Post-Game Talk: Babcock and "Gud Pros" let Leafs down AGAIN!

[GoonieFace]

I want people to have some perspective before we start turning on this team, calling it the proverbial 18 wheeler

CORE GUYS:
Matthews - 20 years old - 8 career playoff games
Marner - 20 years old - 8 career playoff games
Nylander - 21 years old - 8 career playoff games
Kapanen- 21 years old - 8 career playoff games
Brown - 23 years old - 8 career playoff games
Rielly - 24 years old - 8 career playoff games.
Hyman - 25 years old - 8 career playoff games

additional core:
Dermott - 20 years old - 2 career playoff games
Johnsson - 22 years old - 2 career playoff games


And there's still young guys like Grundstrom and Liljegren who are going to make the team in the next few years.

It's kind of the opposite for Boston, aside from Pasta and McAvoy, their main guys are veterans who have won a cup, been to finals, and/or had long runs (Marchand, Bergeren, Krug, Krejci, Chara).

Our core guys leadings are still learning; it's unfortunate that inexperience is showing, but thats the painful shortcomings of a team who is led by 20 year olds who have played 8 playoff games or less. Even the vets lack experience, aside from Marleau, Hainsay, Andersen, Plekanec and Polak) no NHL vet has been the 2nd round (JVR did it too but that was like 10 years ago). Compared to Bruins who had 10 in their lineup; majority who are the go to guys. But luckily these 2 games have been a learning experience for them, hopefully they learn fast and come up with a better effort and result for game 3.

Stop making sense, there’s no room for your kind here

 

[Suntouchable13]

I would feel a lot more comfortable if we had guys that played like Perry and Getz

Yea, I don't feel confident. But I am willing to give them a chance, let's see how they do at home.

 

[Blufreezy]

I would feel a lot more comfortable if we had guys that played like Perry and Getz

Perry and Getzlaf are also down 0-2.

The world isn't burning.

The list I saw was outdated, but it showed Boston did it in 2010 vs the Flyers

 

[Suntouchable13]

Perry and Getzlaf are also down 0-2.

The world isn't burning.

The list I saw was outdated, but it showed Boston did it in 2010 vs the Flyers

Boston also did it in the 2011 SC Final.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I just looked it up, Anaheim came back from being down 0-2 to the Oilers last year. They lost the first 2 games at home.

Truth is, if the leafs win next game, they’re just down 2-1. Wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

But it’s the WAY they lost the first two games. It was one of the most pathetic displays I’ve seen in a long long time.

I’m at the point where I’m not sure I can ever again route for a group of people that are capable of such cowardice and gutlessness. Right now I just feel embarrassed for ever allowing myself to be a fan of such disgraceful people.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I want people to have some perspective before we start turning on this team, calling it the proverbial 18 wheeler

CORE GUYS:
Matthews - 20 years old - 8 career playoff games
Marner - 20 years old - 8 career playoff games
Nylander - 21 years old - 8 career playoff games
Kapanen- 21 years old - 8 career playoff games
Brown - 23 years old - 8 career playoff games
Rielly - 24 years old - 8 career playoff games.
Hyman - 25 years old - 8 career playoff games

additional core:
Dermott - 20 years old - 2 career playoff games
Johnsson - 22 years old - 2 career playoff games


And there's still young guys like Grundstrom and Liljegren who are going to make the team in the next few years.

It's kind of the opposite for Boston, aside from Pasta and McAvoy, their main guys are veterans who have won a cup, been to finals, and/or had long runs (Marchand, Bergeren, Krug, Krejci, Chara).

Our core guys leadings are still learning; it's unfortunate that inexperience is showing, but thats the painful shortcomings of a team who is led by 20 year olds who have played 8 playoff games or less. Even the vets lack experience, aside from Marleau, Hainsay, Andersen, Plekanec and Polak) no NHL vet has been the 2nd round (JVR did it too but that was like 10 years ago). Compared to Bruins who had 10 in their lineup; majority who are the go to guys. But luckily these 2 games have been a learning experience for them, hopefully they learn fast and come up with a better effort and result for game 3.

In my opinion, does not excuse the performance.

 

[francis246]

Truth is, if the leafs win next game, they’re just down 2-1. Wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

But it’s the WAY they lost the first two games. It was one of the most pathetic displays I’ve seen in a long long time.

I’m at the point where I’m not sure I can ever again route for a group of people that are capable of such cowardice and gutlessness. Right now I just feel embarrassed for ever allowing myself to be a fan of such disgraceful people.

lol holy shit, this thread is gold. the players are disgraceful because they have been losing to the better team? It's not like they gave up, Boston has just been 1000% better. Boston is making no mistakes and the speed and breakouts they've been having is outta this world.

