Confirmed with Link: Avs acquire S. Girard, S. Bowers, V. Kamenev, A. Hammond, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for M. Duchene - Part II

[henchman21]

How the heck did this turn into a Jost thread?!

Jost and Kamenev should be judged very differently on their skating. Kamenev doesn't need to be better than average to be effective at his size. To be an elite player, yeah he needs a lot better skating. To be a good player, get to average and his other skills can likely compensate. Plenty of average skating 6'2" centers out there (though I think Kamenev should bulk up). Jost... in today's NHL and how much quicker it is tending to get, to be a center at his size, his skating is going to have to dramatically improve. I hope Jost proves to be an exception like Point, but counting on it just because he works hard seems misguided. To me, Jost doesn't have a fundamental flaw in his stride like Point did... but I hope to be wrong. That doesn't mean Jost can't be a good player, because he can be. I've stated over and over that I think Jost can be a mid 50 point winger with good 2 way ability and is as hard of worker on the ice as you could want. That is a damn good player and valuable. I just think he has a significant uphill battle at center. My biggest fear with Jost is that there will be such an emphasis on bulking up and getting stronger that he ends up a 5'11" 205 guy that loses a step or two on his skating. To me Jost should be 100% focused on improving his skating and balance even if he sheds a few pounds. I'd rather see him in the 180-185 level with an extra skating gear than him at 200. He's never going to be a bulldog or physically overpowering player. He needs to get his advantage with tenacity and skating. Since the skating is lacking, he needs to find every tweak he can there.

TLDR... Kamenev can be an average skater and get away with it at center. A blessing of being 6'2"

To me, the best shot the Avs have at the #2C spot long-term is Bowers... size, skill, skating, two way ability, physicality... he has it all, just needs refinement. I doubt he is a 60 point guy, but he should be a solid offensive contributor. I'd put Kamenev right behind him as the next shot. Shvy after that.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Joe Pavelski, Casey Cizikas, Derek MacKenzie, and Brayden Point are all sub 6'0" players that improved their skating enough to become good NHLers.

Also, Jost was 5'11" at his draft combine, he could be pushing 5'11.5" by now we don't know. How much difference is there really between someone 5'11.5" and good players who are 6'0". It's certainly not some imaginary line that seperates players from being good NHLers or not.

Stastny, Krejci, Stepan, and Marcus Kruger are all 6'0" and improved their skating enough to NHL standards to become good NHLers.

This is why characterizing Jost or Kamenev as not being able to become elite skaters needs to be corrected. Because people then conflate elite skaters, with good skaters, and average skaters, and start to think someone can't improve their skating enough to play in the NHL, or play center.

There's no reason to even bring "elite" into the conversation. Both Kamenev and Jost can improve to average or even slightly above average if they have the dedication to working on it, and have success in the NHL at center.

Again like I said there aren’t many sub 6’ C’s that are top 6 C’s without being great to elite skaters. And Point is what I’d consider a great skater if not elite so that goes with my point. Again I haven’t written him off already, but I can still believe he’ll be a good player while having questions about him. I’d say the majority of top 6 C’s in the league are big with elite IQ and technical skills or elite skaters or a combination of all those. Jost definitely is a smart player and has good technical skills but his skating just leads me to believe that he may have some struggles becoming a top 6 C. Could he do it? 100%, I’m not saying it’s impossible.

 

[Foppa2118]

Again like I said there aren’t many sub 6’ C’s that are top 6 C’s without being great to elite skaters. And Point is what I’d consider a great skater if not elite so that goes with my point. Again I haven’t written him off already, but I can still believe he’ll be a good player while having questions about him. I’d say the majority of top 6 C’s in the league are big with elite IQ and technical skills or elite skaters or a combination of all those. Jost definitely is a smart player and has good technical skills but his skating just leads me to believe that he may have some struggles becoming a top 6 C. Could he do it? 100%, I’m not saying it’s impossible.

Lack of high end skill and IQ is what keeps average and slightly above average skaters out of the top 6. Pavelski and Point have it. So does Jost. Casey Cizikas and Derek MacKenzie do not.

Another thing that keeps an average skater out of the top 6 is a low compete level. Grigo is an example of this. Jost has a very high compete level.

If you have high end skill, a good hockey IQ, a high compete level, an ability to be coachable, and a dedication to improving on your weaknesses off the ice, you can make up for average skating. The more of these that are missing in your game, the harder it is to make up for skating.

