Speculation: Barroway looking to sell 49% stake at $500M valuation

[cobra427]

Rumors run all the time, Jakey. But guess what... you don’t base a position on them. And just because you never heard anything more doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Just like “ Oh the league will find a minority owner.” Based on what??

The league’s position has been they will support Barroway and the franchise in Arizona as long as HE is willing to stick it out. What happens if he decides he can’t? If he finds another city willing to host him he can move the Coyotes there and the league has little recourse to stop it (Raiders v NFL II)

The league isn’t going to operate the team without someone footing the bill other than them. Last time they got Glendale to do it, but that bridge is burnt.... pulverized and buried 200 feet under. And you can be assured every other city took note of that.

Why would the NHL not consider footing the bill, that might be a false assumption? If the team moves because it fails in AZ, it could hurt the value of all franchises. It could also effect expansion fees. The NHL could be telling new potential franchises that there are not any teams available to relocate.

Any short term losses the NHL (which means all other teams) would have to cover is likely way less then the potential of a team moving that could hurt long term franchise values and any expansion fees. Think about the success of Vegas last year. The NHL can argue how great that was for Vegas and the new owner and now want to charge a higher franchise fee. Do you think they screw that up by letting the coyotes move or do they cover any short term losses if needed. The NHL (all owners) have been playing the long game and this is why the team is staying in my opinion. Long term value for everyone trumps short term losses on the Coyotes.

You guys can all disagree but this is the math equation they are running.

 

[_Del_]

The NHL is playing a long-game. They've had someone else pick up the tab everytime, including the operating losses when they owned them. Moving the Coyotes doesn't screw up valuations and expansion anymore than moving the Thrashers to a better NHL-market did. Atlanta had all the reasons to stay that Phoenix does (market size, growing the footprint, etc, etc), and they still moved somewhere that had an empty barn that wanted them with ownership that wanted them. The league wants healthy franchises with healthy arena deals using public monies. They won't care that Paul Allen turns a stagnating franchise into a healthy one, and pays an obscene purchase price along with a relo fee, instead of waiting for a slightly larger expansion fee (that he at present has repeatedly and loudly shown no interest in paying).

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Uh, no regarding the Thrashers. As to the rest of your comment, a nice opinion but only an opinion.

The Thrashers ownership wanted out, and didn’t want the Thrashers to play in their arena either. With no place to play the only option was relocation. Fortune favors the poachers, n’est pas?

 

[_Del_]

The guess I'm missing the part where there is another arena in this valley that is willing to l̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶o̶y̶o̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ pay the Coyotes to play there. Besides the one that the team and league have said repeatedly is not a viable long-term option.

 

[cobra427]

Uh, no regarding the Thrashers. As to the rest of your comment, a nice opinion but only an opinion.

The Thrashers ownership wanted out, and didn’t want the Thrashers to play in their arena either. With no place to play the only option was relocation. Fortune favors the poachers, n’est pas?

Exactly, totally different situation.

 

[cobra427]

The guess I'm missing the part where there is another arena in this valley that is willing to l̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶o̶y̶o̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ pay the Coyotes to play there. Besides the one that the team and league have said repeatedly is not a viable long-term option.

They can play in Glendale until they get a new arena figured out, thats why the NHL said it's not viable long term

 

[_Del_]

Well, we're on year three of the "new arena"-imperative. How long do you figure they stay in a place they say won't work while they wait for a deal that hasn't materialized?

 

[Jakey53]

They can play in Glendale until they get a new arena figured out, thats why the NHL said it's not viable long term

Well, we're on year three of the "new arena"-imperative. How long do you figure they stay in a place they say won't work while they wait for a deal that hasn't materialized?

I have no idea why the NHL and Coyotes have taken this stance. IF the team was winning, say like a Winnipeg, we would be selling out. I think this location thing is a bit overblown, and with the South Mountain Freeway opening next year it will make it easier for the east valley to get there. For Scottsdale residents it's only a hop skip and jump to GRA. I know this has been discussed on this boards until the cows come home so I don't want to start another debate over this, but I think GRA could work, but it now needs major upgrades.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I have no idea why the NHL and Coyotes have taken this stance. IF the team was winning, say like a Winnipeg, we would be selling out. I think this location thing is a bit overblown, and with the South Mountain Freeway opening next year it will make it easier for the east valley to get there. For Scottsdale residents it's only a hop skip and jump to GRA. I know this has been discussed on this boards until the cows come home so I don't want to start another debate over this, but I think GRA could work, but it now needs major upgrades.

