Babcock vs Blashill

ChrisReevesLegs

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You really know nothing about this board. Around 60-70% of this board wanted him gone and there is a voting thread about it as proof so search it up. Babs is overrated signed, signed, and delivered.

Signed twice? Well it must be true then

It's not my job to dig up your evidence for you guy

BTW thou, if you think 60%-70% of hfboards/detroitredwings is an accurate polling representation of the entire Wings fanbase, well I think you're very much misguided. But I'll be generous and say 50% of Wings fans wanted Babs gone or at least thought he was overrated in 2013. Fair? Now my point was that that number probably jumped to 90% when it really started looking like he was jumping ship. The coping was exquisite.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Babcock = under performing with line up's filled with future Hall of fame players and perrenial all stars.. Brought us a cup which I'm grateful for. His time was up.

Blashill = dealing with hot garbage, broken down players, old boys clubs contract that he can't personally bury in the minors as the coach and forced to develop players with almost no skill to support them... He's doing fine. Next year if we do not see ourselves improving and trending towards a wild card push in the near future. Yzerman makes a move, right before even more money comes off the books and he can spend in free agency as he pleases.
I'm curious who all these future hall of famers that filled the lineup during Babcock's time. Maybe you're thinking of his time in Anaheim when his team swept the Wings roster full of Hall of Famers?

There's Lidstrom obviously. Zetterberg and Datsyuk, maybe/probably? Then...

As much as I love Dats and Z, they're not Crosby and Malkin. Maybe they were for a couple seasons.

People are overrating how good the Wings roster was during that time, and it seems to be to downplay Babcock's accomplishments now that he spurned Detroit for the evil empire in Toronto.
 

saska sault

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I'm curious who all these future hall of famers that filled the lineup during Babcock's time. Maybe you're thinking of his time in Anaheim when his team swept the Wings roster full of Hall of Famers?

There's Lidstrom obviously. Zetterberg and Datsyuk, maybe/probably? Then...

As much as I love Dats and Z, they're not Crosby and Malkin. Maybe they were for a couple seasons.

People are overrating how good the Wings roster was during that time, and it seems to be to downplay Babcock's accomplishments now that he spurned Detroit for the evil empire in Toronto.

Not all at the same time but Babcock coached Yzerman, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Chelios, Shanahan, Hasek, Rafalski, Hossa, Franzen, Kronwall and Osgood.. While the last few won't sniff the Hall of Fame, imagine having line up's winning 50 to 60 games for a few years and winning one cup? I would say he under achieved. Also had Bertuzzi, Flip, Hurdler... The list goes on. So much talent for top 6 and guys who were absolute studs/superstars/Hall of famers and we got 1 cup during his tenure.

It shows how hard it is to win, even with top end talent. Babcock is hard on players and maybe that's why we didn't win more? Maybe bad luck? The same may happen in Toronto for him? Who knows. I appreciate what he did for the Wings but we should have more than 1 banner hanging for the years he was here.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Not all at the same time but Babcock coached Yzerman, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Chelios, Shanahan, Hasek, Rafalski, Hossa, Franzen, Kronwall and Osgood.. While the last few won't sniff the Hall of Fame, imagine having line up's winning 50 to 60 games for a few years and winning one cup? I would say he under achieved. Also had Bertuzzi, Flip, Hurdler... The list goes on. So much talent for top 6 and guys who were absolute studs/superstars/Hall of famers and we got 1 cup during his tenure.

It shows how hard it is to win, even with top end talent. Babcock is hard on players and maybe that's why we didn't win more? Maybe bad luck? The same may happen in Toronto for him? Who knows. I appreciate what he did for the Wings but we should have more than 1 banner hanging for the years he was here.
Again, you're completely overselling the lineup.

Yzerman, Hasek and Chelios were at the very end or near end of their career. Shanahan played one season under Babcock. Those names don't count towards any great roster Babcock had to work with.

So once again you have Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg. I'm still waiting on all this talent in the top six who were studs, superstars, HOFers.

