Balsillie/Phoenix part IV

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

GHOST, do you have any substance to that accusation or was this just thrown out there for many posters to reference as truth later (forum-style)?

The chart is from one of the documents filed at the Bankruptcy hearing. He posted a direct link to the document a few pages back:

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/acrobat/e5/fb/99c0e5634743b7d6956c7080c9e1.pdf

 

[David Singleton]

The chart is from one of the documents filed at the Bankruptcy hearing. He posted a direct link to the document a few pages back:

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/acrobat/e5/fb/99c0e5634743b7d6956c7080c9e1.pdf

Please note the part of GHOST's post that I bolded- I was questioning his accusation that Moyes (or the team) bought tickets to meet revenue sharing thresholds.

I have not questioned the numbers in the referenced chart.

 

[KevFu]

Personally, I think JB's realignment proposal is genius. Not because the geography works (because with six divisions and these 30 teams, it's never going to work), but because it was the best possible thing he could propose.

#1 - It's the path of least resistance.
Instead of moving everyone, he moves only two teams.
And the team he moved loses just TWO time zone games, but is actually closer to all the teams in the new division.

#2 - He makes sure his team is the team suffering the most from a travel standpoint in the move.

Yeah, VAN, CAL, EDM and MIN have to go to Hamilton three times a year each.
But he's got to go to VAN, CAL, EDM and MIN a combined 12 times.
The Pacific has to go to Hamilton twice instead of Phoenix twice, and Colorado instead of Phoenix once. He's still gotta play 28 of 41 road games outside his own time zone, by far the worst in the league.

#3 - He realized that if he's gotta be stuck in the West and with bad travel, at least he has nine home games vs Canadian teams, which he can have a much better rivalry with than LA, DAL, ANA, SJ.

 

[Omar Little]

I understand bettman's willingness to stick with a location but 13 straight money losing seasons with amount to 360 millions in total losses is ridiculous. Gary should take a lesson on cutting your losses

 

[Bitterman]

Well, Nashville for one was openly and publicly discussing the possible need to buy up tickets to make quota to qualify for revenue sharing so why would Phoenix of all teams be in a better position than them? The HUGE difference in claimed attendance and turn style attendance is just to large to ignore.

 

[Northern Dancer]

I understand bettman's willingness to stick with a location but 13 straight money losing seasons with amount to 360 millions in total losses is ridiculous. Gary should take a lesson on cutting your losses

I am always curious why fans use profit and loss when talking about Phoenix or any other team in trouble but use EBITDA when talking about big market teams ala Toronto, NYR. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[MoreOrr]

Personally, I think JB's realignment proposal is genius.

Yes, I think it is genius, and exactly because of the 1st reason you give below... "the path of least immediate resistance."

#1 - It's the path of least resistance.
Instead of moving everyone, he moves only two teams.
And the team he moved loses just TWO time zone games, but is actually closer to all the teams in the new division.

#2 - He makes sure his team is the team suffering the most from a travel standpoint in the move.

Yeah, VAN, CAL, EDM and MIN have to go to Hamilton three times a year each.
But he's got to go to VAN, CAL, EDM and MIN a combined 12 times.
. . .

#3 - He realized that if he's gotta be stuck in the West and with bad travel, at least he has nine home games vs Canadian teams, which he can have a much better rivalry with than LA, DAL, ANA, SJ.

All of the above is true. It's the least resistance because only one team gets moved and it's the team that would probably complain the least. However, not one of the teams in the Northwest benefit by having Hamilton in that Division, of course including Hamilton. And only Minnesota isn't significantly hurt by it, other than Colorado's exist from the Division, the distance and Time Zone difference for either Denver or Hamilton is the same for Minnesota.

After one Season, you can be guaranteed that every team in that then 4-Time Zone Division will be complaining and demanding that something get changed.

And let's not forget that this is a Coyotes'/Balsillie idea. If the move to Hamilton ever happens, we've heard no sign (and we will hear no sign) that the League would even seriously consider this alignment because of the horrid Division that it would create for NW teams.

* Here's an idea, if they really want to create an awful, but interesting, NW Division, take both Colorado and Minnesota out and put Hamilton and Toronto in. An All Canadian NW Division.
And Minnesota in the Central would even allow Detroit to finally be put in the East.

