Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XI| Witty Title

[S E P H]

He literally just won the Vezina, he wasn’t great in the playoffs but to say he played poorly last year is crazy.

You can say that the Vezina is the biggest "teammate" award out of all of them.

 

[Eltuna]

You say that the Vezina is the biggest "teammate" award out of all of them.

I don’t think I said that, it’s probably true though. That doesn’t mean you can be a bad goalie and win it however, Rinne gets a lot of help but he played well last year.

 

[Pokecheque]

Oh and I'm also guessing Karlsson and Panarin will start the year with their respective clubs, but not finish with them.

I had forgotten that Werenski underwent some pretty major shoulder surgery this offseason in May, only started skating just now. That's not good, I can't imagine he'll be in prime form until midseason or so, barring any setbacks.

 

[S E P H]

I don’t think I said that, it’s probably true though. That doesn’t mean you can be a bad goalie and win it however, Rinne gets a lot of help but he played well last year.

Sorry I forgot the word *can in that post, updated it now. Rinne didn't play well because they didn't win the Cup, who cares about regular season when you're a Cup contender like Nashville. The Predators don't even need him to be amazing, look at what a extremely average goaler in Holtby was able to accomplish by not allowing weak/timely goals. Something in which I argue Rinne has quite struggled in the past four to five seasons beyond them rising as a potential perennial winner.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Ellis has never cracked 40 points in his career. Granted, he was on pace to last season and he had 38 the season prior, so the ability to do so is clearly there. He's pretty good defensively, too, so I think this contract is fair but I worry that if this is what Ellis is getting, Barrie could get a lot higher.

That's pretty much for certain.


Points are what gets you paid, and Barrie now has multiple 50+ point seasons as a Dman. I'm fully expecting Barrie to get a new deal in the neighborhood of what OEL got and it will be fair value for him. Say what you will about his defensive game but offensively he is one of the most dynamic and talented blueliners in the entire NHL. With the puck on his stick there's very few Dmen I would take over Barrie. Karlsson, Burns, and Klingberg are the only 3 that immediately stick out as better.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Sorry I forgot the word *can in that post, updated it now. Rinne didn't play well because they didn't win the Cup, who cares about regular season when you're a Cup contender like Nashville. The Predators don't even need him to be amazing, look at what a extremely average goaler in Holtby was able to accomplish by not allowing weak/timely goals. Something in which I argue Rinne has quite struggled in the past four to five seasons beyond them rising as a potential perennial winner.

Still not willing to admit defeat on that one hey?

 

[Meeqs]

You can say that the Vezina is the biggest "teammate" award out of all of them.

Agreed

I feel like when we talk about the "best goalies", half of the time its because the goalie is incredible and the other half is a goalie with an incredible defense/defensive system in front of him. How many times have we seen a middle of the pack goaltender like Holtby get a new coach(trotz) and a vastly improved defense and all of a sudden become one of the best. How about cast off Dubby before joining Min under Yeo. Its the same with Rinne, he has been in decline for a while as he is a bit older but having the best defense in the league infront of him really allows him to inflate his numbers.

Good defensive teams are really able to limit high % plays, shot volume and keep chances to the outside. When a goalie like Rinne wins its more of a team award and its not like he is out there playing like Varly when he hard carried the Avs seeing 50 shots a night with Guenin blocking his view.

 

[Eltuna]

Sorry I forgot the word *can in that post, updated it now. Rinne didn't play well because they didn't win the Cup, who cares about regular season when you're a Cup contender like Nashville. The Predators don't even need him to be amazing, look at what a extremely average goaler in Holtby was able to accomplish by not allowing weak/timely goals. Something in which I argue Rinne has quite struggled in the past four to five seasons beyond them rising as a potential perennial winner.

Holtby is a vezina winner and two time finalist he’s not average. I wouldn’t say judging a player only for playoff success would be wise. Such a binary view does not work in a sport with as much randomness and parity as hockey. You can have a good year playing on a contender and not win the cup. Kucherov had a great year, just because Tampa didn’t win doesn’t automatically mean he had a bad year.

 

[S E P H]

Still not willing to admit defeat on that one hey?

There's no defeat to admit, Caps win the Cup with Bob as their goaler and Holtby isn't the reason except not allowing weak or untimely goals. People see that he made one fluke save and say that he's a Conn Smythe candidate...yeah no. He's still a good goaler and I was rooting for them, but Vegas missed some absolute empty net goals in like half of the games in the Finals that would've made it harder for Washington to win.

