Confirmed with Link: Avs sign Igor Shvyrev

[Ivan13]

Asks why players prefer Europe, gets answers, says he doesn't care. A surefire way to make people respect your opinion.

 

[Brett44]

Playing in Europe >>> Playing in the AHL. The advantage to the AHL is that you hope to earn your way into the NHL and during the season, it is basically the only path for that. Beyond that... it just doesn't make sense to stick in the AHL for years and years, especially if you are not American or Canadian. I mean we are comparing places like Grand Rapids, Bakersfield, Loveland, Rochester, etc to the likes of the best cities in Europe while getting paid a chunk more. Now we are see some parity in pay starting to creep up for the AHL with a number of players getting 4-500k on their AHL deals or 1 way NHL deals in the 700k range... but still. Work in Cleveland or live in Bern or Stockholm... I'd take a couple hundred thousand less and live in Bern vs living in Cleveland.

And sometimes the players in switzerland van negotiate a contract
500 000 with vous a taxes already paid. It's more than 700 000 in usa.

 

[MarkT]

Asks why players prefer Europe, gets answers, says he doesn't care. A surefire way to make people respect your opinion.

So is talking about people in the third person as if they can't read it. Also, ignoring when someone repeatedly tells you that you're missing their point. I didn't just ask why players prefer Europe - it was in reference specifically to how the Avalanche treat them compared to how European teams treat them. I'm not a moron who thinks living in AHL cities is better than living in major European cities.

 

[henchman21]

The Avs AHL situation is no different than the vast majority of the league. There is always some disconnect and the cities and travel can suck. On the latter, the Avs actually pump more money into their team than a place like Tampa does. The AHL is a pure NHL developmental league, and designed exactly like that. Where many players are 1st or 2nd year pros. Top Euro leagues are top tier professional leagues where a lot of the team will have 4-5++ years of professional experiences. It is natural that there are differences.

 

[UncleRisto]

So is talking about people in the third person as if they can't read it. Also, ignoring when someone repeatedly tells you that you're missing their point. I didn't just ask why players prefer Europe - it was in reference specifically to how the Avalanche treat them compared to how European teams treat them. I'm not a moron who thinks living in AHL cities is better than living in major European cities.

I understand, on some level, your questions concerning the Avs organization (although I don't think they are that warranted), but in context, these issues aren't separate from one another. And if some of these proposed issues were created by a coach no longer in the organization, I'd look for other cases before getting worried.

 

[cgf]

Playing in Europe >>> Playing in the AHL. The advantage to the AHL is that you hope to earn your way into the NHL and during the season, it is basically the only path for that. Beyond that... it just doesn't make sense to stick in the AHL for years and years, especially if you are not American or Canadian. I mean we are comparing places like Grand Rapids, Bakersfield, Loveland, Rochester, etc to the likes of the best cities in Europe while getting paid a chunk more. Now we are see some parity in pay starting to creep up for the AHL with a number of players getting 4-500k on their AHL deals or 1 way NHL deals in the 700k range... but still. Work in Cleveland or live in Bern or Stockholm... I'd take a couple hundred thousand less and live in Bern vs living in Cleveland.

Ugh, Cleveland is just the worst. There's a reason everyone famous from Ohio got famous for their desire to GTFO of Ohio.

 

[RockLobster]

Ugh, Cleveland is just the worst. There's a reason everyone famous from Ohio got famous for their desire to GTFO of Ohio.

ALMOST everyone...because Lebron went back (though is probably leaving again but I'd say that's more due to Gilbert than anything else)

 

[cgf]

So is talking about people in the third person as if they can't read it. Also, ignoring when someone repeatedly tells you that you're missing their point. I didn't just ask why players prefer Europe - it was in reference specifically to how the Avalanche treat them compared to how European teams treat them. I'm not a moron who thinks living in AHL cities is better than living in major European cities.

I think you're missing the point to. Even we were the Leafs or Rangers, and could afford to pamper our AHLers like nobody else, those factors that are outside of the organization's control would still be such major issues. I mean there's no reasonable amount that you can spend on making riding the bus for hours & hours of nothing or rust-belt-decay not suck more than taking quick jet trips through beautiful locales. Unless you're suggesting the team buy the AHL team their own Jet, and things like that, then it's just not possible to treat your AHLers as well as the big (financially solvent) russian teams treat their KHLers. So we'd basically need a wealthy owner who was ready to set a huge pile of cash on fire, with no hope of getting a return on his investment.

 

[cgf]

ALMOST everyone...because Lebron went back (though is probably leaving again but I'd say that's more due to Gilbert than anything else)

Even the guy who went back, became a global name after he had an hour-long special on ESPN to announce that he's GTFO of Ohio!