Bertuzzi was the post incident version. Flip was a solid 2nd/3rd line center. Hossa was here 1 season and they made it to game 7 of the Finals. Franzen had three great playoffs and maybe 4 really good regular season performances due to his health. Hudler was hilarious and had a few 50+ point seasons but was hardly exceptional. I liked them because they were Red Wings but they weren't absolute studs.
 

saska sault

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Again, you're completely overselling the lineup.

Yzerman, Hasek and Chelios were at the very end or near end of their career. Shanahan played one season under Babcock. Those names don't count towards any great roster Babcock had to work with.

So once again you have Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg. I'm still waiting on all this talent in the top six who were studs, superstars, HOFers.

Bertuzzi was the post incident version. Flip was a solid 2nd/3rd line center. Hossa was here 1 season and they made it to game 7 of the Finals. Franzen had three great playoffs and maybe 4 really good regular season performances due to his health. Hudler was hilarious and had a few 50+ point seasons but was hardly exceptional. I liked them because they were Red Wings but they weren't absolute studs.

They may not have all been at the top of their game, or there for long term runs.. We had alot of talent any way you want to label players during Babcocks tenure IMO, 1 cup was an under achievement was my main point. Which amongst everything else is personal opinion, but I would imagine a majority of fans would have expected more than 1 championship during the Babcock era.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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They may not have all been at the top of their game, or there for long term runs.. We had alot of talent any way you want to label players during Babcocks tenure IMO, 1 cup was an under achievement was my main point. Which amongst everything else is personal opinion, but I would imagine a majority of fans would have expected more than 1 championship during the Babcock era.
The Wings had good talent but the peak window was pretty short. That 2009 finals loss is still painful. Had they won back to back Cups I think it would have been a fantastic achievement for the team, but they weren't really built for a long run.
 

newfy

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I'm curious who all these future hall of famers that filled the lineup during Babcock's time. Maybe you're thinking of his time in Anaheim when his team swept the Wings roster full of Hall of Famers?

There's Lidstrom obviously. Zetterberg and Datsyuk, maybe/probably? Then...

As much as I love Dats and Z, they're not Crosby and Malkin. Maybe they were for a couple seasons.

People are overrating how good the Wings roster was during that time, and it seems to be to downplay Babcock's accomplishments now that he spurned Detroit for the evil empire in Toronto.

Might not be a line up of all hall of famers but Babcock absolutely had as stacked or more stacked of a roster as anyone post lockout. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are absolutely as good of a one two punch anyone has had post lock out outside of Malkin and Crosby. Malkin and Crosby had nothing close to Lidstrom on the back end though. Mix in a supporting cast of guys including Hossa, Franzen, Hudler, Kronwall, Rafalski, Schneider and Robert Lang and you have a stacked post lock out line up.

People saying it was a line up of hall of famers might be over stating how good they were but it doesnt change the fact that hes likely had the best players to work with post lock out. Especially if you want to include Torontos stacked line up and complete lack of any playoff success at this point.
 

odin1981

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I'm curious who all these future hall of famers that filled the lineup during Babcock's time. Maybe you're thinking of his time in Anaheim when his team swept the Wings roster full of Hall of Famers?

There's Lidstrom obviously. Zetterberg and Datsyuk, maybe/probably? Then...

As much as I love Dats and Z, they're not Crosby and Malkin. Maybe they were for a couple seasons.

People are overrating how good the Wings roster was during that time, and it seems to be to downplay Babcock's accomplishments now that he spurned Detroit for the evil empire in Toronto.

In Anaheim he had 3 and one potential. Neidermyer, Pronger, Selanne, with the maybe being a rookie Getzlaf.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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In Anaheim he had 3 and one potential. Neidermyer, Pronger, Selanne, with the maybe being a rookie Getzlaf.
None of those guys were on the roster when Babcock took Anaheim to the Cup finals.

Unless you were referring to Rob Niedermayer as a Hall of Famer?
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Might not be a line up of all hall of famers but Babcock absolutely had as stacked or more stacked of a roster as anyone post lockout. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are absolutely as good of a one two punch anyone has had post lock out outside of Malkin and Crosby. Malkin and Crosby had nothing close to Lidstrom on the back end though. Mix in a supporting cast of guys including Hossa, Franzen, Hudler, Kronwall, Rafalski, Schneider and Robert Lang and you have a stacked post lock out line up.

