bookie and Bruins Historian
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Wasn't MSG just renovated recently for a billion or so dollars and now they got to spend another couple billion to build it again somewhere else? Is there even land for it?

I *think* the post office next door is still in play but otherwise, all that vacant land in what is now Hudson Yards has been claimed.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
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MSG isn’t going anywhere to make way for a new Penn Station. Even in 2024.

Unless the city finds an equal site for them to go to... which doesn’t exist. AND they’d have to pay the Dolans billions on top of even that. It’s just not realistic to think it’s possible.

Stranger things have happened though.
 

oknazevad

Registered User
Dec 12, 2018
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MSG was given only a 10-year extension to their payment-in-lieu-of-taxes and land use permits in 2014, as the city and state plainly want to reconstruct Penn Station as it's frankly inadequate. Meanwhile they pressed ahead with a major reconstruction of the seating bowl and concourses despite the looming deadline. Was that smart? Well, they're gambling that they'll get another extension despite the near-universal recognition that Penn Station is vastly more important than MSG ever will be.
 

Fenway

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MSG isn’t going anywhere to make way for a new Penn Station. Even in 2024.

Unless the city finds an equal site for them to go to... which doesn’t exist. AND they’d have to pay the Dolans billions on top of even that. It’s just not realistic to think it’s possible.

Stranger things have happened though.

MSG was given only a 10-year extension to their payment-in-lieu-of-taxes and land use permits in 2014, as the city and state plainly want to reconstruct Penn Station as it's frankly inadequate. Meanwhile they pressed ahead with a major reconstruction of the seating bowl and concourses despite the looming deadline. Was that smart? Well, they're gambling that they'll get another extension despite the near-universal recognition that Penn Station is vastly more important than MSG ever will be.

Problem is any deal with Dolan has to be done now as you can't wait for the deadline.

We are dealing with the Feds (Amtrak) that own Penn Station, New York State that owns the LIRR, New Jersey that owns NJ Transit and the City of New York.

Penn Station is by far the priority.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
28,820
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Charlotte, NC
MSG was given only a 10-year extension to their payment-in-lieu-of-taxes and land use permits in 2014, as the city and state plainly want to reconstruct Penn Station as it's frankly inadequate. Meanwhile they pressed ahead with a major reconstruction of the seating bowl and concourses despite the looming deadline. Was that smart? Well, they're gambling that they'll get another extension despite the near-universal recognition that Penn Station is vastly more important than MSG ever will be.

MSG owns the ground level property AND the air rights above Penn Station. The city can do anything they want with the permits and taxes. The only way for them to really get them out of there is either by buying the property, which the Dolans wouldn’t sell without a viable place to move, or through eminent domain, which would require the city providing them with equal real estate as well as paying them market value for the property itself. In either case, the whole thing would cost NYC billions (probably more like tens of billions) to make happen... and that’s not even including rebuilding Penn Station itself!

You can’t blame the city for trying to use whatever leverage it has, but they’re in a REALLY weak position. The city can revoke the permits and do away with the tax exemption. Meanwhile, the teams will find somewhere else to play. The exemption requires that the teams play their home games at MSG, which is why the outdoor games in NYC have always had the Rangers as the “away” team. No exemption, no reason to keep from playing elsewhere. The ownership would be perfectly within its rights to let the site lie “fallow” if the city doesn’t want to compensate them properly in terms of money, real estate and likely new arena construction costs as well.

Frankly, it’s hard to see any of it happening without a new generation of politicians who has forgiven or forgotten or never even knew about how the Dolans sabotaged the Jets West Side stadium.
 

Fenway

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MSG owns the ground level property AND the air rights above Penn Station. The city can do anything they want with the permits and taxes. The only way for them to really get them out of there is either by buying the property, which the Dolans wouldn’t sell without a viable place to move, or through eminent domain, which would require the city providing them with equal real estate as well as paying them market value for the property itself. In either case, the whole thing would cost NYC billions (probably more like tens of billions) to make happen... and that’s not even including rebuilding Penn Station itself!