 

[David Singleton]

Well, Nashville for one was openly and publicly discussing the possible need to buy up tickets to make quota to qualify for revenue sharing so why would Phoenix of all teams be in a better position than them? The HUGE difference in claimed attendance and turn style attendance is just to large to ignore.

Yes, Nashville's owners did openly discuss the possibility of purchasing tickets if needed (it wasn't). They were protecting their interests. I find no fault in trying to legally work the system. GM's do it every day.

The NHL put the axe to that idea, however.

There also certainly appears to be something amiss with the Phoenix numbers. I'm not going to accuse the franchise or any part of the ownership group, however until more evidence is revealed.

At this point it is sufficient to recognize that the numbers in that chart introduce questions that should be answered by the appropriate individuals involved with the team and potentially the league.

I'm not being confrontational. That said, speculation and rush to judgment never had a good result in the "wild west" with their "lynch mobs" taking justice into their own hands, nor will it have a good result in this age of communication and connectivity allowing for larger "uninformed lynch mobs" to smear and tarnish any individual or group without merit.

Lord knows that "journalists" do enough of that already (ample proof- newspapers have always had an agenda or bias).

Thanks.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Oh I'm sure there will be at some point since it's still way early to know the outcome. That said, Copps is an old dump hosting an AHL team so a major facelift would raise the taxes charged on the building.

Bitterman

I pray you're not Aulander, who owns that AHL franchise in that so called 'dump'

 

[TaketheCannoli]

It's just pure speculation but, what of the Judge rules the Coyotes are portable and additionally rules the NHL is within its rights to enforce the NHL constitutional approval process and home territory rules. What does everyone think Balsillie would do? The NHL could come back and include a fee of hundreds of millions of dollars above the sale price for a team in So. Ontario, yet $0 in Phoenix and maybe $80-100 million in say Winnipeg.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

If that happens, I bet Balsillie would either:

-take the NHL to court over yet another issue (assuming he has groudns to do so)
-withdraw his bid because not all of his conditions have been met.

At that point, I think it becomes an auction between WPG, LV and KC.

 

[Egil]

Yes, I think it is genius, and exactly because of the 1st reason you give below... "the path of least immediate resistance."



All of the above is true. It's the least resistance because only one team gets moved and it's the team that would probably complain the least. However, not one of the teams in the Northwest benefit by having Hamilton in that Division, of course including Hamilton. And only Minnesota isn't significantly hurt by it, other than Colorado's exist from the Division, the distance and Time Zone difference for either Denver or Hamilton is the same for Minnesota.

After one Season, you can be guaranteed that every team in that then 4-Time Zone Division will be complaining and demanding that something get changed.

And let's not forget that this is a Coyotes'/Balsillie idea. If the move to Hamilton ever happens, we've heard no sign (and we will hear no sign) that the League would even seriously consider this alignment because of the horrid Division that it would create for NW teams.

* Here's an idea, if they really want to create an awful, but interesting, NW Division, take both Colorado and Minnesota out and put Hamilton and Toronto in. An All Canadian NW Division.
And Minnesota in the Central would even allow Detroit to finally be put in the East.

You realize that with the new schedule that being in the same division only adds 1 extra road game vs that team? Hamilton is also easy to link with other Eastern teams in the schedule (easier than Colorado or Phoenix) which often required random detour road trips (which is what really kills travel).

I suspect that it is easier to come up with a less distance travel schedule with Balsilles proposed realignment than with the current team locations for Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton.

 

[copperandblue]

You realize that with the new schedule that being in the same division only adds 1 extra road game vs that team? Hamilton is also easy to link with other Eastern teams in the schedule (easier than Colorado or Phoenix) which often required random detour road trips (which is what really kills travel).

I suspect that it is easier to come up with a less distance travel schedule with Balsilles proposed realignment than with the current team locations for Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton.

I agree with what you're saying in a philosophical sense but I think the logistics are much more difficult to deal with.