Jost ranks high in all of these categories.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Lack of high end skill and IQ is what keeps average and slightly above average skaters out of the top 6. Pavelski and Point have it. So does Jost. Casey Cizikas and Derek MacKenzie do not.

Another thing that keeps an average skater out of the top 6 is a low compete level. Grigo is an example of this. Jost has a very high compete level.

If you have high end skill, a good hockey IQ, a high compete level, an ability to be coachable, and a dedication to improving on your weaknesses off the ice, you can make up for average skating. The more of these that are missing in your game, the harder it is to make up for skating.

Jost ranks high in all of these categories.

Of course. There’s a reason I’ve said I think he’ll be a top 6 winger long term. I think he’s better suited to the wing than he is at Center. I don’t think he’s going to be some bottom 6 meh player, I just have questions whether or not he’ll be a center.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I still cant believe we got all this for one guy.

 

[ASmileyFace]

I still cant believe we got all this for one guy.

I follow Dutchy on some social media still just to remind myself of this wonderful trade.

 

[SuperJoe]

I still cant believe we got all this for one guy.

It's quite unbelievable really, even with a mid to late round first it would be very good, now it's hard not to be salivating at the prospect of adding a top 10 pick, thanks high five Dorion

 

[Pokecheque]

I follow Dutchy on some social media still just to remind myself of this wonderful trade.

I follow Paisley, I haven't yet heard his take on all this.

 

[PAZ]

Why? I'm around 50/50 when it comes to his NHL chances but from what little I've seen he's not some pillow-soft perimeter guy with a suspect work ethic.

Which reminds me...Joe Colborne...WTF!?

Kam is a great player and I don't think it's fair to write him off, but I do see similarities to Greg as well. Let's not forget we were all high on Greg the first two years, giving him every excuse in the book.

But at the end of the day Kam's playstyle is closer to Greg's than a player like Jost, so Kam needs to be producing to be an effective player on the ice. There's no issue with that playstyle, but it's either top 6 or bust with his current trajectory. He's still young and his game can still adapt, but i'm not sold on him yet.

 

[JLo217]

Bowers is still the most interesting to me in this trade. It's fun watching Girard grow and I think it's pretty safe he'll be a top 4 LD, but Bowers could be an amazing fit as a #2C if everything goes right.

 

[Pokecheque]

Kam is a great player and I don't think it's fair to write him off, but I do see similarities to Greg as well. Let's not forget we were all high on Greg the first two years, giving him every excuse in the book.

But at the end of the day Kam's playstyle is closer to Greg's than a player like Jost, so Kam needs to be producing to be an effective player on the ice. There's no issue with that playstyle, but it's either top 6 or bust with his current trajectory. He's still young and his game can still adapt, but i'm not sold on him yet.

Were we really that high on Greg? I seem to remember a lot of us thinking he was the throw-in and hoping Roy might get something out of him Buffalo didn't. There was cautious optimism, I don't recall a bunch of excuse-making. I remember thinking he looked pretty solid in preseason 2016, so I was pretty excited to see what he could do as a depth/utility guy, but not much more than that.

I don't necessarily buy that he's gotta be top-six or bust. He's billed as a two-way player so I think there's room for him to be a 3rd/4th line guy, in fact if he ends up being more than that I'll be pretty shocked, in a good way. But I'm not sold on him either.

 

[Foppberg]

I'm higher on Kamenev than most, but even if he tops off as a #3C good for 30-40 points with solid defense, I'll be happy.

 

[PAZ]

Were we really that high on Greg? I seem to remember a lot of us thinking he was the throw-in and hoping Roy might get something out of him Buffalo didn't. There was cautious optimism, I don't recall a bunch of excuse-making. I remember thinking he looked pretty solid in preseason 2016, so I was pretty excited to see what he could do as a depth/utility guy, but not much more than that.

I don't necessarily buy that he's gotta be top-six or bust. He's billed as a two-way player so I think there's room for him to be a 3rd/4th line guy, in fact if he ends up being more than that I'll be pretty shocked, in a good way. But I'm not sold on him either.

After his first season with us we had him penciled in as a top 6 winger, and the reason why he wasn't reaching his potential was because he was only getting limited minutes and wasn't put on a line with more skilled players like Duchene. There were people throwing stats out there showing how much more productive Greg was on a skilled line as opposed to playing with 3rd liners, etc. It wasn't until the 2nd/3rd year people started giving up hope on him.