People saying it was a line up of hall of famers might be over stating how good they were but it doesnt change the fact that hes likely had the best players to work with post lock out. Especially if you want to include Torontos stacked line up and complete lack of any playoff success at this point.
More stacked of a roster than anyone post lockout? What about the Blackhawks? Those Kane and Toews guys are pretty good. Keith was no slouch either. Then look at their supporting players.

For a brief time the Wings had a great roster. When you list a bunch of players from different years it looks better than it really was.

Again, I think as fans of the team you're overvaluing our players, especially the supporting cast. You really don't think other teams had players like Hudler?
 

vladdy16

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He did that for one season, the other seasons were status quo.

Worse than status quo I would say. Was pretty much the last hurrah.

But the couple seasons leading up were on point, and a level way above what was afforded in Det.

Still an exceptional talent, and an exceptional couple seasons, compared to your run of the mill flawed prospect.

I'll always see 26 and 51 as the Rosetta stone for the 2nd half of Babcocks tenure.
 

vladdy16

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More stacked of a roster than anyone post lockout? What about the Blackhawks? Those Kane and Toews guys are pretty good. Keith was no slouch either. Then look at their supporting players.

For a brief time the Wings had a great roster. When you list a bunch of players from different years it looks better than it really was.

Again, I think as fans of the team you're overvaluing our players, especially the supporting cast. You really don't think other teams had players like Hudler?

I'm just talking about Hudler for fun.(and to summon Heaton) I honestly think there was a relevance to his tenure, but that's an easter egg hunt.

I think the debate here should revolve around where you put it, 13,40 and 5 vs 87 and 71.

I personally think you are underrating our guys in that era. 87 and 71 werent nearly as polished as they are now, and our guys were on that birds eye hyperspace level during that era.

If you want to focus on secondary or tertiary support for those guys, I dont think it reflects great on babcock, franzen and 37,11 or whoever aside.
 
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TheClap

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I agree. I thought it was time for a new coach as well.

But at the same time people weirdly seem bitter that he chose somewhere other than Detroit. And Toronto of all places.

Very few are bitter.

Most of it is schaudenfreude. Babcock is an arrogant dick. He wore out his welcome here in Detroit and truly underachieved and was outcoached on numerous occasions in the post-season, squandering series leads. It's enjoyable to watch him fail elsewhere and be exposed for the mediocre coach he is. His career course is eerily comparable to Mike Keenan's, another arrogant dick of a coach.
 

newfy

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More stacked of a roster than anyone post lockout? What about the Blackhawks? Those Kane and Toews guys are pretty good. Keith was no slouch either. Then look at their supporting players.

For a brief time the Wings had a great roster. When you list a bunch of players from different years it looks better than it really was.

Again, I think as fans of the team you're overvaluing our players, especially the supporting cast. You really don't think other teams had players like Hudler?

Toews and Kane were never the duo Datsyuk and Zetterberg were, Keith isnt Lidstrom. I'll take the wings top 3 over them for sure. But ya the Hawks would be about the only comparable team imo an they got torn apart after that first cup. The wings had a great roster for 4 or 5 straight years with Babcock, they won one cup. Quennville won 3 in a comparable situation in Chicago and I still think Babocck overall had better players to work with.

Not a lot of teams had players like Hudler playing 3rd or sometimes 4th line minutes. I'm listing the high end core players Babcock has had to work with the first 6 or so years in Detroit, its not disingenuous to list all those players even if theyre not all from the same year. I'll throw Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Reilly into the mix as well. Babcock has had the best combination of players of any coach post lock out and hasnt done as much as he should have with it
 

FMichael

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Well Babs pulled a Blash last night...He had Spezza sit in the press box (Blash had done the same to Cholowski last season when they were in Vancouver).

IMHO - both are total 'dick moves'...But that's just me.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Very few are bitter.