 

[MarkT]

I think you're missing the point to. Even we were the Leafs or Rangers, and could afford to pamper our AHLers like nobody else, those factors that are outside of the organization's control would still be such major issues. I mean there's no reasonable amount that you can spend on making riding the bus for hours & hours of nothing or rust-belt-decay not suck more than taking quick jet trips through beautiful locales. Unless you're suggesting the team buy the AHL team their own Jet, and things like that, then it's just not possible to treat your AHLers as well as the big (financially solvent) russian teams treat their KHLers. So we'd basically need a wealthy owner who was ready to set a huge pile of cash on fire, with no hope of getting a return on his investment.

I am not arguing the Avs should treat their AHL players as well as Russian teams treat their KHLers. I am simply suggesting that, based on what we keep hearing from disgruntled former Avalanche, that maybe the Avalanche need to start treating their AHLers better than they currently do. And yes, for the last time, I understand that no matter what the Avalanche do, factors outside the team's control might cause our AHL players to become discontent. It would be silly to expect the Avalanche to make life in the AHL better than life in Europe.

I really wish people on this board would take a moment and think to themselves: "Does my idea of the other person's argument assume that they are a drooling moron? And if so, have I misunderstood their argument?". That's not targeted at you cgf, but I think those two questions could help out a lot of people around here.

 

[MarkT]

The Avs AHL situation is no different than the vast majority of the league. There is always some disconnect and the cities and travel can suck. On the latter, the Avs actually pump more money into their team than a place like Tampa does. The AHL is a pure NHL developmental league, and designed exactly like that. Where many players are 1st or 2nd year pros. Top Euro leagues are top tier professional leagues where a lot of the team will have 4-5++ years of professional experiences. It is natural that there are differences.

Thanks for this answer. I have no idea what the real situation is in terms of how much money the Avs invest in their AHL team compared to other teams in the league. Part of my reason for bringing this issue up is that I know people on this board have more information than I do about that kind of thing and someone like yourself would be able to bring it forward to either confirm or deny that the Avs mistreat some of their AHL players.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I am not arguing the Avs should treat their AHL players as well as Russian teams treat their KHLers. I am simply suggesting that, based on what we keep hearing from disgruntled former Avalanche, that maybe the Avalanche need to start treating their AHLers better than they currently do. And yes, for the last time, I understand that no matter what the Avalanche do, factors outside the team's control might cause our AHL players to become discontent. It would be silly to expect the Avalanche to make life in the AHL better than life in Europe.

I really wish people on this board would take a moment and think to themselves: "Does my idea of the other person's argument assume that they are a drooling moron? And if so, have I misunderstood their argument?". That's not targeted at you cgf, but I think those two questions could help out a lot of people around here.

I think they have failed in the past in regards to how they treated some of their AHL guys no doubt heck even some of the guys on the Avs. Having the AHL team right next door should hopefully improve that. Communication for this organization has been an issue for a long long time but it seems to be improving slowly.

 

[UncleRisto]

I really wish people on this board would take a moment and think to themselves: "Does my idea of the other person's argument assume that they are a drooling moron? And if so, have I misunderstood their argument?". That's not targeted at you cgf, but I think those two questions could help out a lot of people around here.

Well, you started from Rendulic, and you started from making the transition for Euro pros easier (below), which is a legitimate concern. You got responded by several posters on a question you made:

Frankly, my wonder is why exactly is life in the AHL so much worse than life in European pro leagues? If I ran the Avalanche, I would make it a priority to have every team in the organization run in an extremely classy, professional manner. I'm not suggesting the players need to be pampered, but players coming from European pro leagues shouldn't be experiencing such a huge shock at the treatment they receive.

Then you started covering bases, as you recognized that part of the argument wasn't worth making.

Now, you had another more relevant point to the Avs actions, which is also a legitimate point. That said, just because people (also other than myself) responded to the specific part in that post, and not your overall point, it doesn't mean you didn't say it. So, have people then misunderstood you, or is it perhaps something else?

Let's hope the proximity of the AHL club will help with some of the other concerns you have. In all honesty, I think the situation last season was very poor with the split affiliate, so I have no question the situation will improve by some.

 

[cgf]

I am not arguing the Avs should treat their AHL players as well as Russian teams treat their KHLers. I am simply suggesting that, based on what we keep hearing from disgruntled former Avalanche, that maybe the Avalanche need to start treating their AHLers better than they currently do. And yes, for the last time, I understand that no matter what the Avalanche do, factors outside the team's control might cause our AHL players to become discontent. It would be silly to expect the Avalanche to make life in the AHL better than life in Europe.

I really wish people on this board would take a moment and think to themselves: "Does my idea of the other person's argument assume that they are a drooling moron? And if so, have I misunderstood their argument?". That's not targeted at you cgf, but I think those two questions could help out a lot of people around here.