 

[eddieO]

he's done wayyyy too well. we won 2 playoff games last year and now we're right back in the playoffs again. no other team has this kind of success

I know you don't like Babcock, I would wager most of your posts are knocks against him. But the fact remains he took a dead-last team and got them to play well enough to make the playoffs twice. If you want to say that's all on the players, cool. That's your right.

Then this debacle is all on the players too. You can't have it both ways.

Criticize the players, and them only. Since the coach has no effect on them.

This embarrassment is going to force them to make changes. I have a strong feeling people here like yourself are not going to like the changes that are about to come. I'll give you a hint, you'll see less softness in the lineup.

 

[GodEmperor]

We have gotten absolutely embarrassed and just a couple of players have shown any pride, and just a couple of players have played to any kind of standard. The whole lineup have been dreadful, and you argue that they should avoid almost all blame because the coach played the wrong player in the wrong spot, even though he wasn't the one victimized?

That's absurd.


Yeah. Babcock being the plug that he is, decided to keep together a PP that have converted at over 40%, one of the best stretches of PP hockey in years.

Of course, he should have burned it to the ground. If not for Komarov, they would have had 80% eh?


Which is exactly what he's done. Perhaps you should pay attention.


You should learn what elementary means, because it's not what you think. If Babcock forgot to play left wingers in his lineup, that would be an elementary mistake. If he put the goaltender at center and the PP coach in goal, that would be elementary mistakes.

And who said it's just about the second year players? The whole team shares the blame, including the coach, as the whole team has performed so bad that they are the laughing stock of the league right now. Their play has been absolutely dreadful, and absolutely chock full of brutal mistakes.

None of that is on anybody but themselves. Just like Babcock's mistakes are on nobody but himself. You are going to some ridiculous lengths here to exonerate them from any responsibility.

Yeah and Hyman was demoted, but according to your Babcock can't do wrong logic, we need to hold 20 year olds accountable and not 50 year old cup winning and gold medal winning coaches.

And maybe if Babcock had the logic to ice his BEST lineup at all times, it wouldn't be that bad. Also hilarious you get mad at people using hyperbole, but you do the same.

Calling the lineup "dreadful" is a vast overstatement, the game was tied 1-1 halfway through the first game, we were dominating the 1st game and even almost tied it up despite Komarov's awful penalty. The common theme though is:

1. People succeeding like Kapanen who Babcock refused to play at the start of the year or even Hyman and not being rewarded for it, meanwhile guys that are objectively awful like Komarov being given free reign to be awful without consequence.

>Yeah. Babcock being the plug that he is, decided to keep together a PP that have converted at over 40%, one of the best stretches of PP hockey in years.

Please don't tell me you are not getting the argument, you do realize that you can succeed IN SPITE of what you do right? You also realize that regular season/=playoffs where 50% of the league is really bad? The PP is awful and maybe if Babcock had the common sense to double shift Mitch or JVR in place of Komarov, it would be better, actually it would for sure be better because Komarov is an offensive dead end and he makes our PP 4 on 4, even Martin would be better because he's not a little daisy like old man withered Komarov is now.

No he hasn't, if he did why was Komarov on the PP at all?

Maybe you should learn what it means, although it's obvious you can't argue with what I'm saying so you're doing gotcha arguments "HURR DURR, YOU DIDN'T USE THE WORD ELEMENTARY IN THE WAY I WANTED IT USED, I'M GONNA PRETEND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAID."

Where have I exonerated the team? Again hyperbolic nonsense claims, the team has been bad and Babcock has put them in an awful position to succeed. The whole point is that despite the team's bad play, the games could've been MUCH closer than they were were it not for Babcock's stupidity, game 1 got away because our PP sucked which is kinda what happens when you absolutely INSIST on playing two lines (the top one including an AHL tier player) and not just double shifting your best players and the 2nd game got away because of Komarov's awful penalty which came from him being put on the top line which he has NO business being on.

Here are your arguments:
Ignorance of Babcock's awful moves (demoting Hyman, promoting Komarov, playing Komarov at all, not pushing Kap or Andre up top, not double shifting our best players)
Completely misusing data citing SEASON statistics as if they should 100% translate in the playoffs
Not understanding basic logic in that you can succeed DESPITE what you do sometimes and not because of it (i.e our PP and Komarov)
Word games which is hilarious that you're trying to give native English speakers English lessons when you know exactly what I meant
Strawmanning of me excusing the team when I merely PRIORITIZE blame, i.e I'm not going to say "hurr durr, it's all the same, all mistakes are the same, bla bla egalitarian approach" no there are less and more severe mistakes and I can actually trace back to Babcock's mistakes DIRECTLY costing us

Your only real argument would be to say that I don't know what would happen if Babcock did what I said he should do which is literally a trillion times better than the absurd paragraph you posted which underscores and abdicates a STANLEY CUP/GOLD MEDAL WINNING coaches responsibility to his team to do extremely simple things like icing the best lineup, being flexible and not being dogmatic.

