Be it resolved, adjusting stats using league GPG is a useless endeavor.

GlitchMarner

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Unless I'm reading something wrong, this is not logically sound. If a greater percentage of league goals were scored by top scorers in 1982, then a greater percentages of goals in 1982 were scored by top scorers. You can't use proportional scoring by a subset of the league and compare it directly (or at all) to total decrease in scoring throughout the whole league. The top scorers in 1999 did not score a greater percentage of league goals.

As you state in the first sentence here, the percentage of goals scored by the top 30 goal scorers decreased by 23% between 1982 and 1999. This implies that there are factors negatively impacting the scoring output of top players (one likely example being the decrease in ice time for top lines over time as coaches began actually playing their bottom six - particularly the fourth line). If anything, the information you've provided just bolsters the argument that it's harder to put up high scoring numbers in the modern NHL than it was 30 years ago.

Actually, I should have written, "the decrease in the number (not percentage) of goals scored by the top 30 goal scorers between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of 23%) is out of proportion to the decrease in the percentage of goals scored per game between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of approximately 34%). This indicates that a larger percentage of goals were being scored by the top 30 scorers in 1999 than in 1982."

In 1982, the top 30 scorers scored more goals in total than the number of goals the top 30 scorers in 1999 scored.

However, the top 30 scorers in 1999 accounted for a greater percentage of the total goals scored in the NHL than the top 30 scorers in 1982 did.

Essentially, the League-wide scoring rate plummeted and so did the raw goal production of the top 30 scorers, but the percentage of the total number of goals scored in the NHL by the top 30 scorers increased between 1982 and 1999.

1999 isn't entirely current. It's approximately mid-way between '82 and now.
 
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SmellOfVictory

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Actually, I should have written, "the decrease in the number (not percentage) of goals scored by the top 30 goal scorers between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of 23%) is out of proportion to the decrease in the percentage of goals scored per game between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of approximately 34%). This indicates that a larger percentage of goals were being scored by the top 30 scorers in 1999 than in 1982."

In 1982, the top 30 scorers scored more goals in total than the number of goals the top 30 scorers in 1999 scored.

However, the top 30 scorers in 1999 accounted for a greater percentage of the total goals scored in the NHL than the top 30 scorers in 1982 did.

Essentially, the League-wide scoring rate plummeted and so did the raw goal production of the top 30 scorers, but the percentage of the total number of goals scored in the NHL by the top 30 scorers increased between 1982 and 1999.

1999 isn't entirely current. It's approximately mid-way between '82 and now.
Thanks for clarifying; that makes sense to me.
 

GlitchMarner

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daver

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problem with adjusting numbers is usually the people have an agenda--ether down playing players from one era or increasing ones from another

This is the motivation for the thread. Someone makes a claim then relies on adjusted scoring when a performance vs. peers review disproves their claim.
 

Canadiens1958

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This is the motivation for the thread. Someone makes a claim then relies on adjusted scoring when a performance vs. peers review disproves their claim.

Except a review amongst and across generations of peers takes any discussion in another direction altogether. The distiction between amongst and versus peers(your preference) is critical.

Prime example, the issue of Lidstrom's physicality is not a competition but an overview of all defencemen that were his contemporaries. From such a perspective it becomes clear that Lidstrom was more physical than a fair number of his peers, notably Duncan Keith.
 

daver

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Except a review amongst and across generations of peers takes any discussion in another direction altogether. The distiction between amongst and versus peers(your preference) is critical.

Prime example, the issue of Lidstrom's physicality is not a competition but an overview of all defencemen that were his contemporaries. From such a perspective it becomes clear that Lidstrom was more physical than a fair number of his peers, notably Duncan Keith.

IMO, a performance vs. peers is the starting point for a statistical analysis, not a adjusted points vs. adjusted points. This assumes that a peer group of the best 2o to 30 offensive forwards is stable year after year save for outliers like Wayne and Mario, and consideration for the O6 era.

IMO, when two players from two different eras have proven to be similarly dominant vs. their peers, they are on the same tier in terms of offensive production.
 