I'm actually with you about having concerns with the way the Avs just cast prospects aside once they've given up on them, and also by how quickly the Avs give up on prospects that need to be slow-burned...like a certain Arizona RHD prospect that this board is sick of hearing me bitch about us trading away for Boedker

But I think the disconnect some of us are having with you here is that you seem to be making assumptions about the way the avs treat everyone down there now based on how they treat the dudes that they've given up on (which they do do to readily) + how they used to treat everyone when Dean was still around to f*** everything up. EV's style may not have been conducive to much offence, but he's a much better teacher than Dean was and in generally just a vastly superior coach...so that Everberg's experience back then isn't likely to be one shared by someone like Greer now. Which isn't to say we don't need to continue to strive for better out of our development staff.

They're going to be responsible for polishing far too much talent over these next ~4+ seasons...while our current prospect pool & the metric shit-ton of picks that we have in the 2018 & 2019 drafts filter through...for us to be able to afford to let them be as inept as Chynoweth was when our asset- & prospect-pools was much more barren. So continuing to progress in this area is a really big priority...and why some of us are really intrigued by the idea of having the Eagles staff retained in full now that the organization & Veilliux have parted ways. Sure the eagles staff may not have AHL experience, but they did an amazing job at the ECHL level & Avs-properties who spent time in the ECHL always came back to the A having made big strides (that I can remember). So there's a lot of reason to think that they have a real knack for teaching young talent & nurturing a successful atmosphere...which really helps create a positive learning environment for the kids.


I was just re-iterating the fact that some players who didn't make it, are just always going to be disgruntled about it, no matter what...even if we had a billion to drop on the Eagles facilities, staff & transport to treat them like NHL superstars; and that much more expensive coaching staff did them no wrongs. Every organization has a handful of guys that didn't make it, who have vented their frustrations on the way out; especially with Euros when they first talk to their home-nation's media after returning from NA.

 

[UncleRisto]

Every organization has a handful of guys that didn't make it, who have vented their frustrations on the way out; especially with Euros when they first talk to their home-nation's media after returning from NA.

Yeah, these happen a lot. Not to mention with at least Russian players, there's always some uncertainty in translations/interpretations when these reports do reach North America.

 

[cgf]

Well, you started from Rendulic, and you started from making the transition for Euro pros easier (below), which is a legitimate concern. You got responded by several posters on a question you made:

Then you started covering bases, as you recognized that part of the argument wasn't worth making.

Now, you had another more relevant point to the Avs actions, which is also a legitimate point. That said, just because people (also other than myself) responded to the specific part in that post, and not your overall point, it doesn't mean you didn't say it. So, have people then misunderstood you, or is it perhaps something else?

Let's hope the proximity of the AHL club will help with some of the other concerns you have. In all honesty, I think the situation last season was very poor with the split affiliate, so I have no question the situation will improve by some.

It also doesn't mean that he's wrong to feel like we can be a little pedantic when jumping on specific points, which makes folks feel attacked and like we don't want to engage with the bigger, more relevant/accurate, points that they are bringing up...even if that isn't the case and many of us will happily civily engage on topics with folks, even folks that we are brutal towards on other topics. It's the internet so that's sort of a given, and we're not as bad about it as some parts of the interwebz...or even HF.

...but I can't say he's entirely off base to feel attacked by our tendency to swarm someone who's presenting a minority opinion, especially now that you get alerted every single time someone quotes you to yell at part of your post. Which doesn't say the best things about us...at the very least in cases where the minority opinion holder is just trying to engage on their ideas, and not just trolling/pushing-an-invented-narrative-that-has-been-debunked-and-debated-ad-nausiem-in-search-of-converts or merely looking for people to validate their beliefs.


Maybe I'm just a little extra sensitive to this right now, cause I'm still getting quoted on the polls-board by leafs that are mad at me for arguing that just because Nylander has the decisively more impressive 20- & 21-yo seasons, doesn't mean that a person is automatically wrong for thinking Mittelstadt has more natural-talent/potential

 

[henchman21]

The Avs might have been on to something with Wood... I was as big of tire pumper as anybody here, but Wood's skating is so, so far from a NHL level that it looks unlikely that he will ever amount to anything. He's been reduced to a 5/6/7 role in Tucson this year... and it doesn't look any easier for him next year to gain playing time.

 

[cgf]

Yeah, these happen a lot. Not to mention with at least Russian players, there's always some uncertainty in translations/interpretations when these reports do reach North America.

Holy f*** yes. It's why I always read the originals for players I'm actually interested in hearing from, even though I hate cyrillic and read it much more slowly than I do German/English.