Most of it is schaudenfreude. Babcock is an arrogant dick. He wore out his welcome here in Detroit and truly underachieved and was outcoached on numerous occasions in the post-season, squandering series leads. It's enjoyable to watch him fail elsewhere and be exposed for the mediocre coach he is. His career course is eerily comparable to Mike Keenan's, another arrogant dick of a coach.
yeah that doesn't sound bitter at all. :laugh:

Toews and Kane were never the duo Datsyuk and Zetterberg were, Keith isnt Lidstrom. I'll take the wings top 3 over them for sure. But ya the Hawks would be about the only comparable team imo an they got torn apart after that first cup. The wings had a great roster for 4 or 5 straight years with Babcock, they won one cup. Quennville won 3 in a comparable situation in Chicago and I still think Babocck overall had better players to work with.

Not a lot of teams had players like Hudler playing 3rd or sometimes 4th line minutes. I'm listing the high end core players Babcock has had to work with the first 6 or so years in Detroit, its not disingenuous to list all those players even if theyre not all from the same year. I'll throw Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Reilly into the mix as well. Babcock has had the best combination of players of any coach post lock out and hasnt done as much as he should have with it

eh. Agree to disagree. I've already beat this to death. I think Dats and Z had tremendous but much shorter primes than Toews and Kane, or Crosby and Malkin.

Either way it was time for him to move on. If Kenny had his way Babcock would've been here for at least 4 more years.
 
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FMichael

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yeah that doesn't sound bitter at all. :laugh:



eh. Agree to disagree. I've already beat this to death. I think Dats and Z had tremendous but much shorter primes than Toews and Kane, or Crosby and Malkin.

Either way it was time for him to move on. If Kenny had his way Babcock would've been here for at least 4 more years.
I got the impression Babs rode both Hank/Dats like rented mules...Not sure if any other coach demanded as much from his stars as Babs had done while in Detroit?

Was listening to NHL SiriusXM radio this morning...Apparently some of the vets in Detroit nicknamed Babs - 'Goldcock' - as in he was riding on the glory of his Olympic Gold medals for far too long, and it was getting old in the Motor City.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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I got the impression Babs rode both Hank/Dats like rented mules...Not sure if any other coach demanded as much from his stars as Babs had done while in Detroit?

Was listening to NHL SiriusXM radio this morning...Apparently some of the vets in Detroit nicknamed Babs - 'Goldcock' - as in he was riding on the glory of his Olympic Gold medals for far too long, and it was getting old in the Motor City.
I definitely think he has a meticulousness to his demands from players. Beating the drum of defensive responsibility. Like Sutter in Los Angeles.

If the team buys in it works great for a while but the message definitely gets stale for players. 10 years is a long time to be ridden that hard.
 
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newfy

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yeah that doesn't sound bitter at all. :laugh:



eh. Agree to disagree. I've already beat this to death. I think Dats and Z had tremendous but much shorter primes than Toews and Kane, or Crosby and Malkin.

Either way it was time for him to move on. If Kenny had his way Babcock would've been here for at least 4 more years.

Much shorter primes possibly. But we're not talking about their primes total length, we're talking about when Babcock had them which was the entire length of their primes essentially. They were both top ten centers in the league, probably 2 of the top 3 two way centers in the league and they were that for the entirety of Babcocks time in Detroit. The supporting cast fell off toward the end but he got a good 6 or 7 years of possibly contending out of those guys and not enough to show for it in hindsight.

Call it bitterness if you want I guess but teams with trios of Detroits caliber have out performed what Babcock did in Detroit.
 

Winger98

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I think Babcock is a bad counterpuncher. Give him time to prepare for an opponent and he'll probably come up with a way of winning. Unless that opponent shifts gears at some point in the series and adapts. Instead of turning around and adapting to new circumstances, I think Babcock doubles down and says, "stay this course, work harder, and make it happen." And then it's just up to the players to overcome whatever is being thrown at that.

The example that sticks out for me was the last real run the Wings tried to go on when they had Chicago on their heels. Then Quenville worked to get Toews away from Zetterberg, and suddenly the Hawks' center had new life. And Babcock did nothing to work to get that matchup back. It was bizarre and the entire series seemed to turn when Chicago began getting the matchup they wanted with Toews going against anybody but Z.
 

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