You're absolutely right re: the bolded. The reason why the NHL and the Coyotes have taken the stance is that they set a precedent with Glendale to extract eight figures' worth of subsidy per year as supplemental financing for the team. They're looking for that again - couched, of course, in subtle rhetoric such as "arena management fees" and "cooperative financing" and etc. There's more money in the East Valley right now - although prying that money out of east siders' hands has proven to be more difficult than they expected, apparently.

Look, Glendale isn't convenient to the east side. There's no question about it. But an arena at, say, Salt River Fields isn't convenient either, except to a particular population of fans. There really is no truly central location anymore in a metro area that is so sprawled out, where all the true growth is happening on the periphery. What's worse is that we also don't have any sort of mass-transit system like cities like Washington, New York, Boston, et al. have to move large amounts of people conveniently around the city - I guarantee that if we had anything close to Boston's T system that the complaints about getting to GRA would largely vanish.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I suppose the example we should be studying isn't Florida or Ottawa, who kinda have the same problem, but rather Anaheim. Not really in the middle of a sprawling metropolis, but they seem to do okay, and it's not like a lot of people take the bus to Honda Center. Or the train, although it's an option I guess... just as many times as I've been over there public transport doesn't seem like a very Orange County thing to do...

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I suppose the example we should be studying isn't Florida or Ottawa, who kinda have the same problem, but rather Anaheim. Not really in the middle of a sprawling metropolis, but they seem to do okay, and it's not like a lot of people take the bus to Honda Center. Or the train, although it's an option I guess... just as many times as I've been over there public transport doesn't seem like a very Orange County thing to do...

The Honda Center, though, is right by Disneyland. I wouldn't in my wildest dreams compare Westgate to Disney...

 

[Jamieh]

The Honda Center, though, is right by Disneyland. I wouldn't in my wildest dreams compare Westgate to Disney...

Did the trip a few years ago for playoff series vs the Hawks. While it was fun to have access to Disney and Playoffs it's almost an hours walk between places. No issue for me but I can't see too many many doing it.

 

[Jakey53]

You're absolutely right re: the bolded. The reason why the NHL and the Coyotes have taken the stance is that they set a precedent with Glendale to extract eight figures' worth of subsidy per year as supplemental financing for the team. They're looking for that again - couched, of course, in subtle rhetoric such as "arena management fees" and "cooperative financing" and etc. There's more money in the East Valley right now - although prying that money out of east siders' hands has proven to be more difficult than they expected, apparently.

Look, Glendale isn't convenient to the east side. There's no question about it. But an arena at, say, Salt River Fields isn't convenient either, except to a particular population of fans. There really is no truly central location anymore in a metro area that is so sprawled out, where all the true growth is happening on the periphery. What's worse is that we also don't have any sort of mass-transit system like cities like Washington, New York, Boston, et al. have to move large amounts of people conveniently around the city - I guarantee that if we had anything close to Boston's T system that the complaints about getting to GRA would largely vanish.

In LA you could live 10 miles from the arena and it could take you more time to get to the arena with sitting in traffic and all. Sure Phoenix is spread out, I drive these roads everyday, and it can get pretty bad in rush hour, but it's the same in every big metro city. IF the team wins, people will come. There is no use talking about mass-transit because that is only another excuse people use.

 

[Jamieh]

In LA you could live 10 miles from the arena and it could take you more time to get to the arena with sitting in traffic and all. Sure Phoenix is spread out, I drive these roads everyday, and it can get pretty bad in rush hour, but it's the same in every big metro city. IF the team wins, people will come. There is no use talking about mass-transit because that is only another excuse people use.

I still say if they are entertaining it would go a long way towards getting people to come back. We get plenty of other Team's fans out once or twice a year and for years they have watched boring hockey. That won't get them back for any games but their own team. If the Coyotes play like 2nd half of last season hockey fans would pay to watch. Ideally they win and create our own fan base but I would still take other Team's fans money in the meantime.

 

[moosemeister]

Another thing is when Seattle joins, we are likely the team going to the central.

Having Chicago and Minnesota come to our rink a few extra times a year will certainly put more butts in seats

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Well, we're on year three of the "new arena"-imperative. How long do you figure they stay in a place they say won't work while they wait for a deal that hasn't materialized?

