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The List Of Jericho

Judas effect
Mar 1, 2002
18,024
3,500
Toronto
saying it's bipolar makes it sound like people switch back and forth between thinking he's a good coach and a bad one. that's not the case. I can't remember the last time I was impressed with his coaching ability. he's been pretty consistently underwhelming, and it's making people take greater notice of it the longer it goes

Lmao they do, when we were 6-1 there was no talk like this.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

Registered User
Sep 28, 2015
49,550
59,135
We're coming off a franchise best season, and currently playing at a 109-point pace.

I was wondering how long it was going to take for fans to turn on Babcock. Just proving that no coach will ever be safe in this city.
can't believe 2 first round exits isn't enough success for us fans. We should all lower our expectations so we can be happy with a good first 9 games to this season
 

AuraSphere

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
4,184
2,242
i agree, babcock is totally overrated. Detroit fans couldn't be happier when he left and i'm beginning to see why. He's cocky but he was literally gifted a team of hall of famers when he won a cup decades ago. Game has changed, and his logic sometimes really confuses me. Kapanen had been showing for a really long time he's been ready to be given a top 6 opportunity, but babcock is only realizing this now?

Unbelievably dense.
 
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Blanche Blanche

Torontoooooo
Dec 2, 2017
3,448
3,455
Toronto
I will ask this once, this question usually stumps the person when asked ...

How was babcock out coached?

I’ll bite. In the last two games the opponent coaches have figured out a way to stop the Leaf’s system of stretch passes by clogging up the neutral zone and taking time and space away from Leaf players. They’ve watched video and out coached him. What adjustments has Babcock made to his system? I haven’t seen any. How do Kadri and Connor frikken Brown have a greater TOI than Tavares? His team is lacking intensity, and although some of that is on the players, it’s the coach’s job to get them ready to play. He’s overrated as a coach.

Pretty much with you 100%
I wont call him overated yet. But his lack of an adjustment is concerning. His usage of systems at times is questionable.

Basically it seems teams have figured out our predictable passing lanes. The last 2 games i noticed :

Marner and Tavares have been neutered offensively both these games because the opposing D collapses on them while playing zone and anticipating leafs only 2 plays :
On the wall Marner>JT beside the net. or
JT crashing the net looking for Marners stick. Unfortunately Marner is easy to box out, and 1-3 opposing D now just collapse on JT, and play goalie. ( Credit to JT )
3rd play last option :
Marner and JT pass to the D along the blue line. its brought in with the same mindset, a one pass to Marner or JT or just shoot it from afar. Unfortunately our D isn't that accurate.

Onto Matthews line.

Matthews in the left corner is now being TRAPPED. Making him do quick pressure passes to Marleau and Kap, or shoot through major traffic.
Marleau is invisible, and Kap gets tight coverage. Kap is good, but still honing his skill on the first line no doubt.
If that fails, Matthews gives it to a D. Who either shoots it in, and tries to only give it to...you guessed it! Matthews/Kap who is covered TIGHT.

Basically
Our playbook is a quick stretch pass to a forward. That forward will skate as quickly as possible up the boards, chip it in, or look for the usual predictable passing Partner who is also crashing the net full speed. Once this play is Broken. There is no other play. None. None other than give it to a D and have them go along the blue line, and pass it to either JT/Marner .. AM/Kap or SHOOT.
We look lost and confused when not doing this one play. its scary.
There is no cycling, no D to F to F to D to F, behind the net, set a pick or give and go, causing confusion

We have been figured out, like the fighter who can only throw a big right hand.

With our skating ability and talent, we can clearly bring up the puck with some puck support and carry - a theme that has been brought up over and over and over and over on this forum.
Its Coaching/Systems not using this lineup to the fullest.

Same dead horse beat if we do same thing next game. All eyes on coaching next few games.
 

NightTrain1

Registered User
Oct 20, 2013
532
579
Good lord people. It's one thing to question certain decisions by a coach because you think he made a mistake, but this whole Babcock cant coach, he is out of touch by a decade bullcrap is frickin terrible. And these lightweight "explanations" as to how we are being out coached are absolutely hilarious.