Kam's current playstyle isn't fit for 3rd/4th line duty. He's not strong enough defensively to have a role like Soda does, and he doesn't have a good enough worth ethic to be a pest/energy guy. He's in that in-between limbo where he does a lot of small things right, but wouldn't have a defined role in the bottom 6.

 

[Goulet17]

Kamenev is a more attentive and diligent two-way player than Grigorenko. Really two different types of players, at least based on the projection of what Kamenev could be.

 

[henchman21]

After his first season with us we had him penciled in as a top 6 winger, and the reason why he wasn't reaching his potential was because he was only getting limited minutes and wasn't put on a line with more skilled players like Duchene. There were people throwing stats out there showing how much more productive Greg was on a skilled line as opposed to playing with 3rd liners, etc. It wasn't until the 2nd/3rd year people started giving up hope on him.

Kam's current playstyle isn't fit for 3rd/4th line duty. He's not strong enough defensively to have a role like Soda does, and he doesn't have a good enough worth ethic to be a pest/energy guy. He's in that in-between limbo where he does a lot of small things right, but wouldn't have a defined role in the bottom 6.

And about how his points per 60 were high. Grigo had some decent hype after his first season here. It went away the next year when it was clear he was the type to have some production, but not the type to be a player you want on a team even with that production. Not as productive by any stretch, but similar to Sam Gagner. A player who in roles can put up points and contribute... but NHL teams don't really want him.

 

[PAZ]

Kamenev is a more attentive and diligent two-way player than Grigorenko. Really two different types of players, at least based on the projection of what Kamenev could be.

I agree, but I just don't think it's enough to carve out a bottom 6 role for himself. I'd be happy to be wrong though.

 

[Pokecheque]

After his first season with us we had him penciled in as a top 6 winger, and the reason why he wasn't reaching his potential was because he was only getting limited minutes and wasn't put on a line with more skilled players like Duchene. There were people throwing stats out there showing how much more productive Greg was on a skilled line as opposed to playing with 3rd liners, etc. It wasn't until the 2nd/3rd year people started giving up hope on him.

Kam's current playstyle isn't fit for 3rd/4th line duty. He's not strong enough defensively to have a role like Soda does, and he doesn't have a good enough worth ethic to be a pest/energy guy. He's in that in-between limbo where he does a lot of small things right, but wouldn't have a defined role in the bottom 6.

Sound argument, the only thing I'd say as a "counterpoint" is that I still believe, despite the fact that he had me eating a ton of crow this last season, that Soda's defensive play is still way overrated around here. But I suppose that may further the point because efforts to make Soda a 3rd line guy haven't worked either. I suppose we'll see...I am not bullish on the guy but still cautiously optimistic.

 

[McMetal]

I'm higher on Kamenev than most, but even if he tops off as a #3C good for 30-40 points with solid defense, I'll be happy.

That's a damn good player, frankly. I'd be all kinds of happy if that was what we got. Every good team needs one of those.

I can see some similarities between Kam and Grigo, but there are some real differences as well. Grigo had way more raw skill and fit best with other skill players, because he didn't drive offense by himself but had no problem keeping up with players who did. Kamenev is a much more diligent defensive player who doesn't exactly drive offense as a C but has real skill as a playmaker from that position. He's also not afraid of contact, which was a major knock on Grigo because he was terrible along the boards.

 

[Foppa2118]

The only thing keeping Grigo from being a solid 3rd liner in the NHL was the same thing keeping him from being a top 6’er. His compete level was too low. He had everything else.

If Kamenev doesn’t have that problem, the Grigo comparison is not a good one.

 

[Foppa Frossa]

I don't view Kamenev as a below average skater. Just re-watched every shift he had for the Avs

Wow, how long did that take?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Wow, how long did that take?

Maybe 10 minutes lol?

 

[Goulet17]

Perhaps surprisingly, Kamenev had over twenty-five minutes of TOI in his brief appearance with the Avs this past season.

 

[Avalanche]

I follow Paisley, I haven't yet heard his take on all this.

The move was very ruff.


...I'll go now

 

[Pokecheque]

I follow Dutchy on some social media still just to remind myself of this wonderful trade.

Speaking of which, anyone gonna get one of these?



Not really my style but hey some of the proceeds are going to a good cause, good fer him.

If I ever get famous maybe I'll come out with a line of clothing that has an outline of Jefferson County on it. Something tells me the sales won't be great though.

 

[Foppa2118]

I follow Dutchy on some social media still just to remind myself of this wonderful trade.

It was slightly weird seeing him post a photo of himself in an Avs jersey with Iggy, congratulating him on his career.