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B-Sens Belleville 2019-2020 Season Part 3

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JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Larionov said:
Anderson will be on the first flight to Florida after the last game. That is where his family is and that is where they will stay. He may come here for the occasional alumni function, etc., but that will be that.

Brannstrom's injury is a real kick in the shorts. He needs to come back and have a good playoff to redeem his season. Otherwise, you have to consider this year to be a massive disappointment for his development. He really failed to take the next step, and never has looked like the dominant force in generating offense that a young EK was. He's only 20, adjusting to North America, defencemen take longer, blah blah blah, but the excitement of acquiring him has long since worn off...
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Why do people get so caught up in comparing Brannstrom to Karlsson?

Karlsson is a two time Norris trophy winner and imo up until injury knocked him down a bit was on his way to a generational career

Brannstrom was acquired for Mark Stone. Stone is a good player. But he's not generational. He's not hall of fame calibre. He's not even an elite offensive player. Stone's going to have a 5 year run as one of the best two way players in the game. That's his peak. Is the peak worth holding Brannstrom to a Karlsson standard?
 
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Larionov

Larionov

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JD1 said:
Why do people get so caught up in comparing Brannstrom to Karlsson?

Karlsson is a two time Norris trophy winner and imo up until injury knocked him down a bit was on his way to a generational career

Brannstrom was acquired for Mark Stone. Stone is a good player. But he's not generational. He's not hall of fame calibre. He's not even an elie offensive player. Stone's going to have a 5 year run as one of the best two way players in the game. That's his peak. Is the peak worth holding Brannstrom to a Karlsson standard?
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Well, for one, they were drafted at the same spot, 15th overall, in their respective drafts, are both under six feet, and from the same country. The comparisons are inevitable. They are also both smaller defencemen built for today's NHL who rely who on skill, speed and vision to be effective. Brannstrom was also ranked as one of the best prospects outside the NHL when we traded for him, so he was clearly expected by many to be an elite NHL defenceman for years to come. Hence Dorion's "proudest day" comment. Many felt that Vegas, as we did with Karlsson then Chabot, got themselves a mid-first round steal who would actually perform more like a top five pick. So yes, my expectations for Brannstrom were sky high, and I expected him to come in this year and be in the conversation for the Calder. Is that unfair? Not for a guy with his pre-billing, and not for a guy who got traded for Mark Stone.

As for Mark Stone, he is a point a game player who is consistently one of the league leaders in takeaways, and consistently a puck possession monster, with a Corsi consistently in the high 50s throughout his career. Guys who play defence like that and who can also score are basically unicorns - you just can't find them. If and when you finally do find one you keep them forever, as Boston has with Bergeron. Not only did we find and develop one, we decided to trade him away, and in his prime no less. Stone demonstrated how elite he was at the Worlds a few years ago, when he won MVP in a tournament held on international ice. (So much for the "Stone can't skate" narrative.) He should have won a few Selkes by now if the voters hadn't decided in recent years that you need to be a centre in order to qualify. On every short list for Team Canada for 2022 in Bejing (if we go), he's on it. He's one of the rare guys actually earning his big ticket contract right now, and on top of all of that he is a leader on and off the ice. And we traded him. So yes, the guy we got in exchange for him is going to be held to a tough standard. And if Brannstrom ends up being a great top four defenceman in this league who roughly equals Stone in value, I will happily come here, grab a knife and fork, and eat my plate of crow, because all I have ever wanted is to see the Ottawa Senators win the Cup some time before I die...
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Larionov said:
Well, for one, they were drafted at the same spot, 15th overall, in their respective drafts, are both under six feet, and from the same country. The comparisons are inevitable. They are also both smaller defencemen built for today's NHL who rely who on skill, speed and vision to be effective. Brannstrom was also ranked as one of the best prospects outside the NHL when we traded for him, so he was clearly expected by many to be an elite NHL defenceman for years to come. Hence Dorion's "proudest day" comment. Many felt that Vegas, as we did with Karlsson then Chabot, got themselves a mid-first round steal who would actually perform more like a top five pick. So yes, my expectations for Brannstrom were sky high, and I expected him to come in this year and be in the conversation for the Calder. Is that unfair? Not for a guy with his pre-billing, and not for a guy who got traded for Mark Stone.

As for Mark Stone, he is a point a game player who is consistently one of the league leaders in takeaways, and consistently a puck possession monster, with a Corsi consistentlin the high 50s throughout his career. Guys who play defence like that and who can also score are basically unicorns - you just can't find them. If and when you finally do find one you keep them forever, as Boston has with Bergeron. Not only did we find and develop one, we decided to trade him away, and in his prime no less. Stone demonstrated how elite he was at the Worlds a few years ago, when he won MVP in a tournament held on international ice. (So much for the "Stone can't skate" narrative.) He should have won a few Selkes by now if the voters hadn't decided in recent years that you need to be a centre in order to qualify. On every short list for Team Canada for 2022 in Bejing (if we go), he's on it. He's one of the rare guys actually earning his big ticket contract right now, and on top of all of that he is a leader on and off the ice. And we traded him. So yes, the guy we got in exchange for him is going to be held to a tough standard. And if Brannstrom ends up being a great top four defenceman in this league who roughly equals Stone in value, I will happily come here, grab a knife and fork, and eat my plate of crow, because all I have ever wanted is to see the Ottawa Senators win the Cup some time before I die...
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So a couple of things

I get the draft slot, Swedish comparison. Similar style. That's obvious. But the comparison should end there. Karlsson probably should have 4 norris trophies and in my view two freak injuries probably denied the hockey world of watching someone have a career that would place him on all time lists. I vaguely remember Bobby Orr but my memories of him are stronger when he was on the downside. Karlsson is the best offensive d man I've seen since then. So while i understand why they'd be compared i don't think that is a reasonable standard to hold Brannstrom to.

