Speculation: Babcock is gone, but will Cleary be back? Also tank talk.

[abbbaron]

That's interesting, considering Khan said this today:



Which is exactly how I remembered it. Basically Holland knew Cleary might not have a job and gave him a promise of a 3 year deal.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/06/ask_ansar_on_trades_free_agent.html

To parse the details, I don't remember Cleary ever saying that the offer(s) he received were only tryout offers (I wouldn't expect him to have admitted that), so I'd be interested to know Khan's source for that.
Holland is generally a tactful communicator, so if he leaks details like those, I have to believe there's some basis for them. You could argue that he's just trying to give himself cover from the coming ****storm that will follow Cleary's possible signing, but in any case I doubt it was out of pity that Holland brought him back in 2013.

 

[Frk It]

but in any case I doubt it was out of pity that Holland brought him back in 2013.

I see no other logical reason why. Or just any logical reason why in general, for that matter.

 

[abbbaron]

I see no other logical reason why. Or just any logical reason why in general, for that matter.

How do you explain Holland's original offer to him that he turned down before testing the market? That must've been some incredible benevolence on Holland's part...
Seriously, are you purposely trying to forget how valuable Cleary was in the Chicago series? He and Bickell's going at it played no small part in helping Bickell leverage a fat new deal; the rest of the league wasn't oblivious to what went on in that series either. Cleary had the coach and team's veterans going to bat for him, and the way Holland was talking in the days leading up to and through free agency made it sound like bringing Cleary back was a priority. Ex post we can say it didn't make much sense, but to say now that having interest in Cleary was completely illogical at that time feels rather hindsight-y

 

[Frk It]

How do you explain Holland's original offer to him that he turned down before testing the market? That must've been some incredible benevolence on Holland's part...
Seriously, are you purposely trying to forget how valuable Cleary was in the Chicago series? He and Bickell's going at it played no small part in helping Bickell leverage a fat new deal; the rest of the league wasn't oblivious to what went on in that series either. Cleary had the coach and team's veterans going to bat for him, and the way Holland was talking in the days leading up to and through free agency made it sound like bringing Cleary back was a priority. Ex post we can say it didn't make much sense, but to say now that having interest in Cleary was completely illogical at that time feels rather hindsight-y

Hahaha.

The series where he looked competent and got some lucky 2nd assist's and garbage goals?

Yeah I do remember that. Did you forget the 48 games before that where he looked like absolute garbage? What's more telling.... looking competent for 11 games, or looking like garbage for 48?

 

[abbbaron]

Hahaha.

The series where he looked competent and got some lucky 2nd assist's and garbage goals?

Yeah I do remember that. Did you forget the 48 games before that where he looked like absolute garbage? What's more telling.... looking competent for 11 games, or looking like garbage for 48?

No I didn't forget him being a non-factor in the shortened regular season, but that's also not the point I was getting at. NHL management has a special place in its heart for guys who elevate their play in the playoffs and who do it in gritty fashion. Cleary's play in the 2013 playoffs was going to land him a follow-up gig somewhere if not Detroit. Wasn't it Bertuzzi's battles with Chelios back in 02 that inspired Holland to go out and trade for the guy years later when he was the league's pariah and a shadow of his former self?

 

[Frk It]

No I didn't forget him being a non-factor in the shortened regular season, but that's also not the point I was getting at. NHL management has a special place in its heart for guys who elevate their play in the playoffs and who do it in gritty fashion. Cleary's play in the 2013 playoffs was going to land him a follow-up gig somewhere if not Detroit. Wasn't it Bertuzzi's battles with Chelios back in 02 that inspired Holland to go out and trade for the guy years later when he was the league's pariah and a shadow of his former self?

Then why did no one offer him a regular contract, without requiring he try-out?

We saw how he ended up looking the following pre-season and regular season. I have an incredibly hard time believing an objective GM would have watched him play, and then awarded a contract. Only Holland would, who has lost all objectivity entirely on the matter.

 

[abbbaron]

Then why did no one offer him a regular contract, without requiring he try-out?

So, Holland didn't make him an offer?! And how do you know that Florida and whoever else didn't make him such an offer? Cleary, if you're willing to believe him, was saying at the time that he did have a "guaranteed contract" elsewhere. Holmgren couldn't sign him because Philly was already over the cap and had to wait until October to formalize it (when Pronger's salary would come off the cap), otherwise they had to walk a fine line with the verbal commitment.

We saw how he ended up looking the following pre-season and regular season. I have an incredibly hard time believing an objective GM would have watched him play, and then awarded a contract. Only Holland would, who has lost all objectivity entirely on the matter.

Bowman gave Bickell a fat contract (and you were just as dismissive of him as you were Cleary at that time). All indications are that Holmgren would've locked Cleary up if he could've. Regardless of how awful Holland can be with these kinds of personnel decisions, he has/had company

 

[Frk It]

So, Holland didn't make him an offer?!

Well, I was talking about objective GM's...

And how do you know that Florida and whoever else didn't make him such an offer?

I literally just posted an article from the Wings most credible beat writer that said this.

Bowman gave Bickell a fat contract (and you were just as dismissive of him as you were Cleary at that time).

Go back and look at posts from that season. Everyone on here was in love with Bickell during his post-season run. I wanted to avoid him like the plague. I'm not one to be caught up in small sample sizes. I have been wrong many times on here, but I am at least consistent in that area.

 

[abbbaron]

I literally just posted an article from the Wings most credible beat writer that said this.