 

[dahrougem2]

There's no defeat to admit, Caps win the Cup with Bob as their goaler and Holtby isn't the reason except not allowing weak or untimely goals. People see that he made one fluke save and say that he's a Conn Smythe candidate...yeah no. He's still a good goaler and I was rooting for them, but Vegas missed some absolute empty net goals in like half of the games in the Finals that would've made it harder for Washington to win.

I just don't know how you are still putting up this argument lol. His regular season numbers are consistently amongst the best in the league, his playoff numbers are out of this world, and he just put everything together to win a cup.

He's not extremely average. He's an excellent goaltender and no, with Bobrovsky in net the Capitals don't win the cup because Bobrovsky is one of the weakest goalies mentally in all of hockey. Like, the difference in their playoff numbers is astronomical.

 

[Avs_19]

Just take the L, @S E P H

 

[henchman21]

Holtby might not be a top 5 goalie, but he is very close if he isn't. Every question about him has been solved now. A Stanley Cup, Jennings, Vezina, Calder (AHL not NHL), and 3 time all star at 28 isn't a bad start at all for a career.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Holtby is a career .929 sv% playoff goalie. He has played 82 career playoff games. He has won 45 times in his playoff career.

Bobrovsky is a career .891 sv% playoff goalie and has played 24 career playoff games. He has won 5 if those games.

Let’s please not pretend Sergei Bobrovsky would have filled Brayden Holtby’s void on the recently Stanley Cup champion team.

I got laughed at miserably two years ago when I said the two best goalies in the league were Price and Holtby. Who would have thought that the one who has proved me wrong since (and mostly only due to injury) is Price.

I still consider CP the best in the world though even though many will disagree with me. It’s a shame he’ll be a Hab for the next decade.

 

[Balthazar]

Oh and I'm also guessing Karlsson and Panarin will start the year with their respective clubs, but not finish with them.

Looks like it's going to be the case with Pacioretty as well.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

That tweet is hilarious

It sounds so sarcastic

 

[The Abusement Park]

There's no defeat to admit, Caps win the Cup with Bob as their goaler and Holtby isn't the reason except not allowing weak or untimely goals. People see that he made one fluke save and say that he's a Conn Smythe candidate...yeah no. He's still a good goaler and I was rooting for them, but Vegas missed some absolute empty net goals in like half of the games in the Finals that would've made it harder for Washington to win.

I mean he made some huge saves throughout the playoffs. The only goalie who had a better playoffs was Fleury. And he put up pretty pedestrian numbers in the finals. Take the L. You have no leg to stand on here.

 

[dahrougem2]

Holtby is a career .929 sv% playoff goalie. He has played 82 career playoff games. He has won 45 times in his playoff career.

Bobrovsky is a career .891 sv% playoff goalie and has played 24 career playoff games. He has won 5 if those games.

Let’s please not pretend Sergei Bobrovsky would have filled Brayden Holtby’s void on the recently Stanley Cup champion team.

I got laughed at miserably two years ago when I said the two best goalies in the league were Price and Holtby. Who would have thought that the one who has proved me wrong since (and mostly only due to injury) is Price.

I still consider CP the best in the world though even though many will disagree with me. It’s a shame he’ll be a Hab for the next decade.

I think we're about to see a lot of very poor hockey from Carey Price. That Canadiens team will stink for a while, there's nothing in the way of prospects coming soon for help, Price is on the wrong side of 30 and has serious injury issues. Things could get ugly.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I think we're about to see a lot of very poor hockey from Carey Price. That Canadiens team will stink for a while, there's nothing in the way of prospects coming soon for help, Price is on the wrong side of 30 and has serious injury issues. Things could get ugly.

My prediction is that Habs fans will hate Carey Price more than ever after this year because he's going to steal them a bunch of wins and they'll finish like 10th last instead of last and won't be picking in the top 5.