Speaking only from an Edmonton point of view, because that's who I am familiar with, tacking on a Hamilton stop during an Eastern swing would just add to what are already exceptionally long road trips. Twice a year they go down east in part due to arena conflicts here. They use that time to make extended road trips through the East to minimize the back and forth. Adding a stop, although it makes sense from a mileage perspective, adds a couple days to what are already gruelling road trips.

Further to that, even though we are talking about 1 additional road game it is still 3 road games that are further out of the way and and additional time zone from what currently exists. Factor in the whole "rivalry" thing that the league is trying to establish by going with home and homes, what seems like an increasing number of back to backs and 3 in 4 night games, the added distance, or perhaps even more importantly the 2 hour time zone differences and finally the weighted schedule that puts divisional teams playing against each other most frequently at the beginning of the year and particularily down the stretch and the remaining NW teams will most likely still end up with the crappy end of the stick.

Doing it for this coming year is even worse because of the Olympics. The schedules always get more compressed to allow for the two week shutdown.

 

[MoreOrr]

Speaking only from an Edmonton point of view, because that's who I am familiar with, tacking on a Hamilton stop during an Eastern swing would just add to what are already exceptionally long road trips. Twice a year they go down east in part due to arena conflicts here. They use that time to make extended road trips through the East to minimize the back and forth. Adding a stop, although it makes sense from a mileage perspective, adds a couple days to what are already gruelling road trips.

And your talking Edmonton, and I know you probably don't care, but imagine Vancouver (and Hamilton). Whatever the negatives for Edmonton and Calgary, for Vancouver it would be even worse.

 

[Egil]

I agree with what you're saying in a philosophical sense but I think the logistics are much more difficult to deal with.

Speaking only from an Edmonton point of view, because that's who I am familiar with, tacking on a Hamilton stop during an Eastern swing would just add to what are already exceptionally long road trips. Twice a year they go down east in part due to arena conflicts here. They use that time to make extended road trips through the East to minimize the back and forth. Adding a stop, although it makes sense from a mileage perspective, adds a couple days to what are already gruelling road trips.

Further to that, even though we are talking about 1 additional road game it is still 3 road games that are further out of the way and and additional time zone from what currently exists. Factor in the whole "rivalry" thing that the league is trying to establish by going with home and homes, what seems like an increasing number of back to backs and 3 in 4 night games, the added distance, or perhaps even more importantly the 2 hour time zone differences and finally the weighted schedule that puts divisional teams playing against each other most frequently at the beginning of the year and particularily down the stretch and the remaining NW teams will most likely still end up with the crappy end of the stick.

Doing it for this coming year is even worse because of the Olympics. The schedules always get more compressed to allow for the two week shutdown.

I think that moving Phoenix/Hamilton to the East is a non-starter. So if the team moves, no matter what you are making 2 trips to Hamilton (which isn't that much further from Edmonton than Phoenix, btw). So comparing that isn't realistic, since even if by some miracle Hamilton ended up in the East, some other Eastern team would get moved to the West.

I also disagree with your other point. Edmonton doesn't take too many 1 game road trips, as any destination other than Calgary and Vancouver is quite a ways away. So your road trips in terms of the number of games should stay the same. However, the distance travelled (and scheduling flexibility) becomes much better.

For example, to co-ordinate a trip to Phoenix (best linked with Colorado, Dallas, LA), you have to rely on getting at least 2 out of 9 games with those 4 teams,

Whereas, to co-ordinate with Hamilton, you can link with any of Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Buffalo, Detroit, Boston, NY (3 teams), Pittsbugh, Philly, Chicago, Columbus, Washington (all of these teams are no more than 25% further than than Phoenix to LA). With the current schedule, that is 13 games with many more options for teams to play. Not to mention that Minnisotta is directly on the return flight path from any of these cities for an extra 3 games.

The result, is that travel distance should be reduced with a similar travel length.

 

[copperandblue]

I think that moving Phoenix/Hamilton to the East is a non-starter. So if the team moves, no matter what you are making 2 trips to Hamilton (which isn't that much further from Edmonton than Phoenix, btw). So comparing that isn't realistic, since even if by some miracle Hamilton ended up in the East, some other Eastern team would get moved to the West.