“Patience, Grasshopper.”

 

[The Feckless Puck]

There is no use talking about mass-transit because that is only another excuse people use.

There's no use talking about mass transit - right now, anyway - but the more young people who use light rail and look at cars as unnecessary who register to vote, the more likely it will be a legit possibility in the future.

I talk about train-based mass transit a lot when I talk about sprawl because I've lived in a couple of cities that had it, and the convenience factor is so incredible.

 

[cobra427]

Well, we're on year three of the "new arena"-imperative. How long do you figure they stay in a place they say won't work while they wait for a deal that hasn't materialized?

As long as it takes.

 

[cobra427]

“Patience, Grasshopper.”

Snatching the pebble isn't easy

 

[cobra427]

There's no use talking about mass transit - right now, anyway - but the more young people who use light rail and look at cars as unnecessary who register to vote, the more likely it will be a legit possibility in the future.

I talk about train-based mass transit a lot when I talk about sprawl because I've lived in a couple of cities that had it, and the convenience factor is so incredible.

I see it happening in the future for sure next 5-10 years. Keep in mind many ticket buyers moved away from the congestion of other states in order to have a lifestyle they enjoy. Using mass transit could be a deal breaker for many.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I see it happening in the future for sure next 5-10 years. Keep in mind many ticket buyers moved away from the congestion of other states in order to have a lifestyle they enjoy. Using mass transit could be a deal breaker for many.

I only see that from people in cities that don't have good mass transit options, though. When I lived in Boston, I tried driving to a Red Sox game once and swore never to do it again, even though my apartment was less than 10 minutes from Fenway. But when I moved to New Hampshire, I went to games all the time because I could just drive to the nearest T station and hop a train right out to the ballpark.

The thing a lot of people don't get about a good metro/train solution is that, even if it takes longer than driving, it's a lot more relaxing of a commute.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Did the trip a few years ago for playoff series vs the Hawks. While it was fun to have access to Disney and Playoffs it's almost an hours walk between places. No issue for me but I can't see too many many doing it.

Yeah, one of the two times I went to see a Duck game I actually did take a bus (from the Westin South Coast), and you never get the sense you're near Disney. As you say, it would be 3 miles walk across 2 freeways away.

(Plus I'm from Orlando, so I've been over the whole Disney thing since high school )

 

[TheLegend]

The Honda Center, though, is right by Disneyland. I wouldn't in my wildest dreams compare Westgate to Disney...

Well....... if Castles and Coasters were to make the big move west......

 

[strizzy16]

You're absolutely right re: the bolded. The reason why the NHL and the Coyotes have taken the stance is that they set a precedent with Glendale to extract eight figures' worth of subsidy per year as supplemental financing for the team. They're looking for that again - couched, of course, in subtle rhetoric such as "arena management fees" and "cooperative financing" and etc. There's more money in the East Valley right now - although prying that money out of east siders' hands has proven to be more difficult than they expected, apparently.

Look, Glendale isn't convenient to the east side. There's no question about it. But an arena at, say, Salt River Fields isn't convenient either, except to a particular population of fans. There really is no truly central location anymore in a metro area that is so sprawled out, where all the true growth is happening on the periphery. What's worse is that we also don't have any sort of mass-transit system like cities like Washington, New York, Boston, et al. have to move large amounts of people conveniently around the city - I guarantee that if we had anything close to Boston's T system that the complaints about getting to GRA would largely vanish.

There are similar problems here in Atlanta (huge sprawl, terrible mass transit), but from my experience in both cities it is much easier to get around Phoenix and get to games. Also don't the Cardinals do great attendance-wise, in the same area? obviously it's different with 41 games vs 8, but I would imagine there would be more of a "gameday" type of tailgating atmosphere if the Coyotes were actually good and playing in meaningful games. But, in terms of the Thrashers, transit issues and being farther away from the fanbase (more of the fanbase was in the northern suburbs, close to where the Braves just built a new stadium) wasn't really a huge factor in the decline in interest and the eventual relocation. It's really just the on ice product. The team never won a playoff game and only had 1 good season. The expansion team we got here last year (Atlanta United in MLS) has been a massive success due to immediately contending for a championship, they get crazy crowds and a lot of people in their 20's are super in to it. No attendance issues like the Thrashers. Coyotes will be fine long-term if we continue to improve over the next 2-3 years in to a contender.