Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 2017-18 Part VI

[RockLobster]

I saw that one as well, the one I'm referring to was definitely more his opinion though, and it was tweeted out before that one.

 

[Balthazar]

I saw that one as well, the one I'm referring to was definitely more his opinion though, and it was tweeted out before that one.

Yeah this one...

 

[Goulet17]

Well I saw a tweet from Portzline earlier today that basically said that there's a reason PLD is being moved to Wing for their next game, so...

Is the reason that he is not actually a center?

 

[henchman21]

It is notoriously hard to play center under Torts, especially in a top 9 role where you actually get minutes. Doesn't shock me at all that PLD isn't cutting it for Torts.

 

[Goulet17]

Question: Would you be okay with a Duchene for Murray/Carlsson + Anderson trade with no add ons?

 

[Balthazar]

Aaron Portzline was just on NHL Radio and said the Jackets NEED Matt Duchene, and that the PTO for Johnny Malkin is a desperation move.

Then they can easily offer Murray (then don't really need him), Anderson (can't sign a deal) and a 1st. It won't even hurt them.

Do it Joe.

 

[JoemAvs]

Question: Would you be okay with a Duchene for Murray/Carlsson + Anderson trade with no add ons?

Nope.

I am also not sure that the Avs are the right fit for one of the two RFAs still holding out....

Maybe a team with a bit smarter approach to negotiating would be a better fit for him...

 

[Balthazar]

Nope.

I am also not sure that the Avs are the right fit for one of the two RFAs still holding out....

Maybe a team with a bit smarter approach to negotiating would be a better fit for him...

Yeah that's the thing with Anderson. We're not exactly a team with a history of giving "underserved" money to RFA's.

 

[Avs_19]

It is notoriously hard to play center under Torts, especially in a top 9 role where you actually get minutes. Doesn't shock me at all that PLD isn't cutting it for Torts.

That might be true but after watching Dubois play center for Canada at the summer showcase, I don't think this is just a Torts thing.

 

[RockLobster]

Nope.

I am also not sure that the Avs are the right fit for one of the two RFAs still holding out....

Maybe a team with a bit smarter approach to negotiating would be a better fit for him...

If you're holding out for a 1st, not saying the Avs may not get it, but don't be surprised if GM's are super reluctant to give those up--they know how good this draft is shaping up to be.

 

[Vaslof]

A conditional pick would make sense, a 1st only if Duchene signs a new deal there.
EDIT: Well it'd have the problem of not being in the next draft though.

 

[JoemAvs]

Yeah that's the thing with Anderson. We're not exactly a team with a history of giving "underserved" money to RFA's.

I mean Murray is really not needed in Columbus right now. I would be shocked if he is there 2 years from now.

Pretty sure Torts is not his biggest fan and they don't want to give him the 3M+ he probably asks for in his next contract..

Anderson is holding out on them and given how the RyJo situation panned out, the Jackets are not really a team that just forgives and forgets these things kind of like the Avs.

I am not gifting them Duchene for these two pieces they probably wouldn't mind trading at this point.

If the Avs are giving them Duchene for the pieces they would want to move anyways, they better also get a 1st out of it.

Neither Anderson, Murray or Carlsson have that much upside.

This simply wouldn't be a good deal at all. I could Sakic wanting that kind of deal because that ... seems to insist on roster players because he got burned in the ROR deal and has taken the wrong lessons from it but in the end I hope that even he has understood that he needs a 1st as well if he goes for guys that are not close to the talent level that Duchene has.


@RL:

True.

But honestly the 1st is the thing I care about. I don't think Murray, Carlsson or Anderson are very likely to turn into core pieces for us. Good depth players? Sure. Could see that. Core guys? Unlikely. This draft looks really good. I honestly take the 25th pick over Anderson without blinking twice. Especially if we go D.

Duchene is not chopped liver. If we are not getting your goddamn top prospects, you better cough up that first. A young D (prospect), that 1st and whatever else we can get in terms of forward prospects/roster players. With the last one being the one I really don't care about all that much given the names that could be had...

 

[AllAboutAvs]

A conditional pick would make sense, a 1st only if Duchene signs a new deal there.

Problem with that is the 1st would have to be 2019 as Duchene can't extend until Jul 1st 2018.

 

[Foppa]

Larsson over Carlsson/Murray please. Potential Ducks interest is good news.

 

[Avs44]

 

[henchman21]

That might be true but after watching Dubois play center for Canada at the summer showcase, I don't think this is just a Torts thing.

Potentially, PLD hasn't transitioned to center like he was projected to.

Any trade has to work for both sides... I think you'd be hard pressed saying that both teams don't win with at Duchene for Murray + Anderson base. Of course some added would be nice (and likely necessary to get a deal done), but Columbus gets their center and the Avs get a top 4 LD that is young and a young winger who might be a budding power forward (but is at least a great 3rd liner). That basis fills needs of both teams, while dealing away from the strengths (not that the Avs are real strong anywhere, but center is the best position).

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Anderson shot 14.3% last year. He's a young guy but I have a hard time seeing him replicate those numbers again. Good for him trying to get paid though. These chances don't come around often.

 

[Skip2myBordyloo]

So Sakic's plan here is for Duchene to have a bounce back season, and up his value so Sakic get's his price in a trade.

This could backfire. Big time.

 

[JoemAvs]

Potentially, PLD hasn't transitioned to center like he was projected to.

Any trade has to work for both sides... I think you'd be hard pressed saying that both teams don't win with at Duchene for Murray + Anderson base. Of course some added would be nice (and likely necessary to get a deal done), but Columbus gets their center and the Avs get a top 4 LD that is young and a young winger who might be a budding power forward (but is at least a great 3rd liner). That basis fills needs of both teams, while dealing away from the strengths (not that the Avs are real strong anywhere, but center is the best position).