You can’t blame the city for trying to use whatever leverage it has, but they’re in a REALLY weak position. The city can revoke the permits and do away with the tax exemption. Meanwhile, the teams will find somewhere else to play. The exemption requires that the teams play their home games at MSG, which is why the outdoor games in NYC have always had the Rangers as the “away” team. No exemption, no reason to keep from playing elsewhere. The ownership would be perfectly within its rights to let the site lie “fallow” if the city doesn’t want to compensate them properly in terms of money, real estate and likely new arena construction costs as well.

Frankly, it’s hard to see any of it happening without a new generation of politicians who has forgiven or forgotten or never even knew about how the Dolans sabotaged the Jets West Side stadium.

BUT does Dolan actually control street level? Vornado Reality Trust owns Penn Plaza and they think they own the air rights.

Penn Station is a catastrophe waiting to happen - only 2 tracks to New Jersey and 4 tracks to Queens handle everything. 60 years ago when MSG was planned it was assumed railroads were being phased out. Today the station is the busiest it has ever been.

upload_2019-8-11_22-57-46.png
 

Thrasymachus

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Jul 1, 2018
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Holy ****, this thing looks awful. What is it with this laughable trend in the US to make new sports stadia look like they were built a hundred years ago.
Also, I don't really get why they couldn't just redevelop the Collosseum a little bigger and just stay there. Doesn't seem to make sense to me economically.
Funny, in my opinion MORE buildings should have a retro look. Modern buildings are sterile and soulless. Too much glass and stainless steel.
 

Thrasymachus

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Jul 1, 2018
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But the message was clear almost 60 years ago - who cares what the outside looks if the inside works.

Meanwhile, the Dolan's still have the ticking time bomb of 2024 to deal with. Penn Station HAS to be rebuilt and to do so MSG needs to be relocated. :dunno:
Architecture's push for functionalism over aesthetics is one of the many errors of the 21st century. Too many drab, uniform grey buildings are terrible. Appearances are important. Aesthetically pleasing locales revitalize the human spirit.
 

Uberpecker

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Mar 3, 2011
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Interesting. I both agree and disagree with you.
Funny, in my opinion MORE buildings should have a retro look. Modern buildings are sterile and soulless. Too much glass and stainless steel.
Modernism is much more diverse than most people think. Also, elegance and soulfulness are not intrinsically tied to architectural style or era per se. They depend on skill (by the architects) and volition (by developers, owners, communities...). Here are two post-war modernist examples:
1.
7eede2600e901776f1c6be34cd89f53b.jpg

2.
iu

If you're using "modern" in the sense of recent or contemporary, the point still stands:
3.
iu

Architecture's push for functionalism over aesthetics is one of the many errors of the 21st century. Too many drab, uniform grey buildings are terrible. Appearances are important. Aesthetically pleasing locales revitalize the human spirit.
The hegemony of function over beauty in architecture - aspects that don't have to be at odds with each other per se - is not unique to the 21st century, in fact its heyday is usually associated with the post-war 20th century and very much connected to the economical boom years on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

Seemingly a paradox, this period also saw the realization of one of the most beautiful sports complexes in human history, the Munich Olympic Parc:
4.
1920px-Blick_vom_Olympiaberg_auf_das_Olympiastadion.jpg


Still, shortly thereafter in the West, the prevalent disregard for beauty or "soul" even provoked the advent of Postmodernism with its playful and often ironic use of archaic elements and historic symbolism (but also its own aesthetic problems, which would be another story).

Nowadays things are even more complex, but to make my point (and wrap this up):

Generally speaking, one cannot create beautiful buildings and a beautiful environment for the general public if one doesn't believe in public space.

Public space, however, is inherently non-commercial or it wouldn't be public. That doesn't mean it can't be beneficial to business and commerce, but in itself it has to be non-profit.