Do you guys want to know WHY Babock has post game responses like the one he had tonight. Because he is basically saying what he cant totally say without calling his team out. They are being OUTWORKED right now. They had it easy early on free wheeling around, scoring at will and playing no defense whatsoever. Now the league is tightening up and things actually require effort and skill combined to get things done.


I have a fair question to those complaining about his "system". Do you seriously believe that he created some unknown, sneaky, impossible to break puzzle of a system that the rest of the league has finally figured out and that is all he knows so he sits dumbfounded on the bench?? Do you know how stupid that makes you look. Coaches play towards favoured styles and try to support the various skills of their players within those styles. It is up to the players to work hard and execute properly. This is why lower skilled teams can find success buying into system and outworking their opponents.

Babcock has been employing different styles to great success here. People arent just now figuring out his ultra-secret formula of stretch passes and breakouts. The players arent executing it properly and are barely moving their feet. The Leafs are being beaten to pucks in all areas of the ice constantly and that is nothing to do with the coach. Like he said, it came easy early on and now that its not they are a step behind.

You do realize this Leafs team has one of the youngest core groups in the league, are sitting third in the east and broke a franchise record for points last season. They have played back to back playoffs with these young guys and pushed the 2017 Cup favorites (2018 winner) to 5 overtime games and all 6 within 1 goal. The following year pushed the heavily favoured Bruins team to 7 games. Coming back from 2-0 and 3-1 deficits while its two star players decided not to show up. They deserved to win the series in fact if it hadnt been for the most spectacular defensive meltdown by one player I have ever witnessed in hockey.

He arrived to coach the worst Leaf Team that has ever existed I believe and since that first year with the proper rebuild starting has posted and 89-53-22 record. In those 2 years and this year Toronto has the second most Goals for of any team, 15 least goals against, the best PP and the 7th best PK, and have given up the 12 least high danger scoring chances against. This with what most on these boards consider to be a totally lacking defensive unit and a hot and cold goalie.



So, tell me again why Babcock sucks and what super secret system you all would employ to make your damn players want to put in some effort.
 

KIWILEAFFAN

Registered User
Dec 28, 2011
1,285
574
New Zealand
Good lord people. It's one thing to question certain decisions by a coach because you think he made a mistake, but this whole Babcock cant coach, he is out of touch by a decade bullcrap is frickin terrible. And these lightweight "explanations" as to how we are being out coached are absolutely hilarious.

Do you guys want to know WHY Babock has post game responses like the one he had tonight. Because he is basically saying what he cant totally say without calling his team out. They are being OUTWORKED right now. They had it easy early on free wheeling around, scoring at will and playing no defense whatsoever. Now the league is tightening up and things actually require effort and skill combined to get things done.


I have a fair question to those complaining about his "system". Do you seriously believe that he created some unknown, sneaky, impossible to break puzzle of a system that the rest of the league has finally figured out and that is all he knows so he sits dumbfounded on the bench?? Do you know how stupid that makes you look. Coaches play towards favoured styles and try to support the various skills of their players within those styles. It is up to the players to work hard and execute properly. This is why lower skilled teams can find success buying into system and outworking their opponents.

Babcock has been employing different styles to great success here. People arent just now figuring out his ultra-secret formula of stretch passes and breakouts. The players arent executing it properly and are barely moving their feet. The Leafs are being beaten to pucks in all areas of the ice constantly and that is nothing to do with the coach. Like he said, it came easy early on and now that its not they are a step behind.

You do realize this Leafs team has one of the youngest core groups in the league, are sitting third in the east and broke a franchise record for points last season. They have played back to back playoffs with these young guys and pushed the 2017 Cup favorites (2018 winner) to 5 overtime games and all 6 within 1 goal. The following year pushed the heavily favoured Bruins team to 7 games. Coming back from 2-0 and 3-1 deficits while its two star players decided not to show up. They deserved to win the series in fact if it hadnt been for the most spectacular defensive meltdown by one player I have ever witnessed in hockey.

He arrived to coach the worst Leaf Team that has ever existed I believe and since that first year with the proper rebuild starting has posted and 89-53-22 record. In those 2 years and this year Toronto has the second most Goals for of any team, 15 least goals against, the best PP and the 7th best PK, and have given up the 12 least high danger scoring chances against. This with what most on these boards consider to be a totally lacking defensive unit and a hot and cold goalie.



