Confirmed with Link: [AZ/PHI] Shayne Gostisbehere, a 2022 2nd, and a 2022 7th from PHI for one US dollar

SpaceCoyote

Registered User
Jul 10, 2013
597
371
Wasting away
It's mostly a joke. A take on the brain meme.

I'm actually a Maloney-stan, one of the few around here. But Chayka improved on Maloney's asset management in this area, in a non-flat cap era. Armstrong's maybe isn't purely a value play (IE nabbing Chychrun as undervalued for slot money in the draft is better value wise than grabbing a bunch of 2nds) but it is really good asset management. Like supremely good.

We've likely filled out our prospect pool aside from high end talent for basically nothing. It's to be commended.

For the era I agree it's beneficial given our current cap position (Chayka induced massive UFA block), however, I struggle to understand why Seattle didn't take this deal. Francis vs McCrimmon seems to be a major difference maker in the Chayka vs Armstrong saga given this trade.

P.S. Mr.Bungle is a personal favorite of mine...
 

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,136
9,180
As someone who watched 90% of philly games last year, this is not far from the truth. He was bad to start the year. After the waivers incident something clicked. He looked like the Ghost of old.
If he was the Ghost of old they probably would have kept him, or at least not have to pay someone to take his contract. Hope he rebounds and has a good year.
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
54,930
14,652
PHX
For the era I agree it's beneficial given our current cap position (Chayka induced massive UFA block), however, I struggle to understand why Seattle didn't take this deal. Francis vs McCrimmon seems to be a major difference maker in the Chayka vs Armstrong saga given this trade.

P.S. Mr.Bungle is a personal favorite of mine...

Ghost doesn't have any flip/trade value and he'd be Seattle's #7 at best. They also have cap room to spend, so they aren't done yet. Just not worth the hassle.
 

hayen

Registered User
Apr 7, 2017
1,203
366
Ghost will be a nice addition. He showed his original form last year while playing through a lot of negativity. Even after he played well, he'd be removed from the lineup. A lot of head games in Philly.
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
12,634
29,047
Lucy the Elephant's Belly
Grats on the steal.

He's the most underrated player in the f***ing sport. Why the Flyers spent the last several years sabotaging one of their top 3 defensemen and cratering the value of their own asset will forever be a mystery to me. Ghost had a tendency to tell the truth, admitting to the press that he stopped listening to Hakstol, for example, which by the way, no one should listen to Hakstol if they want to win hockey games, and I suspect that had something to do with it. However, he seemed well-liked by the room.

First of all, there's a massive league-wide misconception that Ghost can't play D. Ghost is in fact a fine defenseman. He has flaws to his game, for example, he will always get outmuscled along the walls or in front of the net and those seem to be the only thing HockeyGuy TM cares about, but he does a ton of shit well. His defensive game is predicated on anticipation and his agility. He defends the blue line really well, he was probably the Flyers best defenseman defending 2 on 1s, he's a high IQ player who's great at puck retrieval and excellent on the breakout, able to effortlessly skate or pass it out. He's not even soft, despite what the neanderthal portion of the Flyers fanbase thinks. Ghost will occasionally pull out a hard hit that impacts possession, as opposed to a guy like Hagg who racks up "hits" bumping guys every shift behind the net long after the puck has already been moved.

Offensively, he's great. He's not just a PP weapon with a heavy shot, though he's that as well. He sees the ice well and can distribute or assertively jump up into the play when appropriate to attack. Injuries robbed him of some of speed but he still uses his agility to shake guys to open up a lane, though less than in the past, and he's a freaking shortstop knocking down line drives out there at the point. Seriously, I've never seen anything like his ability to literally lay out to knock down hard clearing attempts to keep the play alive, it's uncanny.