When it comes to soulless architecture, the real culprit is therefore a disregard for public space. And present day utilitarian turbo capitalism plays a big unholy role in this, especially in the US.
"Retro" architecture doesn't really address this problem, it just gives you a sedative in the form of a generic but fake "good old times"-feeling. It is a kind of architectural Prozac.

What's more, our ways of using, moving through and communicating in public space have a big impact on how we perceive it and therefore how it's gonna look like. If we move through it mostly in our cars or with our eyes on the cellphone-screen, it's no wonder that our public space is essentially a giant parking lot seamed with bland facades and attention-grabbing billboards.

EDIT: Photo references:
1. Planalto Palace, Brasilia, Brazil, 1958-60 architect: Oscar Niemeyer.
This is not a sports facility but the presidential palace of Brazil. Dimensions and proportions are similar to an arena, though, which is why I chose this example.
2. Ingalls ice rink, Yale university, New Haven, CT, 1953-58; architect: Eero Saarinen
3. New Bordeaux stadium, Bordeaux, France, 2012-2015; architects: Herzog & de Meuron
4. Olympic Parc, Munich, Germany, 1968-72; architects: Behnisch & Partners with Frei Otto (structural engineer) and others.
 
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DarkHorse2

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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1. Understood and I'm in favor of the Isles getting a good arena. But this is some absolutely lousy architecture and no reasonable way to "complement" an old ensemble. Just lazy, ****ty design.
2. I'm aware of that and have casually followed the development ever since the lighthouse project. Still it seems unreasonable to me to have two arenas in such close vicinity, one redevelopped, one new and only one team.

I would not be shocked if the Islanders end up moving the SoundTigers into the Coliseum, once Belmont is done. As much as I enjoy going to Bridgeport and would feel bad for the fans there, to have both teams on Long Island, offering younger fans a lower-cost entry point would be pretty great. Plus, the Nets G-League team plays at the Coliseum, and it would not be surprising if the Liberty end up playing some games there as well.
 
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nyscene

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Jul 26, 2006
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It's odd that the whole arena will be built and usable before the new LIRR station is ready to run trains in both directions.
Different people building-the new station has to be built by LIRR and follow their specs.

You’ll be able to get anywhere after the game-East would leave from Elmont station (half done at that point) west from Belmont park station.
 

None Shall Pass

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Jul 7, 2007
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Brooklyn
Different people building-the new station has to be built by LIRR and follow their specs.

You’ll be able to get anywhere after the game-East would leave from Elmont station (half done at that point) west from Belmont park station.

I get all that, but four years to build a fully-operational regional train station - which, let's be honest, is two long concrete platforms with some awnings, a few elevators and a parking lot, if my experience with all the NY/NJ regional railroads is any indication - while someone a mile away will build an arena that seats 19,000 people in half as much time, is a hilarious indictment of whatever process this is.

Part of me hopes Cuomo will micromanage this like he is micromanaging the L train "shutdown".
 

nyscene

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Jul 26, 2006
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I get all that, but four years to build a fully-operational regional train station - which, let's be honest, is two long concrete platforms with some awnings, a few elevators and a parking lot, if my experience with all the NY/NJ regional railroads is any indication - while someone a mile away will build an arena that seats 19,000 people in half as much time, is a hilarious indictment of whatever process this is.

Part of me hopes Cuomo will micromanage this like he is micromanaging the L train "shutdown".
There’s more. There’s a boiler room, communications requirements, elevators, escalators, the overpass, the fact that this borders the CIP. I’ve been on some third track station jobs-they’re small, but more complicated than just pouring some slabs.
 
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Hoser

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Aug 7, 2005
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I breezed through this thread to get up to speed, but I didn't see this point addressed directly: who pays for the arena? Apologies for asking something that has likely been discussed to death before but this discussion really goes back at least a couple years, and it's a little muddled to someone like myself who admittedly wasn't following along very closely.