Yeah without a 1st, I would tell them to GTFO. Thats really bad for the Avs.

A very expendable D and a holdout shouldn't get you Duchene.

Especially when both guys have limited upside (arguably with Anderson and I know some of his underlying numbers (all goals 5vs5, limited PP time) are very good but his SH% was also very high IIRC so I am not that sold on him tbh.

Don't think he will be a 1st liner...

 

[Balthazar]

Neither Anderson, Murray or Carlsson have that much upside.

Murray is only 23 and already 1st pairing capable, Anderson is a young middle 6 power forward. That's pretty good upside to me.

Carlsson is overrated by both teams because of his ELC status. CBJ wants to keep him because they won't be able to pay Murray soon. I don't think the Jackets believe that Carlsson is a better player than Murray, he's just more conveninent to their current situation.

 

[lonelybadger]

I wouldn't say Murray is first pairing capable.

Perhaps Dater is tweeting that as per sakics request. Meaning "hey GM's, have you seen yak and Duchene? Pony up!"

 

[Balthazar]

I wouldn't say Murray is first pairing capable.

He played 1st pairing 2 years ago and he was fine. Last year he got injured and lost his spot to Werenski because Werenski.

Perhaps Dater is tweeting that as per sakics request. Meaning "hey GM's, have you seen yak and Duchene? Pony up!"

He's trying to #daterjinx.

 

[henchman21]

Yeah without a 1st, I would tell them to GTFO. Thats really bad for the Avs.

A very expendable D and a holdout shouldn't get you Duchene.

Especially when both guys have limited upside (arguably with Anderson and I know some of his underlying numbers (all goals 5vs5, limited PP time) are very good but his SH% was also very high IIRC so I am not that sold on him tbh.

Don't think he will be a 1st liner...

It all depends on the extras... 2nd + Elvis instead of a 1st. That is a very solid deal, maybe even better than a pure 1st.

Jones was once expendable to the Preds... by that logic, he shouldn't have returned RyJo... Just because a team has strengths and players are expendable, doesn't mean they are not good players. Hell, Duchene is expendable from this team, doesn't make him terrible.

I believe you are underrating both. Murray is a top 4D now, just stuck in a position where he is buried and the coach isn't the biggest fan (with Torts, that doesn't bother me in the slightest). Anderson is on his way to becoming a good 2nd liner. I don't think he becomes a top line guy, but he has the makings of a 25-25 sort with grit. Not a bad player to have IMO.

I think the expectation of getting a sure thing top pairing D prospect, a future 1st liner, and a first is simply way too high of an expectation of a return.

 

[JoemAvs]

It all depends on the extras... 2nd + Elvis instead of a 1st. That is a very solid deal, maybe even better than a pure 1st.

Jones was once expendable to the Preds... by that logic, he shouldn't have returned RyJo... Just because a team has strengths and players are expendable, doesn't mean they are not good players. Hell, Duchene is expendable from this team, doesn't make him terrible.

I believe you are underrating both. Murray is a top 4D now, just stuck in a position where he is buried and the coach isn't the biggest fan (with Torts, that doesn't bother me in the slightest). Anderson is on his way to becoming a good 2nd liner. I don't think he becomes a top line guy, but he has the makings of a 25-25 sort with grit. Not a bad player to have IMO.

I think the expectation of getting a sure thing top pairing D prospect, a future 1st liner, and a first is simply way too high of an expectation of a return.

I was fine with Larsson + 1st + Mahura/Pettersson a page earlier.

So I don't think I highly overrate Duchenes value.


Murray has an extensive injury history, an even worse year than Duchene and is very expendable.
He is a top4 D yes. Will you ever want him anywhere near your top pairing on a very good team? I have my doubts.

IMO he would be exactly what I think Zadorov will be for the Avs. A very solid 2nd pairing LHD. Just that he wouldn't be nearly as good physically and be more of an injury risk.

He is not even close to what Jones was back then. Jones had upside for days and everyone (or atleast many people) knew it would only be a matter of time. Murray? Yeah no. Thats comparison does not make much sense.


Anderson might not be a bad player to have. Same as Murray.

But you don't trade a guy like Duchene for 2 players that might not be bad to have...

That sure will look good when Duchene will be centering CBJs first line and help them go deep in the playoffs and you can point to two players that might not be bad to have but that ultimately do not do much when it comes to turning your franchise around.
Also disagree with 2nd + goalie prospect.

The 2018 draft looks really good. The last draft I liked as much was 2015.
And I sure as hell take a 1st in 2015 over late 2nd + Elvis....

The difference between a late 1st and a late 2nd will be very substantial in this draft IMO. There will be a steep dropoff somewhere in between.

I just wouldn't be willing to budge on that 1st. At all.

Let them keep Anderson and give me Stenlund instead if that helps with them throwing in the 1st.


Duchenes talent level is simply not comparable to guys like Murray and Anderson. You just don't make a deal like that where you basically have 0 chance of ever really coming out ahead without a 1st thrown in.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

For the record I don't think you guys are asking too much as far as package deals are concerned.

I think a good comparable for Duchene is the Bobby Ryan trade. Ducks got 10th overall + silfverberg(young nhl player) + Noessen(decent prospect didn't pan out).


Granted I think most people assumed the 10th overall was going to be closer to the 20th pick.

I think the only difference is you guys are likely looking for dmen(nhl/prospect) which are usually slightly higher value than forwards.

So a Young NHL player/Blue chip prospect dmen + 1st(likely a contending team 15-25th range) + 2nd/b-level prospect(depending on original piece) is more than acceptable asks, and hell as the team with the piece... the original ask should be higher and negotiated downward