So, tell me again why Babcock sucks and what super secret system you all would employ to make your damn players want to put in some effort.

Best post in this thread by far :thumbu:
 

Sniper99

Registered User
Jan 12, 2011
12,408
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Edmonton
Win 5 straight, everything is peachy, lose two everyone loses their **** and its all Babcock's fault. LOL pretty pathetic.
 
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Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
Detroit fans couldn't be happier when he left and i'm beginning to see why.
They were. Then they got to experience other coaches, and now their tune has changed. Chances are the same would happen here if we, for example, fired him today.

I'm not the fan that I once was though. While I still appreciate him as a person and leader, he leaves me wanting tactically. A large part of that is that Babcock is reverting more and more towards the opposite end of my preference from an ideological standpoint. And that bothers me because every tendency in that direction seem to cost us on the ice. We've played our best hockey when we play to our strengths, and we look lost when we try to reign those in so that we can cover our weaknesses.

I dislike that part of his coaching. The part that makes him neuter the offensive creativity of the third line with Lindholm and Brown so that Kadri as a two-way threat disappears, only because he doesn't quite like the risks involved with some of the better talents.

I dislike how he pursues line matching even when we should win every such battle by sheer quality depth. Disrupting rhythm just to make sure one of Matthews, Tavares, or Kadri isn't matched up wrong seem counter-intuitive to me. Those matchups should be what the opposing team worries about.

Breakouts are another thing that confounds me. The quick break is good because it allows you to create a rush game by puck movement, which can be very valuable if you have a slow team. If you have a slow team. We're fast, we're hyper skilled, we can dance through opposition. But we don't, because we take high risk stretch passes to bypass areas of strength. It's insane.

When Babcock was brought on board, he was a big proponent of the center outlet, he wanted us to make skilled plays to beat pressure. He wanted us to carry, and to use unrelenting pressure and pinching. But we're doing less and less of that for each season that goes by, which I assume is because Babs worry over the weaknesses it presents. But the shift sure seem to hurt our strengths more than it helps cover our weaknesses.

Then you have the OT usage, and the special teams distribution. Neither of which I have been a fan of. Actually, the whole personnel usage seem questionable. A lot of players get leaned on because they are consistent in what they offer, even if they don't offer very much. But guys who have tons to offer can see minutes disappear as soon as they have a shaky period. Another thing that seems counter-intuitive to me. If the game is deadlocked and you need to break it open, sending Brown out there over and over just means you get the same kind of shifts over and over. The potential for change is larger with someone who has much more to get out of their game. Give me a struggling Kapanen over Brown, because he actually has the ability to break open structure and do something in a bogged down game.

Personnel choices has grown into an area of contention for me. I value a lot of what Babcock values, I believe in the same kind of roster structure, with a vertical top six, managed ice time, and utilizing depth. However, Babcock really seem to fall into the same trap of somehow preferring a player who consistently works hard to produce mediocre results over someone who achieves good results mainly through his skill. Brown and Leivo, respectively.

Now, I'm sure people will have objections. I have taken into account how we played to begin the season. I can address that, but the post is long enough so ask for it in that case.

With all this said, I do think people are (as usual) a bit over the top with the criticism. He isn't a moron. He isn't ruining our team. Saying things like that just shows you are emotionally invested in your stance enough to turn things personal. And you can't in one post give him no credit for the Detroit teams because those were stacked, and then give him all the blame for things wrong now. Coaches can assert influence over any roster, but the roster is still the backbone.

I would also empathize what I said to begin with. A lot of this is based on ideology. I dislike how he priorities weaknesses over strengths. I find it quite hilarious that he did that even on the most stacked team in many years, the Canadian Olympics team. However, it's also not lost on me that he created an absolute juggernaut with that team. Just because I don't like how he does things doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong.

I have tried to take stock of his coaching in pretty much every area I can think of, much more than just the little I wrote about above, and I don't see coaching that deserves to be called some of the best there is. He's a good coach. But it's also possible that he is the wrong coach for us.

That brings us to the final point though. What else is out there? Looking through the options, I don't see a name that we would view differently. Bruce Boudreau would be perfect for us. Quenneville would be nice to, if only for one of his greatest qualities. He likes to just step out of the way of his best players, and let them do their thing. But those guys are not available. What is available is a heap of mediocrity, with a few promising names like Keefe. However, that's far from a certain thing.