One of the insane things that happened 2 ago is that Ghost was battling Robert f***ing Hagg for ice time - maybe the worst defenseman in the league - and when Ghost played, he was tethered to bottom 6ers, while Hagg was strapped to guys like Giroux and Couturier, and then Ghost was blasted for his offense falling off. Or like how Giroux, Voracek, Ghost was one of the most dangerous OT combos in the league for several years running, and then the Flyers stopped using it and never tried it again. Or how AV & Michel Therrien gave Provorov Ghost's 1PP spot for 1.5 years, despite the fact that it was not f***ing working, only to reluctantly give in late last season, and then suddenly the PP was functional again.

I honestly hope your coaches don't HockeyGuy TM him to death like the Flyers have for the last several years and recognize he's a legit top 4 defender well worth his contract.
 

YotesFan47

Registered User
Jun 16, 2012
4,165
2,080
Phoenix, Arizona USA
I'm oddly excited to have him. He and Bush will probably make a nice pair. I'm curious how we plan to fill in the other RD spots where we find a better partner for him. I would imagine pairing him with a pretty good two way guy could really bring out the best in him.
 

BlackandOrange

Registered User
Jul 12, 2018
247
349
Breadalbane, PE
Just absolutely everything is bang on. Bill Armstrong putting in work. Best of luck on the season.

Grats on the steal.

He's the most underrated player in the f***ing sport. Why the Flyers spent the last several years sabotaging one of their top 3 defensemen and cratering the value of their own asset will forever be a mystery to me. Ghost had a tendency to tell the truth, admitting to the press that he stopped listening to Hakstol, for example, which by the way, no one should listen to Hakstol if they want to win hockey games, and I suspect that had something to do with it. However, he seemed well-liked by the room.

First of all, there's a massive league-wide misconception that Ghost can't play D. Ghost is in fact a fine defenseman. He has flaws to his game, for example, he will always get outmuscled along the walls or in front of the net and those seem to be the only thing HockeyGuy TM cares about, but he does a ton of shit well. His defensive game is predicated on anticipation and his agility. He defends the blue line really well, he was probably the Flyers best defenseman defending 2 on 1s, he's a high IQ player who's great at puck retrieval and excellent on the breakout, able to effortlessly skate or pass it out. He's not even soft, despite what the neanderthal portion of the Flyers fanbase thinks. Ghost will occasionally pull out a hard hit that impacts possession, as opposed to a guy like Hagg who racks up "hits" bumping guys every shift behind the net long after the puck has already been moved.

Offensively, he's great. He's not just a PP weapon with a heavy shot, though he's that as well. He sees the ice well and can distribute or assertively jump up into the play when appropriate to attack. Injuries robbed him of some of speed but he still uses his agility to shake guys to open up a lane, though less than in the past, and he's a freaking shortstop knocking down line drives out there at the point. Seriously, I've never seen anything like his ability to literally lay out to knock down hard clearing attempts to keep the play alive, it's uncanny.

One of the insane things that happened 2 ago is that Ghost was battling Robert f***ing Hagg for ice time - maybe the worst defenseman in the league - and when Ghost played, he was tethered to bottom 6ers, while Hagg was strapped to guys like Giroux and Couturier, and then Ghost was blasted for his offense falling off. Or like how Giroux, Voracek, Ghost was one of the most dangerous OT combos in the league for several years running, and then the Flyers stopped using it and never tried it again. Or how AV & Michel Therrien gave Provorov Ghost's 1PP spot for 1.5 years, despite the fact that it was not f***ing working, only to reluctantly give in late last season, and then suddenly the PP was functional again.

I honestly hope your coaches don't HockeyGuy TM him to death like the Flyers have for the last several years and recognize he's a legit top 4 defender well worth his contract.
 

Grimes

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jan 5, 2012
8,540
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Tippet's Doghouse
Grats on the steal.

He's the most underrated player in the f***ing sport. Why the Flyers spent the last several years sabotaging one of their top 3 defensemen and cratering the value of their own asset will forever be a mystery to me. Ghost had a tendency to tell the truth, admitting to the press that he stopped listening to Hakstol, for example, which by the way, no one should listen to Hakstol if they want to win hockey games, and I suspect that had something to do with it. However, he seemed well-liked by the room.