I don't disagree with this and in looking at how the divisions would change, adding Hamilton to the NW probably makes the most sense.

That in itself doesn't mean it's good or people should be happy about it.

What makes the most sense is to not let Hamilton take the Phoenix franchise at all. If they can't find a buyer that will keep it where it is then they should exhuast all options in finding a more western based destination and let Hamilton go the expansion route or if the time/need comes relocate an existing Eastern based franchise.

Whereas, to co-ordinate with Hamilton, you can link with any of Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Buffalo, Detroit, Boston, NY (3 teams), Pittsbugh, Philly, Chicago, Columbus, Washington (all of these teams are no more than 25% further than than Phoenix to LA). With the current schedule, that is 13 games with many more options for teams to play.

Assuming this was the primary issue just for the sake of this point, it shouldn't ignored that with the current unbalanced schedule there aren't travel dates to those Eastern Conference teams each season. At best it's every second and in some case every third.

 

[MoreOrr]

I think that moving Phoenix/Hamilton to the East is a non-starter.

. . . .
For example, to co-ordinate a trip to Phoenix (best linked with Colorado, Dallas, LA), you have to rely on getting at least 2 out of 9 games with those 4 teams,

Whereas, to co-ordinate with Hamilton, you can link with any of Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Buffalo, Detroit, Boston, NY (3 teams), Pittsbugh, Philly, Chicago, Columbus, Washington (all of these teams are no more than 25% further than than Phoenix to LA). With the current schedule, that is 13 games with many more options for teams to play. Not to mention that Minnisotta is directly on the return flight path from any of these cities for an extra 3 games.

The result, is that travel distance should be reduced with a similar travel length.

For one, there's very little talk about Hamilton being in the East Conference. It would really come down to either Hamilton or Atlanta, and the League could easily keep Hamilton in the West (in the Central) for the time being.

I totally understand where your coming from when you talk about "coordinated roadtrips", but you're talking about Edmonton, or Calgary, or Vancouver travelling to Phoenix, and comparing that with those 3 teams travelling to Hamilton. Phoenix is not in the NW, and therefore only 2 roadtrips were necessary, whereas having Hamilton in the NW would mean 3 roadtrips (going both ways) for all 4 of those teams. And not only the "road" trip but also the "time" travel changing 2 or 3 Time Zones, whereas Phoenix, to continue using your comparison, is in the same Time Zone or only 1 Time Zone away from Vancouver. And Time Zones are important not only to the players but to TV audiences. Almost certainly for most of those 6 games between Vancouver and Hamilton very few people in both cities would get to watch them.

You also mentioned about coordinating a trip to Hamilton with games against other nearby Eastern Conference teams. But again, how many times do Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver play those Eastern Conference teams... really only once in a Season (and half are home games), and if Vancouver, for instance, travels to play Northeast teams, sure they can do Hamilton at the same time but it adds yet another game to that roadtrip.

Let's not forget that teams like Vancouver, Edmonton, Colorado, San Jose, Dallas, Calgary, and Minnesota already have grueling travel schedules. 'OH, it's just adding one more....' yes, one more to the worst already.

And lastly, as I said it doesn't all have to do with travel distance but also with number of Time Zones. But just with respect to travel distance, here's the difference with Hamilton in the Northwest as compared to Colorado:

Vancouver - Colorado = 1775 km
Edmonton - Colorado = 1661 km (same Time Zone)
Calgary - Colorado = 1441 km (same TZ)
Minnesota - Colorado = 1112 km
Total = 5989 km

Vancouver - Hamilton = 3350 km (3 times in a Season)
Edmonton - Hamilton = 2706 km (3 times)
Calgary - Hamilton = 2705 km (3 times)
Minnesota - Hamilton = 1101 km
Total = 9862 km

That's a difference of 3873 km x 3 = 11,619 km extra.
Oh yes, "coordinated" roadtrips... Don't you think the League already tries to do that.


Just as a comparison, take Montreal (the most northern team in the East) and put it in a Division with the 4 most southern teams in the Southeast, and calculate total distance difference that Montreal would have to travel to those 4 teams. (Now of course I know that "coordinated" roadtrips would reduce the overall travel, but just looking at raw distances.)