Canadiens1958

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IMO, a performance vs. peers is the starting point for a statistical analysis, not a adjusted points vs. adjusted points. This assumes that a peer group of the best 2o to 30 offensive forwards is stable year after year save for outliers like Wayne and Mario, and consideration for the O6 era.

IMO, when two players from two different eras have proven to be similarly dominant vs. their peers, they are on the same tier in terms of offensive production.

So your agenda, not bias, is strictly offensive performance but this results in a statistical analysis that is bound to fail since you are not adjusting for strength of opposition defence and goaltending. No, strength of opposition defence and goaltending is not a constant across a league or schedule during the same season.
 

daver

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So your agenda, not bias, is strictly offensive performance but this results in a statistical analysis that is bound to fail since you are not adjusting for strength of opposition defence and goaltending. No, strength of opposition defence and goaltending is not a constant across a league or schedule during the same season.

Those are fine to introduce into a discussion but does that really apply to the game over the last 50 years since the O6?

That being said, assumptions that a player would do better or worse given different opposition and goaltending is, at best, an arguable difference to be made when two players are similar in offensive production, especially high end offensive production, especially in the modern game.
 

Canadiens1958

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Those are fine to introduce into a discussion but does that really apply to the game over the last 50 years since the O6?

That being said, assumptions that a player would do better or worse given different opposition and goaltending is, at best, an arguable difference to be made when two players are similar in offensive production, especially high end offensive production, especially in the modern game.

Yes, it applies since you no longer have balanced schedules - teams no longer play each other the same number of times during the RS.
 

Canadiens1958

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Do you have a recent example of a player whose numbers should be adjusted?

All of them. If looking at players' offensive production for a recent season, a starting point beyond the league data would be within a conference, within a division, against a conference, against a division, against a team.
 

daver

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All of them. If looking at players' offensive production for a recent season, a starting point beyond the league data would be within a conference, within a division, against a conference, against a division, against a team.

We have gotten off topic. What does this have to do with adjusting stats using league GPG?
 

daver

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Alternative options based on importance of games.

I don't see where any adjusting of stats using league GPG bears any relevance to what you are talking about. Seems you are promoting taking a more in-depth view of a performance vs. peers analysis.
 

trentmccleary

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It fails to capture the variance in the # of PP called in different seasons which is not reflected in changes to the league GPG.

All adjustments fail at some point (GPG, VxX, whatever), but using raw data across eras is almost always worse than using any adjustment.

IMO, a performance vs. peers is the starting point for a statistical analysis, not a adjusted points vs. adjusted points. This assumes that a peer group of the best 2o to 30 offensive forwards is stable year after year save for outliers like Wayne and Mario, and consideration for the O6 era.

IMO, when two players from two different eras have proven to be similarly dominant vs. their peers, they are on the same tier in terms of offensive production.

This method is great when the players' leagues are close to the same size, but starts to fall apart when that number gets too far apart. Finishing 10th is a 31 team league is a lot more impressive than finishing 10th in a 6 team league.

The top 30 goal scorers in 1982 posted these goal totals:

1. Gretzky - 92
2. Bossy - 64
3. Maruk - 60
4. Ciccarelli - 55
5. Vaive - 54
6. Stoughton - 52
7. Middleton - 51
8. Messier - 50
9. Dionne - 50
10. Trottier - 50
11. Stastny - 46
12. Barber - 45
13. Hawerchuk - 45
14. Secord - 44
15. Propp - 44
16. Pederson - 44
17. Lukowich - 43
18. Smith - 43
19. Goulet - 42
20. McDonald - 40
21. Duguay - 40
22. Napier - 40
23. Sutter - 39
24. Tardiff - 39
25. Wilson - 39
26. Taylor - 39
27. Broten - 38
28. Petterson - 38
29. Walter - 38
30. Gillies - 38

These 30 players combined for 1402 goals out of the 6741 that were scored League-wide in 1982 (or approximately 21% of the total).