First of all, there's a massive league-wide misconception that Ghost can't play D. Ghost is in fact a fine defenseman. He has flaws to his game, for example, he will always get outmuscled along the walls or in front of the net and those seem to be the only thing HockeyGuy TM cares about, but he does a ton of shit well. His defensive game is predicated on anticipation and his agility. He defends the blue line really well, he was probably the Flyers best defenseman defending 2 on 1s, he's a high IQ player who's great at puck retrieval and excellent on the breakout, able to effortlessly skate or pass it out. He's not even soft, despite what the neanderthal portion of the Flyers fanbase thinks. Ghost will occasionally pull out a hard hit that impacts possession, as opposed to a guy like Hagg who racks up "hits" bumping guys every shift behind the net long after the puck has already been moved.

Offensively, he's great. He's not just a PP weapon with a heavy shot, though he's that as well. He sees the ice well and can distribute or assertively jump up into the play when appropriate to attack. Injuries robbed him of some of speed but he still uses his agility to shake guys to open up a lane, though less than in the past, and he's a freaking shortstop knocking down line drives out there at the point. Seriously, I've never seen anything like his ability to literally lay out to knock down hard clearing attempts to keep the play alive, it's uncanny.

One of the insane things that happened 2 ago is that Ghost was battling Robert f***ing Hagg for ice time - maybe the worst defenseman in the league - and when Ghost played, he was tethered to bottom 6ers, while Hagg was strapped to guys like Giroux and Couturier, and then Ghost was blasted for his offense falling off. Or like how Giroux, Voracek, Ghost was one of the most dangerous OT combos in the league for several years running, and then the Flyers stopped using it and never tried it again. Or how AV & Michel Therrien gave Provorov Ghost's 1PP spot for 1.5 years, despite the fact that it was not f***ing working, only to reluctantly give in late last season, and then suddenly the PP was functional again.

I honestly hope your coaches don't HockeyGuy TM him to death like the Flyers have for the last several years and recognize he's a legit top 4 defender well worth his contract.

Just absolutely everything is bang on. Bill Armstrong putting in work. Best of luck on the season.

When you guys release Ghost jerseys. Let me know.

Thanks in advance.

Love to hear all of this, especially all that insight mja. I remember how jaw dropping he was when he first entered the league, if we can get 60% of that I'll be stoked.

Always have a soft spot for the Flyers, hope you guys start putting it all together.
 
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Gwyddbwyll

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
11,252
469
Slots in perfectly behind Chychrun. One of the biggest holes caused by trading OEL was finding a guy who has the skills and experience to handle the puck so it's a great pre-emptive move.

I'll be surprised if Ghost can carry Bush as a second pairing though - even Chychrun couldn't do that. Hopefully we can find two better stay at home partners for the top 4.
 
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RABBIT

Years of my life w you f*cks only to get relocated
Grats on the steal.

He's the most underrated player in the f***ing sport. Why the Flyers spent the last several years sabotaging one of their top 3 defensemen and cratering the value of their own asset will forever be a mystery to me. Ghost had a tendency to tell the truth, admitting to the press that he stopped listening to Hakstol, for example, which by the way, no one should listen to Hakstol if they want to win hockey games, and I suspect that had something to do with it. However, he seemed well-liked by the room.

First of all, there's a massive league-wide misconception that Ghost can't play D. Ghost is in fact a fine defenseman. He has flaws to his game, for example, he will always get outmuscled along the walls or in front of the net and those seem to be the only thing HockeyGuy TM cares about, but he does a ton of shit well. His defensive game is predicated on anticipation and his agility. He defends the blue line really well, he was probably the Flyers best defenseman defending 2 on 1s, he's a high IQ player who's great at puck retrieval and excellent on the breakout, able to effortlessly skate or pass it out. He's not even soft, despite what the neanderthal portion of the Flyers fanbase thinks. Ghost will occasionally pull out a hard hit that impacts possession, as opposed to a guy like Hagg who racks up "hits" bumping guys every shift behind the net long after the puck has already been moved.