 

[eddieO]

We have gotten absolutely embarrassed and just a couple of players have shown any pride, and just a couple of players have played to any kind of standard. The whole lineup have been dreadful, and you argue that they should avoid almost all blame because the coach played the wrong player in the wrong spot, even though he wasn't the one victimized?

That's absurd.


Yeah. Babcock being the plug that he is, decided to keep together a PP that have converted at over 40%, one of the best stretches of PP hockey in years.

Of course, he should have burned it to the ground. If not for Komarov, they would have had 80% eh?


Which is exactly what he's done. Perhaps you should pay attention.


You should learn what elementary means, because it's not what you think. If Babcock forgot to play left wingers in his lineup, that would be an elementary mistake. If he put the goaltender at center and the PP coach in goal, that would be elementary mistakes.

And who said it's just about the second year players? The whole team shares the blame, including the coach, as the whole team has performed so bad that they are the laughing stock of the league right now. Their play has been absolutely dreadful, and absolutely chock full of brutal mistakes.

None of that is on anybody but themselves. Just like Babcock's mistakes are on nobody but himself. You are going to some ridiculous lengths here to exonerate them from any responsibility.

These are good rebuttals but the ignore list is a lot easier in my opinion, Nith. People are flying off the handle left and right on these boards. Most of what they say is nonsense as you have highlighted.

The fact is the players need to step up. That's first and paramount. They need to show heart and tenacity.

Babcock needs to be better too in my opinion. And especially Andersen. He needs to find that Vezina gear if we're going to have a chance. The goals he's been letting in are weak and deflate the team.

 

[PromisedLand]

Zaitsev is PISSED OFF and taking responsibility. Didn't like his game but LOVE his attitude.

 

[thewave]

Yea, I don't feel confident. But I am willing to give them a chance, let's see how they do at home.

Maybe they will get the message. I hope so. It's hard watching a team you invested time in following do what they did game 1 and 2.

 

[IPS]

Who was the most recent team that came back from 0-2 down to win their series? Anyone know off the top of their heads?

Usually it's veteran battle-tested teams who come back from 2-0 deficits.

We are severely up against the odds.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I know you don't like Babcock, I would wager most of your posts are knocks against him. But the fact remains he took a dead-last team and got them to play well enough to make the playoffs twice. If you want to say that's all on the players, cool. That's your right.

Then this debacle is all on the players too. You can't have it both ways.

Criticize the players, and them only. Since the coach has no effect on them.

This embarrassment is going to force them to make changes. I have a strong feeling people here like yourself are not going to like the changes that are about to come. I'll give you a hint, you'll see less softness in the lineup.

I do like him, but I think he gets way too much credit. To be fair, I think he also gets too much criticism when things don't go well.

You're 100% right though. I'm worried we'll have a knee jerk reaction and try to inject toughness to solve a problem that really has nothing to do with it.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

lol holy ****, this thread is gold. the players are disgraceful because they have been losing to the better team? It's not like they gave up, Boston has just been 1000% better. Boston is making no mistakes and the speed and breakouts they've been having is outta this world.

I’m talking about all the cowering and avoidance of checks. It looks like men vs boys out there. It’s a level of cowardice and heartlessness that is flat out vile

 

[thewave]

I’m talking about all the cowering and avoidance of checks. It looks like men vs boys out there. It’s a level of cowardice and heartlessness that is flat out vile

There is probably nothing more infuriating to sports fans than when your team doesn't compete two games in a row. That just can't ever happen.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Usually it's veteran battle-tested teams who come back from 2-0 deficits.

We are severely up against the odds.

I think both games in Toronto will be closely fought and anybody’s game. It’s not too far fetched that we come out with both wins.

But I think if the leafs played 50 more playoff games in Boston, we’d lose all 50 in just as embarrassing a fashion.

 

[Nineteen67]

Minny and Winnipeg are playing too violent. Are they not aware it’s the playoffs and there are casual fans that won’t like that type of play.

 

[Antropovsky]

Not surprised... this team is still two years from being a playoff team. We have a bandaid group of veterans, who aren't capable of playing playoff hockey.