The top 30 goal scorers in 1999 posted these goal totals:

1. Selanne - 47
2. Jagr - 44
3. Yashin - 44
4. Amonte - 44
5. LeClair - 43
6. Sakic - 41
7. Lindros - 40
8. Fleury - 40
9. Satan - 40
10. Robitaille - 39
11. Kariya - 39
12. Graves - 38
13. Berezin - 37
14. Demitra - 37
15. Tkachuk - 36
16. Naslund - 36
17. Straka - 35
18. Modano - 34
19. Hull - 32
20. Clark - 32
21. Bondra - 31
22. Turgeon - 31
23. McEachern - 31
24. Shanahan - 31
25. Sundin - 31
26. Forsberg - 30
27. Primeau - 30
28. Guerin - 30
29. Kozlov - 29
30. Khristich - 29


These 30 players combined for 1081 goals out of the 5830 that were scored League-wide in 1999 (or approximately 19% of the total).


The decrease in the percentage of goals scored by the top 30 goal scorers between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of 23%) is out of proportion to the decrease in the percentage of goals scored per game between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of approximately 34%). This indicates that a larger percentage of goals were being scored by the top 30 scorers in 1999 than in 1982.

The reasons for this could be related to increased PPOs and/or ice time for elite scorers. It's also possible that higher-end scorers simply were simply better able to overcome the improvements in goaltending and defensive play than less talented players.


If you use the analogy of equating goals to currency, then adjusted goal totals accurately represent the values of goals on an adjusted scale. To this extent, these numbers have a purpose. Individual goals are worth more when goals in general are less common.

However, whether point and goal adjustments based on League-wide scoring rates are "fair" to the elite scorers of a given era is a different question. Even if we account for advantages and disadvantages in PPOs, games played and ice time for elite player, it's possible that adjusted point and/or goal totals of elite players from higher scoring eras will be more negatively impacted than perhaps they should be by scoring adjustments based on League-wide scoring rates than the scoring totals of elite players from lower scoring eras.

In my opinion, when differences in games played, PPOs and ice time for elite players are accounted for, adjusted goal and point totals are still a more meaningful basis for comparing the scoring totals of players from different eras since the 1967 expansion than using raw point totals, which obviously heavily favor players from higher scoring eras.

I'm sure you'll agree Maruk's goal total of 60 from 1982 cannot be compared directly to Jagr's goal total (44) from 1999 in any meaningful way. Their adjusted goal totals from those seasons (51 for Jagr in 81 games and 44 for Maruk) are a better representation of the impact of each player's goal scoring in 1982 and 1999 and a better indicator of each player's goal scoring aptitude as well in this case.

In 1917, when their were 4 teams... the top-30 scorers scored 99% of the goals.
In 2117, when there will be 60 teams... the top-30 scorers will score 5% of the goals.

1982, 21 teams (21 top players = 15.6% of the goals)
1999, 21 teams (27 top players = 17.0% of the goals)

Say Bure gets hurt that year and Jagr finishes number 1 with the exact same goal total. Does that make Jagr's season more impressive? It shouldn't and that's why I don't think comparing scoring relative to their peers is really all that indicative of being a better player.

And this is when we need to have the option of looking at per game adjustments too in addition to adjusted totals.


Do you have a recent example of a player whose numbers should be adjusted?

Chris Mason 06-07 (spent the year beating up on Chi, St.L & CLB)
Every player who played in the SouthLeast division when we called it the SouthLeast division.
 

GlitchMarner

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I've been thinking about the PP factor and I'm not sure it even matters much when it comes to adjusted point totals.

Fewer PPOS across the League should affect the raw output of the highest scorers, but since adjustment based on League-wide scoring rates is basically a measure of how a player scores relative to the overall scoring output of the League, a player who plays in a season with fewer PPOs than a player who plays in a season with more PPOs really shouldn't be at a disadvantage as far as adjusted point totals are concerned because fewer PPOs League-wide should keep the overall scoring rate lower than it would be in a season with more PPOs, meaning that the points a player playing in a season with fewer PPOs scores are essentially "worth more" in terms of adjusted points.