Offensively, he's great. He's not just a PP weapon with a heavy shot, though he's that as well. He sees the ice well and can distribute or assertively jump up into the play when appropriate to attack. Injuries robbed him of some of speed but he still uses his agility to shake guys to open up a lane, though less than in the past, and he's a freaking shortstop knocking down line drives out there at the point. Seriously, I've never seen anything like his ability to literally lay out to knock down hard clearing attempts to keep the play alive, it's uncanny.

One of the insane things that happened 2 ago is that Ghost was battling Robert f***ing Hagg for ice time - maybe the worst defenseman in the league - and when Ghost played, he was tethered to bottom 6ers, while Hagg was strapped to guys like Giroux and Couturier, and then Ghost was blasted for his offense falling off. Or like how Giroux, Voracek, Ghost was one of the most dangerous OT combos in the league for several years running, and then the Flyers stopped using it and never tried it again. Or how AV & Michel Therrien gave Provorov Ghost's 1PP spot for 1.5 years, despite the fact that it was not f***ing working, only to reluctantly give in late last season, and then suddenly the PP was functional again.

I honestly hope your coaches don't HockeyGuy TM him to death like the Flyers have for the last several years and recognize he's a legit top 4 defender well worth his contract.

thank you for the breakdown! Hope you guys land Jones or Eichel
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
Hard to understand people are not grasping that the market for cap space is higher in the flat cap era....

Exactly, the price looks different because of the flat cap. If this were not a flat cap, Ghost probably has a C level prospect and 4th round pick sent our way for a cheap-ish return, like a 2022 5th.
 

Bonsai Tree

Turning a new leaf
Feb 2, 2014
9,234
4,558
God only knows how much we need somebody who's excellent on puck retrieval or the break out. If that's all he can do well then he's well worth the second round draft choice we were forced to accept in order to acquire Ghost. :sarcasm:
 

The Feckless Puck

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Oct 26, 2006
18,544
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God only knows how much we need somebody who's excellent on puck retrieval or the break out.

We've been saying around here for years that we needed Yandle back for this exact reason. So, it turns out, we get a younger, more defensively responsible Yandle type and we got paid to do it.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
97,459
46,372
A Rockwellian Pleasantville
Exactly, the price looks different because of the flat cap. If this were not a flat cap, Ghost probably has a C level prospect and 4th round pick sent our way for a cheap-ish return, like a 2022 5th.
BA wanted Gostisbehere in January when he was being shopped. Rather than give up draft capital like his dumabass predecessor, he was patient. Then when Gostisbehere was on waivers, he didn’t claim him. He was patient. Then when the time was right, he got him, along with a free 2nd rounder. It’s not just the market that made the difference, it was the man.

Ever seen the very dumb old movie “Colors” starring Robert Duvall and Sean Penn?

There's two bulls standing on top of a mountain. The younger one says to the older one: "Hey pop, let's say we run down there and f*** one of them cows". The older one says: "No son. Lets walk down and f*** 'em all".

The Cow market isn’t everything. The Bull matters.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
BA wanted Gostisbehere in January when he was being shopped. Rather than give up draft capital like his dumabass predecessor, he was patient. Then when Gostisbehere was on waivers, he didn’t claim him. He was patient. Then when the time was right, he got him, along with a free 2nd rounder. It’s not just the market that made the difference, it was the man.

Ever seen the very dumb old movie “Colors” starring Robert Duvall and Sean Penn?

There's two bulls standing on top of a mountain. The younger one says to the older one: "Hey pop, let's say we run down there and f*** one of them cows". The older one says: "No son. Lets walk down and f*** 'em all".

The Cow market isn’t everything. The Bull matters.

So, I kind of disagree with the logic. That doesn't disqualify the predecessor from not doing the same thing. Name me a deal where Chayka could have paid a lot less in a trade. I don't see too many. Even the Hall trade. If you trust your ability to draft, then the players you give up can be replaced.