So we're stuck with Babcock for now. For good and bad.
 
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Blanche Blanche

Torontoooooo
Dec 2, 2017
3,448
3,455
Toronto
They were. Then they got to experience other coaches, and now their tune has changed. Chances are the same would happen here if we, for example, fired him today.

I'm not the fan that I once was though. While I still appreciate him as a person and leader, he leaves me wanting tactically. A large part of that is that Babcock is reverting more and more towards the opposite end of my preference from an ideological standpoint. And that bothers me because every tendency in that direction seem to cost us on the ice. We've played our best hockey when we play to our strengths, and we look lost when we try to reign those in so that we can cover our weaknesses.

I dislike that part of his coaching. The part that makes him neuter the offensive creativity of the third line with Lindholm and Brown so that Kadri as a two-way threat disappears, only because he doesn't quite like the risks involved with some of the better talents.

I dislike how he pursues line matching even when we should win every such battle by sheer quality depth. Disrupting rhythm just to make sure one of Matthews, Tavares, or Kadri isn't matched up wrong seem counter-intuitive to me. Those matchups should be what the opposing team worries about.

Breakouts are another thing that confounds me. The quick break is good because it allows you to create a rush game by puck movement, which can be very valuable if you have a slow team. If you have a slow team. We're fast, we're hyper skilled, we can dance through opposition. But we don't, because we take high risk stretch passes to bypass areas of strength. It's insane.

When Babcock was brought on board, he was a big proponent of the center outlet, he wanted us to make skilled plays to beat pressure. He wanted us to carry, and to use unrelenting pressure and pinching. But we're doing less and less of that for each season that goes by, which I assume is because Babs worry over the weaknesses it presents. But the shift sure seem to hurt our strengths more than it helps cover our weaknesses.

Then you have the OT usage, and the special teams distribution. Neither of which I have been a fan of. Actually, the whole personnel usage seem questionable. A lot of players get leaned on because they are consistent in what they offer, even if they don't offer very much. But guys who have tons to offer can see minutes disappear as soon as they have a shaky period. Another thing that seems counter-intuitive to me. If the game is deadlocked and you need to break it open, sending Brown out there over and over just means you get the same kind of shifts over and over. The potential for change is larger with someone who has much more to get out of their game. Give me a struggling Kapanen over Brown, because he actually has the ability to break open structure and do something in a bogged down game.

Personnel choices has grown into an area of contention for me. I value a lot of what Babcock values, I believe in the same kind of roster structure, with a vertical top six, managed ice time, and utilizing depth. However, Babcock really seem to fall into the same trap of somehow preferring a player who consistently works hard to produce mediocre results over someone who achieves good results mainly through his skill. Brown and Leivo, respectively.

Now, I'm sure people will have objections. I have taken into account how we played to begin the season. I can address that, but the post is long enough so ask for it in that case.

With all this said, I do think people are (as usual) a bit over the top with the criticism. He isn't a moron. He isn't ruining our team. Saying things like that just shows you are emotionally invested in your stance enough to turn things personal. And you can't in one post give him no credit for the Detroit teams because those were stacked, and then give him all the blame for things wrong now. Coaches can assert influence over any roster, but the roster is still the backbone.

I would also empathize what I said to begin with. A lot of this is based on ideology. I dislike how he priorities weaknesses over strengths. I find it quite hilarious that he did that even on the most stacked team in many years, the Canadian Olympics team. However, it's also not lost on me that he created an absolute juggernaut with that team. Just because I don't like how he does things doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong.

I have tried to take stock of his coaching in pretty much every area I can think of, much more than just the little I wrote about above, and I don't see coaching that deserves to be called some of the best there is. He's a good coach. But it's also possible that he is the wrong coach for us.

That brings us to the final point though. What else is out there? Looking through the options, I don't see a name that we would view differently. Bruce Boudreau would be perfect for us. Quenneville would be nice to, if only for one of his greatest qualities. He likes to just step out of the way of his best players, and let them do their thing. But those guys are not available. What is available is a heap of mediocrity, with a few promising names like Keefe. However, that's far from a certain thing.

So we're stuck with Babcock for now. For good and bad.

One helluva good read.