If the most talented players in the NHL get a lot of PPOs to work with, there should be an increase in the League-wide scoring rate, which should in turn deflate the value of each individual point.

On the other hand, if players get few PPOS, then the League-wide scoring rate should decrease and thus each individual point should be worth more in terms of adjusted points.

While having fewer PPOs can affect the raw outputs of the top scorers, I'm not sure it has any substantial impact on the adjusted point totals of the top scorers when adjusted point totals are based on the overall scoring rate in the NHL.


As for TOI: I'm not sure it really has varied all that much among premiere players in the last 30 or so years in general. I was comparing the ice times of the top 20 scorers in 2003 to the ice times of the top 20 scorers in 2011 (a season in which the adjusted outputs of the top 20 scorers are considerably lower than those of the top 20 scorers in 2003) and couldn't find a major trend in terms of decreased ice time for the top 20 scorers in 2011.
 

rintinw

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The top 30 goal scorers in 1982 posted these goal totals:
...
These 30 players combined for 1402 goals out of the 6741 that were scored League-wide in 1982 (or approximately 21% of the total).

The top 30 goal scorers in 1999 posted these goal totals:
...
These 30 players combined for 1081 goals out of the 5830 that were scored League-wide in 1999 (or approximately 19% of the total).

The decrease in the percentage of goals scored by the top 30 goal scorers between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of 23%) is out of proportion to the decrease in the percentage of goals scored per game between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of approximately 34%). This indicates that a larger percentage of goals were being scored by the top 30 scorers in 1999 than in 1982.

Actually, I should have written, "the decrease in the number (not percentage) of goals scored by the top 30 goal scorers between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of 23%) is out of proportion to the decrease in the percentage of goals scored per game between 1982 and 1999 (a decrease of approximately 34%). This indicates that a larger percentage of goals were being scored by the top 30 scorers in 1999 than in 1982."

In 1982, the top 30 scorers scored more goals in total than the number of goals the top 30 scorers in 1999 scored.

However, the top 30 scorers in 1999 accounted for a greater percentage of the total goals scored in the NHL than the top 30 scorers in 1982 did.

Essentially, the League-wide scoring rate plummeted and so did the raw goal production of the top 30 scorers, but the percentage of the total number of goals scored in the NHL by the top 30 scorers increased between 1982 and 1999.

1999 isn't entirely current. It's approximately mid-way between '82 and now.

You cannot compare raw totals (of top 30 players) with ratios (league). Because you are not accounting for the fact that in 1982 there was 21 team league and in 1999 27 team league. If you assume that league quality has not changed it would mean that top 30 in 1982 does not mean what top 30 in 1999 means.

I imagine better comparison would be top 21 in 1982 to top 27 in 1999 (comparing the share of the same percentile of players):
Top 21 in 1982 had 1054 goals out of 6741 (15.6%). Top 27 in 1999 had 993 goals out of 5830 (17.0%). Adjustment would therefore be 993/1054*21/27*80/82 = 0.715

Therefore according to this adjustment in 1999 season:
- Bossy: 46 goals
- Gretzky: 66 goals

Compared to simple goal adjustment (5830/6741*21/27*80/82 = 0.656):
- Bossy: 42 goals
- Gretzky: 60 goals
 

Doctor No

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Chris Mason 06-07 (spent the year beating up on Chi, St.L & CLB)

This is an interesting one.
In 2006-07, Mason had a 92.5% save percentage and 2.38 GAA (both solid numbers).

However, Mason played an average opponent that was 0.10 goals/game below average, largely built from:
  • 21% of games played against "top quartile" teams (25% is average),
  • 40% of games played against "bottom quartile" teams (25% is average), and
  • 44% of games played at home (50% is average).
Given Mason's mix of opponents, an average goaltender would have had a save percentage of 90.8%, which is higher than the overall league average of 90.5%.

(Some data pulled from here: Chris Mason with others pulled from my database that produces the web page).
 

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