Name a time when draft capital that went way beyond what should be given by our predecessor happened. But, if you want to insert logic that a GM (who may not have even been interested in Ghost) doesn't understand that there are two sides to deals and patience needs to be had, then I don't know. After all, I believe that Chayka had been working avenues on Hall for multiple months. Doing so requires patience as well.

The value of the return is higher because reducing spend for teams is more important now. Teams knew it was a flat cap, and you also have to wait until after expansion draft. Maybe moves are only available if Seattle takes player X instead of player Y. At some point, that will clear up what the value is for the player and yes, the price was high last year. Most, if not all GMs don't operate in the vacuum that is being implied.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
97,459
46,372
A Rockwellian Pleasantville
So, I kind of disagree with the logic. That doesn't disqualify the predecessor from not doing the same thing. Name me a deal where Chayka could have paid a lot less in a trade. I don't see too many. Even the Hall trade. If you trust your ability to draft, then the players you give up can be replaced.

Name a time when draft capital that went way beyond what should be given by our predecessor happened. But, if you want to insert logic that a GM (who may not have even been interested in Ghost) doesn't understand that there are two sides to deals and patience needs to be had, then I don't know. After all, I believe that Chayka had been working avenues on Hall for multiple months. Doing so requires patience as well.

The value of the return is higher because reducing spend for teams is more important now. Teams knew it was a flat cap, and you also have to wait until after expansion draft. Maybe moves are only available if Seattle takes player X instead of player Y. At some point, that will clear up what the value is for the player and yes, the price was high last year. Most, if not all GMs don't operate in the vacuum that is being implied.
John Chayka is the biggest laughing stock of a GM since Mike Milbury. He absolutely ran the franchise into the ground. Yet you love him and defend him at every turn. I’m not sure there’s much we can say to eachother on the topic of Chayka that’s going to amount to an enlightened discussion. But your non-Chayka posts are awesome. I thank you for making real contributions to the discussion and using your big smart brain to share really interesting thoughts on every other subject. :)
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
John Chayka is the biggest laughing stock of a GM since Mike Milbury. He absolutely ran the franchise into the ground. Yet you love him and defend him at every turn. I’m not sure there’s much we can say to eachother on the topic of Chayka that’s going to amount to an enlightened discussion. But your non-Chayka posts are awesome. I thank you for making real contributions to the discussion and using your big smart brain to share really interesting thoughts on every other subject. :)

I think there was a lot more to do than just looking at the NHL level. Our AHL team needed an influx of talent. Chayka recognized the draft as being a way to accomplish that. There were multiple moves made in a similar vein, where cap space can be used as a weapon (moving up for Chychrun). On the NHL side, there was probably some room for improvement. But I also don't believe that going after Hall is wrong. We gave up no current players, and while the expectation of long term signing was on the table, if we continued on the pace of the first 30 games (or better) after adding Hall, then we are in his top 3 choices at season's end.

As much as it would be nice to solve every single issue at once, it is very hard. There were attempts to add enforcement or size with offers to Maroon. That offer was not accepted. He failed at that, but it wasn't without effort. Maybe the concept was got talent on board first. Then, the players to protect others will also come in as we prove the ability to score and win effectively. We have prospects that actually look dangerous and got value for elite talent. Ultimately, he did way more good than harm, but people need to step back and look big picture. Everyone focuses on a final year of poor coaching over the pandemic and a loss of draft picks that still doesn't have a firm answer as to what happened (nearly every article written says nothing about actual measurements, just visuals of athletes in shirts and shorts). If we had been on the forefront of testing prospects and drafting, wouldn't we have gotten it right over the 4 years Chayka was here, lol?
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350

In 5 years, we are going to see more players from 2nd round and beyond picked by Chayka with meaningful professional careers (more meaningful than the picks from the preceeding GM). Mistakes will always occur, but providing talent is an area that can't be seen at this very moment, but in time. That was a key piece that was missing. No prospect depth anywhere (certainly not enough to attempt big deals).

If anyone is holding him responsible for the salary or money - the first person who knew COVID was coming can throw the first stone. The deals look worse because of the flat cap situation, but that could not have beem predicted.
 

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