 

[S E P H]

You lot are crazy about numbers, when I told you lads that goalkeeping numbers are some of the flukiest in all of analytics (what I mean is heavily weighed on by a team's talent level). Holtby gets to play on a powerhouse club every single year after year. Bob plays on the effin Columbus Blue Jackets who do not have a player that comes close to Ovechkin's or even Backstrom's talent level - Panarin is pretty close though. Even though Vezina is a teammate trophy, Bobrovsky's wins' are much more influential for me than Holtby's or any single Brodeur's considering how he played behind the most defencive team in decades with the Devils. I guarantee that if you put Bob on Washington they still win the Cup - perhaps that's not because Holtby is bad or anything, but because Sergei is a wonderful goaler in his own right. If Bob goes to Nashville, they win multiple cups.

This isn't going anywhere so this is my last post on this discussion - I'll read any rebuttals, but you guys are wrong.

 

[henchman21]

The problem with Bob isn't that he isn't a good goalie, he is a very good goalie... he is just pure mental fragility in pressure situations. Until he proves he can hold together in the playoffs, he will be down a few levels from the top goalies and I'd never personally want to count on him in the playoffs.

 

[Foppa2118]

Holtby is a career .929 sv% playoff goalie. He has played 82 career playoff games. He has won 45 times in his playoff career.

Bobrovsky is a career .891 sv% playoff goalie and has played 24 career playoff games. He has won 5 if those games.

Let’s please not pretend Sergei Bobrovsky would have filled Brayden Holtby’s void on the recently Stanley Cup champion team.

I got laughed at miserably two years ago when I said the two best goalies in the league were Price and Holtby. Who would have thought that the one who has proved me wrong since (and mostly only due to injury) is Price.

I still consider CP the best in the world though even though many will disagree with me. It’s a shame he’ll be a Hab for the next decade.

Don't write off Price just yet. Most goalies have down years. Especially when they involve injuries. Quick had some down years, then rebounded. So did Luongo. So did Fleury. So did Varly last year. Even Holtby had a down year before the playoffs last year.

It's a very difficult position to play, and the margin for error is incredibly small. Being consistently good is hard enough. Being consistently one of the best goalies in the world, for more than a few years in a row is almost impossible in this day and age, where coaches are so good at finding and exploiting any weaknesses.

 

[Balthazar]

That tweet is hilarious

It sounds so sarcastic

Sad part is it wasn't. There was a rumor this week about them not going which is probably why they felt the need to clarify things. There are so many fake news around that org these days.

If the Habs were a political party I'd suspect Russian trolls to mess with them.

 

[Pokecheque]

You lot are crazy about numbers, when I told you lads that goalkeeping numbers are some of the flukiest in all of analytics (what I mean is heavily weighed on by a team's talent level). Holtby gets to play on a powerhouse club every single year after year. Bob plays on the effin Columbus Blue Jackets who do not have a player that comes close to Ovechkin's or even Backstrom's talent level - Panarin is pretty close though. Even though Vezina is a teammate trophy, Bobrovsky's wins' are much more influential for me than Holtby's or any single Brodeur's considering how he played behind the most defencive team in decades with the Devils. I guarantee that if you put Bob on Washington they still win the Cup - perhaps that's not because Holtby is bad or anything, but because Sergei is a wonderful goaler in his own right. If Bob goes to Nashville, they win multiple cups.

This isn't going anywhere so this is my last post on this discussion - I'll read any rebuttals, but you guys are wrong.

I really don't disagree much with your assessment here but I think that's still a long way from saying Holtby is merely average. I don't think he's necessarily deserving of all the praise he gets but I also don't think he's pedestrian.

I think we're seeing a lull in terms of goaltending talent. Most of us spent our formative years watching three generational talents in Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek rule the roost, and even then the next-tier-down guys were Eddie Belfour and Curtis Joseph. The current crop doesn't even come close IMO. It's kinda like what we're seeing in the NFL after my generation grew up seeing all kinds of astounding talents at QB.

 

[McMetal]

I think we're seeing a lull in terms of goaltending talent. Most of us spent our formative years watching three generational talents in Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek rule the roost, and even then the next-tier-down guys were Eddie Belfour and Curtis Joseph. The current crop doesn't even come close IMO. It's kinda like what we're seeing in the NFL after my generation grew up seeing all kinds of astounding talents at QB.

Nail on the head there. There are 31 teams in the league and there aren't 31 halfway decent NHL starters.

 

[henchman21]

It is easy to look back at an era and say all the goalies were good, but even the mid 90s had guys like Thibault, Burke, Carey, and Hebert manning starting spots too...