And that most credible beat writer contradicted both what Cleary was saying at that time and also what Holland had to say just a couple weeks ago. So is that really the line you'll tow because you think he's got the true story on this one? Or because that's the story you'd prefer to be the case?

Go back and look at posts from that season. Everyone on here was in love with Bickell during his post-season run. I wanted to avoid him like the plague. I'm not one to be caught up in small sample sizes. I have been wrong many times on here, but I am at least consistent in that area.

I recognize you weren't in favor of Cleary or Bickell, full credit to you on that. But we've been discussing something different-- as you know (and knew at that time) the discussion of what will/would happen and what should happen are quite different. And in the "Odds Dan Cleary is re-signed" post you didn't have trouble citing reasons why "it's pretty close to a sure thing that cleary gets extended for 1-3 years". For that reason and others I've cited above, I think trying to reinterpret history with some kind of pity narrative seems a bit of stretch.

 

[Frk It]

And that most credible beat writer contradicted both what Cleary was saying at that time and also what Holland had to say just a couple weeks ago. So is that really the line you'll tow because you think he's got the true story on this one? Or because that's the story you'd prefer to be the case?

The link and quote you provided did not specify what type of offers they were. So they could have been PTO's, like the Philly offer, in which case Khan would still be correct.

I recognize you weren't in favor of Cleary or Bickell, full credit to you on that. But we've been discussing something different-- as you know (and knew at that time) the discussion of what will/would happen and what should happen are quite different. And in the "Odds Dan Cleary is re-signed" post you didn't have trouble citing reasons why "it's pretty close to a sure thing that cleary gets extended for 1-3 years". For that reason and others I've cited above, I think trying to reinterpret history with some kind of pity narrative seems a bit of stretch.

That's just me understanding how Ken Holland operates. That has nothing to do with thinking Cleary should be brought back, which I don't, and have firmly been against for years.

 

[abbbaron]

The link and quote you provided did not specify what type of offers they were. So they could have been PTO's, like the Philly offer, in which case Khan would still be correct.

Give it another look: Holland said "he's been offered three-year contracts". I didn't know 3yr PTO agreements can masquerade as contracts.

That's just me understanding how Ken Holland operates. That has nothing to do with thinking Cleary should be brought back, which I don't, and have firmly been against for years.

That's how I understood it. But, in light of what you were saying then and that Holland reportedly made Clearly at least two offers going into free agency that summer, it seems like a bit of a contortionist act to spin things as Holland 1.) being the only idiot big enough to think Cleary was worth any sort of contract deal, and 2.) only gave him the eventual contract as a matter of welfare

 

[Frk It]

1.) being the only idiot big enough to think Cleary was worth any sort of contract deal, and 2.) only gave him the eventual contract as a matter of welfare

What other GM would have given Cleary 2.5 million dollars last year? Because I really don't see that happening anywhere else.

So yes, I think Holland for whatever reason looks at Dan Cleary differently than the rest of the league does.

 

[abbbaron]

What other GM would have given Cleary 2.5 million dollars last year? Because I really don't see that happening anywhere else.

So yes, I think Holland for whatever reason looks at Dan Cleary differently than the rest of the league does.

Well 1mil of that was bonus from the original 2013 deal. Small consolation

The subsequent deals are a different story. I've only been referring to 2013 and that context.

 

[Frk It]

Well 1mil of that was bonus from the original 2013 deal. Small consolation

The subsequent deals are a different story. I've only been referring to 2013 and that context.

Whatever, it's Draft day. Rather talk about the Draft than the pinky promise Holland and his BFF made 2 years ago.

 

[Henkka]

So when Babcock is gone, UFAs will fall to Detroit again and new guys are already praising Blashill.

Babs was the UFA kryptonite?

 

[Vladdy84]

So when Babcock is gone, UFAs will fall to Detroit again and new guys are already praising Blashill.

Babs was the UFA kryptonite?

I wouldn't go that far. But I would say Babcock at the helm was a deterrent for veteran free agents.

I firmly believe a lot of players on the Wings will be re-energized with the change behind the bench. And players like Jurco, Smith and Pookie with thrive.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

So when Babcock is gone, UFAs will fall to Detroit again and new guys are already praising Blashill.

Babs was the UFA kryptonite?

Truth is, nobody involved in the Red Wings other than Ken Holland sounds sad to have seen Babcock go. The players very tactfully implied that they welcomed Blashill. Now UFAs are expressing optimism too.

I think you're right. There might have been a bit of a deterrent for UFAs. I'm sure it was something like: Babcock is going to work you half to death, yell at you for every little thing, make you sacrifice personal numbers to buy into the system, and then on top of it Detroit doesn't have the pieces to win anyway. And if you do sign and you don't win, it could be spun as your fault because Babcock and Detroit have such untouchable reputations.

 

[Flowah]

Well since this is sort of a Cleary thread, I think we can safely say he's gone for good.

Two years too late, but thank Jesus.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

So when Babcock is gone, UFAs will fall to Detroit again and new guys are already praising Blashill.

Babs was the UFA kryptonite?

I was thinking the same thing .

Who knows really. Could just be a coincidence.

It's definitely interesting though that Green specifically mentioned that he's heard Blash is a good coach.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

Well since this is sort of a Cleary thread, I think we can safely say he's gone for good.

Two years too late, but thank Jesus.

I thought they were still going to sign him, but burry him in the minors (or is that what you were implying?).

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Well since this is sort of a Cleary thread, I think we can safely say he's gone for good.

Two years too late, but thank Jesus.

Richards took Weiss' roster spot.

I would hold off on the parade for a little bit longer.