Montreal - Carolina = 1160 km
Montreal - Atlanta = 1592 km
Montreal - Tampa Bay = 2102 km
Montreal - Florida = 2235 km
Total = 7089 km

And yet, those teams are all in the same Time Zone, not 4 different TZs.

 

[HockeyScholar]

.

You are aware that the NW teams do have to travel East to play the Central teams twice a year right? Detroit is how far from Hamilton?

One more stop on a roadtrip isn't a big deal. Even more so when you consider how isolated Colorado is in terms of being in the NW. In fact, the difference in flight times from Edmonton-Hamilton and Edmonton-Denver is less than an hour.

Avg flight time Edmonton-Colorado= 2hr35min
Edmonton-Hamilton=3hr22min

So when you consider the proximity of other teams to Hamilton (including Western Conference teams), this schedule really wouldn't be much of a big deal for the Canadian Western Conference teams, and would be favourable for Minnesota. However, it would be quite the pain in the ass for the Hamilton team, but they can't complain.

 

[Brodie]

Detroit is how far from Hamilton?

About an hour by plane... in terms of being in the same division as Detroit, it's no big deal. But for out of division teams making coordinated trips? That's a long trip.

 

[SoCalPredFan]

You are aware that the NW teams do have to travel East to play the Central teams twice a year right? Detroit is how far from Hamilton?

One more stop on a roadtrip isn't a big deal. Even more so when you consider how isolated Colorado is in terms of being in the NW. In fact, the difference in flight times from Edmonton-Hamilton and Edmonton-Denver is less than an hour.

Avg flight time Edmonton-Colorado= 2hr35min
Edmonton-Hamilton=3hr22min

So when you consider the proximity of other teams to Hamilton (including Western Conference teams), this schedule really wouldn't be much of a big deal for the Canadian Western Conference teams, and would be favourable for Minnesota. However, it would be quite the pain in the ass for the Hamilton team, but they can't complain.

You are aware the the flight time from NYC to London is only about an hour more than the flight time from NYC to LAX.

So, it wouldn't really be a big deal to put an NHL team in England as the 3 NY teams all have to fly out west to play the Kings and/or Ducks every year.

Heck, we could even add a second team in Paris, as one more stop on a roadtrip isn't a big deal. Even moreso when you consider how isolated a British-based team would be compared to the rest of the NE teams.

 

[Moobles]

The schedule actually would hurt Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary more than it would Hamilton simply because of the amount of extra distance they're going to end up travelling. Although Hamilton does have to travel to them and some further teams in the Pacific, they're still a helluva lot closer to the entire Central Division then the other two divisions.

I don't think Western Canada is going to happy about another x-thousand miles added to their yearly travel itinerary, but we first have to solve the legal issues before this is even considered (and whether or not it's Balsille's plan or a league plan).

 

[copperandblue]

One more stop on a roadtrip isn't a big deal. Even more so when you consider how isolated Colorado is in terms of being in the NW. In fact, the difference in flight times from Edmonton-Hamilton and Edmonton-Denver is less than an hour.

The rich part of this argument is that it totally ignores that western based teams have enough trouble attracting free agents with the most often cited reason being that they prefer the East so that they can avoid the excessive travel.

But sure, by all means, add another hour here there or where ever, they are travelling anyways so it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[HockeyScholar]

The schedule actually would hurt Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary more than it would Hamilton simply because of the amount of extra distance they're going to end up travelling. Although Hamilton does have to travel to them and some further teams in the Pacific, they're still a helluva lot closer to the entire Central Division then the other two divisions.

I don't understand this logic at all.

Facts:
-Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver already have to make many Eastern conference roadtrips each year, Hamilton is in close proximity to a significant amount of Eastern teams (Detroit, Toronto, Buffalo).

-Colorado is very isolated, especially when you consider their location within the NW conference and the distance to the nearest teams.

-Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver have to play games in the Central division twice and Northeast once. Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver have to play in Hamilton 3 times a year.

Please enlighten me and tell me what I don't understand. I honestly don't understand where you guys are coming from. In my eyes, if the schedule is made properly, there should be any extra travel.

 

[mouser]

post limit reached, new thread is here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=647882