Mark Stone. It seems to me he's grown in stature since he left. I don't put a lot of stock in the world championships (colin white looked good in the world championships last year). It's a long way removed from the best players in the world. He didn't play in the most recent best on best event and he wasn't particularly close to playing in it either. He wasn't on Team Canada and if they didn't have the young guys thing, a couple of those guys would have made Team Canada. Today, if there was a bestie event, he'd be a lock. 2022 he might be pencilled in but that is a ways away and he may regress a bit by then. If he does make it, he'll be a one time best on best player. There's lots of those. I don't buy the Selke thing. He didn't win. Other players did. He's a one time nominee. There's a reason that voters gravitate to centers for that trophy. Center is a more valuable position. Wing is the least valuable position in hockey. As Sens fans we don't even have huge playoff heroics from Stone to look back on the way we do with Pageau or Bobby Ryan in the ECF run.

That trade should be evaluated based on Mark Stone and Erik Brannstrom. So in your opinion what must Brannstrom do for that trade to be seen as valued?

This year might be peak Stone on that contract. He just got injured and its a longer term thing. As Sens fans, we know that Stone takes a while to get going after an injury and the injury is really going to take away from what was a very good year.

Is Brannstrom playing top 4 for 7 or 8 years sufficient to say we got good value? Is Brannstrom playing on Team Sweden in a best on best event or two sufficient?

Where is that line drawn?
 
bert

bert

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JD1 said:
Why do people get so caught up in comparing Brannstrom to Karlsson?

Karlsson is a two time Norris trophy winner and imo up until injury knocked him down a bit was on his way to a generational career

Brannstrom was acquired for Mark Stone. Stone is a good player. But he's not generational. He's not hall of fame calibre. He's not even an elite offensive player. Stone's going to have a 5 year run as one of the best two way players in the game. That's his peak. Is the peak worth holding Brannstrom to a Karlsson standard?
Click to expand...

Anyone that compares Brannstrom to Karlsson has no clue what they are watching. It has nothing to do with nationality, name or where they are drafted. Its about watching the players and evaluating them, they simply arent in the same tier. I think a best case scenario for Brannstrom is that of Kimo Timmonen, I strugle to think of any d men that are that size that have had long careers that arent offensive dynamos.

You really gotta stop with the anti Stone stuff, please stop suggesting Stone is regressing he keeps getting better. Its a completely false narrative you always bring up to try and prove your point. Stone is a top 25 player in the league the best player on a contender and a top 3 defensive forward in hockey. Every single metric and the eye test shows that he makes players around him dramatically better. What he brings from a character, leadership and passion impact he and Karlsson really arent far off from a value perspecitve. Stones posession stats are close to the best in the NHL of any forward. I think given what Brannstrom has looked like people have the right to be concerned given what he was traded for. For me I just hope he is an NHL player, if you are a 5'9 D man you have to be one heck of a puck mover to play in this league. I really hope we see more from him next season. I like to take the long approach with all players but I really am not a fan of undersized D men who arent elite skaters.
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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bert said:
Anyone that compares Brannstrom to Karlsson has no clue what they are watching. It has nothing to do with nationality, name or where they are drafted. Its about watching the players and evaluating them, they simply arent in the same tier. I think a best case scenario for Brannstrom is that of Kimo Timmonen, I strugle to think of any d men that are that size that have had long careers that arent offensive dynamos.

You really gotta stop with the anti Stone stuff, please stop suggesting Stone is regressing he keeps getting better. Its a completely false narrative you always bring up to try and prove your point. Stone is a top 25 player in the league the best player on a contender and a top 3 defensive forward in hockey. Every single metric and the eye test shows that he makes players around him dramatically better. What he brings from a character, leadership and passion impact he and Karlsson really arent far off from a value perspecitve. Stones posession stats are close to the best in the NHL of any forward. I think given what Brannstrom has looked like people have the right to be concerned given what he was traded for. For me I just hope he is an NHL player, if you are a 5'9 D man you have to be one heck of a puck mover to play in this league. I really hope we see more from him next season. I like to take the long approach with all players but I really am not a fan of undersized D men who arent elite skaters.
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I didn't mention Stone regressing in that post but you're right i do bring it up

Regression is a real thing and due to the speed of today's game guys usefullness are regressing at earlier stages than at any point in nhl history

I'm just not as high on Stone as some here. Look at what i did say. 5 year run as a top 2 way player. That's not exactly an insult. 2 years with us. 3 with SJ. Boom. Regression kicks in.

Is he generational? No

Hall of Fame calibre? At this point no. Clearly no.

Elite offensively? What's elite? He was just cracking the top 20 in scoring and this is a good year

Those really aren't opinions, they're factually true. Maybe Stone has a back half career like Alfie and becomes a H of F worthy candidate but right now he's not in that discussion
 
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