 

[cgf]

The Avs might have been on to something with Wood... I was as big of tire pumper as anybody here, but Wood's skating is so, so far from a NHL level that it looks unlikely that he will ever amount to anything. He's been reduced to a 5/6/7 role in Tucson this year... and it doesn't look any easier for him next year to gain playing time.

Do you know if his work-ethic issues have reared their ugly head to play into that or if it was just being outplayed/not producing enough while being too big of a liability? It always sucks when you have to worry that a huge season will go to a kid's head & make them complacent, at least until reality humbles them again.

Cause a year or two ago his skating was looking like it was well on it's way to being good enough to be passable, if he kept putting the effort in, at least to this layman. So I'm curious if he's just maxed out how much his skating could improve, or if he's gotten lazy again.

 

[UncleRisto]

It also doesn't mean that he's wrong to feel like we can be a little pedantic when jumping on specific points, which makes folks feel attacked and like we don't want to engage with the bigger, more relevant/accurate, points that they are bringing up...even if that isn't the case and many of us will happily civily engage on topics with folks, even folks that we are brutal towards on other topics. It's the internet so that's sort of a given, and we're not as bad about it as some parts of the interwebz...or even HF.

...but I can't say he's entirely off base to feel attacked by our tendency to swarm someone who's presenting a minority opinion, especially now that you get alerted every single time someone quotes you to yell at part of your post. Which doesn't say the best things about us...at the very least in cases where the minority opinion holder is just trying to engage on their ideas, and not just trolling/pushing-an-invented-narrative-that-has-been-debunked-and-debated-ad-nausiem-in-search-of-converts or merely looking for people to validate their beliefs.


Maybe I'm just a little extra sensitive to this right now, cause I'm still getting quoted on the polls-board by leafs that are mad at me for arguing that just because Nylander has the decisively more impressive 20- & 21-yo seasons, doesn't mean that a person is automatically wrong for thinking Mittelstadt has more natural-talent/potential

Oh, absolutely. I don't mean to attack @MarkT. Me and a few other posters are a bit touchy about the Europe stuff for sure.

 

[henchman21]

Do you know if his work-ethic issues have reared their ugly head to play into that or if it was just being outplayed/not producing enough while being too big of a liability? It always sucks when you have to worry that a huge season will go to a kid's head & make them complacent, at least until reality humbles them again.

Cause a year or two ago his skating was looking like it was well on it's way to being good enough to be passable, if he kept putting the effort in, at least to this layman. So I'm curious if he's just maxed out how much his skating could improve, or if he's gotten lazy again.

I have no inside knowledge of it. He's always lacked flexibility and it is possible his body has just maxed out... and then you compound that with other prospects coming in and stealing his PP time, you have a player that is a liability 5v5 and isn't being utilized in the area that he excels in. In other words, a fairly useless player right now.

 

[cgf]

I have no inside knowledge of it. He's always lacked flexibility and it is possible his body has just maxed out... and then you compound that with other prospects coming in and stealing his PP time, you have a player that is a liability 5v5 and isn't being utilized in the area that he excels in. In other words, a fairly useless player right now.

Sounds like the poor bastard is getting Gelinas'd...I still think that we gave up on him too early, even if hindsight lets them off the hook because he never makes the progress he needs to to succeed.

 

[henchman21]

Sounds like the poor bastard is getting Gelinas'd...I still think that we gave up on him too early, even if hindsight lets them off the hook because he never makes the progress he needs to to succeed.

I don't think gave up is the right term... they basically got Boedker for a 2nd and a 2nd/3rd in value. Which to make the push I understand. It wasn't foreseen that both MacK and Duchene would go down. You have to pay to play sort of thing and giving up Wood made a hell of a lot more sense than giving up the other 2nd, a 1st, or Meloche.

 

[cgf]

I don't think gave up is the right term... they basically got Boedker for a 2nd and a 2nd/3rd in value. Which to make the push I understand. It wasn't foreseen that both MacK and Duchene would go down. You have to pay to play sort of thing and giving up Wood made a hell of a lot more sense than giving up the other 2nd, a 1st, or Meloche.

Yeah but I hate Boedker's game, so in my eyes paying two 2nds (or a 2nd & a 3rd) for Boedker is a ripoff even MacK & Dutchy stay healthy

 

[henchman21]

Yeah but I hate Boedker's game, so in my eyes paying two 2nds (or a 2nd & a 3rd) for Boedker is a ripoff even MacK & Dutchy stay healthy

It is fair to not like Boedker, but Boedker was the least of the reasons that the Avs didn't make the playoffs. He was pretty damn good here. 12 points in 18 games for a deadline player is pretty damn solid. If that team went .500 in the last 6 games, they would have been in the playoffs and that trade would be a pure footnote. That was a pathetic collapse at the end.