I think alotta people have this stance that his ideology is on the wrong side of things, rather than what he is doing actually wrong despite how some of it sounds right after a game like tonight.

For me Its always been his short leash on the Star players.
Seems like he would try and stack a line reluctantly, if it pays off, he won't really give it credit. But if it goes bad, he will more often than not, discontinue that usage.

Last season he barely tried Marner/Matthews. They looked electric out there, and if i can recall it payed off a few times. He tried it once on a OT and it cost them.
He sent both Marner and Nylander to 4th lines at times. Maybe this type of lesson is warranted by things we dont know, who knows.

But as you mentioned, he does seem to value the guy who tries so hard, makes the slightest difference VS taking a chance at elite talent, whom sometimes might slack for a second or two.
He needs to live and die by them a little more -- When we are down, his inability to gather his troops and get the best guys out there to change the momentum is always baffling. All teams do this if they have elite talent.

The most evident move that proves his defensive minded/Weakness focused ideology was his decision to play Komorov with Matthews, down a goal or two, behind 1-2 games in a PLAYOFF series with Boston last season. He really just saw the flaws of Matthews/Nylander and completely didn't see an upside of playing Kap/Johnsson or shifting anyone else at the time.

We will see what happens in the next few games. Hope he adjusts like he did with Kap this season
 

Jackson14

Registered User
Feb 23, 2013
727
396
82 game season, ups and downs. Every single last coach in the league is going to look like a genius and a moron at some point in the season. The Leafs are 6-3, solid record.
 

Nineteen67

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Dec 12, 2017
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He never has his players back. Crosby in town and he couldn't contain himself talking about how great he is. He never talks up his own players. Keeps saying they need to learn to be pros. Guess what babs that's on you

The shot at Dubas/Sparks irked me.
 
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Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
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i think he's fine...but i wonder if he simply "over-coaches" at times and gets in his own (and best players) way

The importance of a coach is one of the biggest myths in the game.

They are a piece of a winning puzzle no doubt but not an overly critical one.

Last night Babcock didn’t make the PP go 0-4.

He didn’t say let’s get outhit 33-22 and you Kadri, I don’t want you to throw a single hit in 2 games.

He didn’t draw up the plan for Dermott to be on for 3 goals.

Or say to Tavares, hey John, limit yourself to 1 shot on goal please. Give the others a chance.

Or say to Freddie, let’s save one of those shutout games for another time.

What happens on the ice is largely up to the guys actually on the ice.
 
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TakeTheBody

Registered User
Jan 10, 2018
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Agree on Nith. Excellent post.

The only way Babcock is fired is if the Leafs lose in the first round again this year and next.
 

Al14

Registered User
Jul 13, 2007
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5,452
I’m losing some faith but I am not sure how much can be put on him. We don’t have enough talent on the wings.
Which one of our stars are you proposing for our Leafs to send to the Wings? :laugh:
 

meefer

Registered User
Jun 9, 2015
4,682
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Bangkok
@Nightrain1 and @Nithoniniel

Thank you both. While writing differing opinions, you offer the rarest of commodities in this world: reasoned, supported and courteous arguments.

Keep them coming, please.
 
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DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
31,304
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There's a reason he's one of the most well respected coaches, by his peers as well. Lucky to have him, everyone is an expert.
 
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Nineteen67

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The importance of a coach is one of the biggest myths in the game.

They are a piece of a winning puzzle no doubt but not an overly critical one.

Last night Babcock didn’t make the PP go 0-4.

He didn’dt say let’s get outhit 33-22 and you Kadri, I don’t want you to throw a single hit in 2 games.

He didn’t draw up the plan for Dermott to be on for 3 goals.

Or say to Tavares, hey John, limit yourself to 1 shot on goal please. Give the others a chance.

Or say to Freddie, let’s save one of those shutout games for another time.

What happens on the ice is largely up to the guys actually on the ice.

Are we sure he didn’t tell them not to hit? Ha Ha.

I agree, it’s on the players, but I don’t see a lot of difference between this year and last. I still believe the points were inflated due to the competition in eastern conference and a few steals by Freddy and Mac. Granted, good NHL goalies should steal games, but my point is, right now the team is playing a system that can’t win in the playoffs.
It sure looks and feels like we are going down the same road.
 
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