Sources I've found in a cursory google search say that the arena is being financed by a three-way partnership between the Islanders' owners, the Wilpon family's (Mets' owners) development corporation, and another development corp (Oak View). Is this still the case? I'm a little confused by whom the Empire State Development and the Franchise Oversight Board are, what their duties are, what financial involvement they have, etc.
 

nyscene

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Jul 26, 2006
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I breezed through this thread to get up to speed, but I didn't see this point addressed directly: who pays for the arena? Apologies for asking something that has likely been discussed to death before but this discussion really goes back at least a couple years, and it's a little muddled to someone like myself who admittedly wasn't following along very closely.

Sources I've found in a cursory google search say that the arena is being financed by a three-way partnership between the Islanders' owners, the Wilpon family's (Mets' owners) development corporation, and another development corp (Oak View). Is this still the case? I'm a little confused by whom the Empire State Development and the Franchise Oversight Board are, what their duties are, what financial involvement they have, etc.
Yes. Privately funded by a consortium consisting of those three groups.
ESD is Empire State development, which can issue grants and deals with state contracts and work on state lands. They generally try to drive development (read:job creation) in the state. FOB is franchise oversight board, which oversees NYRA (New York Racing Authority) who used to own the Belmont site until they handed over the deed in bankruptcy proceedings with NY State. They had to okay the signing over of the land to ESD to lease to the isles group for the arena.
 
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patnyrnyg

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Sep 16, 2004
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MSG was given only a 10-year extension to their payment-in-lieu-of-taxes and land use permits in 2014, as the city and state plainly want to reconstruct Penn Station as it's frankly inadequate. Meanwhile they pressed ahead with a major reconstruction of the seating bowl and concourses despite the looming deadline. Was that smart? Well, they're gambling that they'll get another extension despite the near-universal recognition that Penn Station is vastly more important than MSG ever will be.
1) the 10-year extension happened after the renovation.

2) Dolan was willing to convert the Farley building (post office across the street) but the city debated and debated. Dolan lost his patience and renovated.

3) IF the city tries to revoke or not extend their permits, Dolan's lawyers will get injuctions to allow them to continue operating while everyone sues each other. It will get tied up in court for years.
 

Hoser

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Aug 7, 2005
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Yes. Privately funded by a consortium consisting of those three groups.
ESD is Empire State development, which can issue grants and deals with state contracts and work on state lands. They generally try to drive development (read:job creation) in the state. FOB is franchise oversight board, which oversees NYRA (New York Racing Authority) who used to own the Belmont site until they handed over the deed in bankruptcy proceedings with NY State. They had to okay the signing over of the land to ESD to lease to the isles group for the arena.

So FOB oversees NYRA, NYRA used to own the land but gave the land up to ESD because the racetrack went bankrupt (?); ESD is the state development agency, who had to get the okay from the FOB before they could lease the land to the Isles-Mets-Oak View triumvirate. Isles-Mets-Oak View will build the facility with their own money, but won't own the land: they will have to lease the land from ESD, for ____ years @ $_____? Am I right so far?
 

nyscene

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Jul 26, 2006
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So FOB oversees NYRA, NYRA used to own the land but gave the land up to ESD because the racetrack went bankrupt (?); ESD is the state development agency, who had to get the okay from the FOB before they could lease the land to the Isles-Mets-Oak View triumvirate. Isles-Mets-Oak View will build the facility with their own money, but won't own the land: they will have to lease the land from ESD, for ____ years @ $_____? Am I right so far?
Yup
 
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gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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1) the 10-year extension happened after the renovation.

2) Dolan was willing to convert the Farley building (post office across the street) but the city debated and debated. Dolan lost his patience and renovated.

3) IF the city tries to revoke or not extend their permits, Dolan's lawyers will get injuctions to allow them to continue operating while everyone sues each other. It will get tied up in court for years.

He can file environmental lawsuits against it. The issue would have to be mitigated and it'll be very very expensive mitigation.
 

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