JVR plays a game of don't get hit, and don't throw a hit... Bozak is better than JVR but still in the back of his mind you get the impression he feels the same way. Gardiner... see JVR. Kadri has his strengths... but he doesn't show emotion until someone pisses him off, and in that case... he regularly does something stupid. Komarov hasn't been the fearless pest he used to be in years.... etc etc.

Kapanen may have been our best player last night... he showed the biggest set of marbles on the team, when he sprayed Rask. He also was dominant with his speed and tenacity, and Johnsson looked great too.

This team is on the right track...I look forward to seeing more of our young leafs grow up in this series and hopefully win a few games in the process... but we won't be successful until the likes of Dermott, Matthews, Kapanen, Johnsson, Marner etc are our "veteran group".

Excited for the future... and that includes waving bye to JVR.

 

[GodEmperor]

Here's a fun fact I pulled up,

Auston, Willie and Mitch played 18, 17 and 16 minutes pg,

look at other big 3 forwards

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel= 21, 19, 19
McDavid, Drai RNH=22, 19, 18
Marchand, Bergy, Pasta=20, 20, 18
Kuch, Stamkos, Point=20, 19, 20
Barkov, Trochek, Huberdeau= 22, 22, 19
Johanssen, Forsberg, Arvidsson= 19, 17, 18
Wheeler, Scheifle, Laine= 20, 21, 17
Staal, Granlund, Koivu= 18, 19, 18
Mac, Landeskog, Ranta= 20, 20, 19
Ovie, Backstrom, Kuzzy=20, 19, 20
Giroux, Couturier, Voracek= 20, 22, 20
Panarin, PLD, Atkinsson= 20, 17, 19
Hall, Hischer, Palimieri= 19, 16, 17
Rackell, Getzlaf, Perry= 19, 22, 18
Pavelski, Couture, Hertl= 19, 19, 18
Kopitar, Brown, Toffoli=22, 20, 16

So basically, our best guys are 17/17 with playoff teams+ the Oilers when it comes to how much we use our youngest and best guys. Basically if you read the TOI, you'd think our top 3 are closer to Hall, Palmieri and Hischer than McDavid, Drai and RNH. The top 3 for the totality of teams are around 19.5 minutes on average whereas our top 3 average 17, a difference of nearly 15%.

 

[MR4]

I know you don't like Babcock, I would wager most of your posts are knocks against him. But the fact remains he took a dead-last team and got them to play well enough to make the playoffs twice. If you want to say that's all on the players, cool. That's your right.

Then this debacle is all on the players too. You can't have it both ways.

Criticize the players, and them only. Since the coach has no effect on them.

This embarrassment is going to force them to make changes. I have a strong feeling people here like yourself are not going to like the changes that are about to come. I'll give you a hint, you'll see less softness in the lineup.

"This is a coach that took a dead last team to the 8 seed the next year!"

"The coach had no effect on the team finishing dead last!"

Babcock focusing on grinding with the Bruins instead of focusing on our optimal speed/skill/transition game is what got us into this hole.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I was looking through the Bruins forum pgt, and they seem to think they were outplayed for 40 minutes, but that our goalies played like blind drunk psychopaths.

Funny that hardly anybody is taking about goaltending here... The two fan bases have very different views of the game.

 

[thewave]

"This is a coach that took a dead last team to the 8 seed the next year!"

"The coach had no effect on the team finishing dead last!"

Babcock focusing on grinding with the Bruins instead of focusing on our optimal speed/skill/transition game is what got us into this hole.

You got it, there are some other little details he dropped the ball on too.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

These are good rebuttals but the ignore list is a lot easier in my opinion, Nith. People are flying off the handle left and right on these boards. Most of what they say is nonsense as you have highlighted.

The fact is the players need to step up. That's first and paramount. They need to show heart and tenacity.

Babcock needs to be better too in my opinion. And especially Andersen. He needs to find that Vezina gear if we're going to have a chance. The goals he's been letting in are weak and deflate the team.

Good thoughtful post. Agree with everything except use the "ignore" button. People have differing opinions on what has happened and who are to blame. Listening to others' opinions sometimes leads to enlightenment if you keep an open mind. Some posts can be filled with hyperbole but most are fans showing their displeasure and disappointment thus far.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I was looking through the Bruins forum pgt, and they seem to think they were outplayed for 40 minutes, but that our goalies played like blind drunk psychopaths.

Funny that hardly anybody is taking about goaltending here... The two fan bases have very different views of the game.

The Leafs did outplay Boston for like 40 minutes. Leafs goaltending was bad, Boston were very clinical with their chances and Leafs couldn't get a bounce to go their way.

I think that performance was much better than the previous. Still bad and many of the big players didn't show up. Rielly was just terrible as were the line changes leading to 2 on 1s.