Confirmed with Link: Avs acquire S. Girard, S. Bowers, V. Kamenev, A. Hammond, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for M. Duchene - Part II

[McMetal]

Seriously, do people forget what it was like to be 18? 18 year olds don't know shit, if nobody learned anything new after they turned 18 humanity would never have left the caves. There's no reason why they can't learn techniques to become a better skater.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

It's quite pretentious to believe than an NHL player who went through hockey development all his life (and elite level schools/coaches for most of them during their pre-draft years) isn't aware of everything he needs to know about how to skate properly... and he'd need tips to skate faster.

What they learn is being effective at the NHL level despite not having great skating. There are plenty of average skaters that are good players, and that's why some need a skating coach. Skating fast, like running fast, is a natural hability. Usain Bolt was faster than anyone in his town by age 12 and he learned on his own. Some are just better at it than others.

To answer your question, those who get faster at that age don't do it through learning a new technique (or at least very little) they do it through power and conditioning.

So you are saying that teams using a skating coach do so just to get their kids better skaters, not faster?

And you are also saying that if an 18 yr old sprinter hasn't won a gold medal yet he will never win one?

I can't believe somebody would even think something like that.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Nah. His skating in general has greatly improved. He still needs work with his balance but he had taken steps forward in terms of his agility and straight line ability.

Yeah I fully believe Mikko's problem is mostly getting used to his frame/size. Classic lanky kid who's body and mind need to get into sync by maturing. If Mikko gets stronger on his edges, and a little faster through strength he'll be fine.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Seriously, do people forget what it was like to be 18? 18 year olds don't know ****, if nobody learned anything new after they turned 18 humanity would never have left the caves. There's no reason why they can't learn techniques to become a better skater.

I love this post lol, so true.. After 18 you slowly learn to calm down and listen to other people who have experience you don't. Most of the later half of the teenage years you spend thinking you know better than everyone else.

 

[Freudian]

I mean, I hear people say this all the time but there aren’t many cases of people “fixing” their skating. Tavares, Wheeler.... who else?

People saying “skating is one of the easiest things to fix” is essentially just saying it’s easier to fix than hockey sense which is pretty much impossible to fix unless you’re an extreme case like EJ. Even he is quite dumb still.

I’d argue stickhandling and shooing are much easier to fix than skating.

So yeah, it’s easier to fix than some parts, but in most cases a marginal improvement is the best you’ll ever see. Skating is probably the most important facet of the game in 2018. If it was as easy to fix as people here continuously say it is, We’d all still be aiming for the show.

Add O'Reilly, Sedins. They went from poor skaters to ok skaters. Took them a few off seasons.

I think there might be a difference of meaning here. Getting skating to NHL level is fairly easy but going from below average to above average is very hard. Excellent skaters are almost always excellent skaters before they are drafted.

 

[Tweaky]

Usain Bolt's best 200m time in his 18yo season was 19.93sec. He set the world record of 19.19sec 5 years later at age 23. He was also 23 when he set the WR for 100m at 9.58s, and 21 when he set his personal best for 400m at 45.28s. For the 200m times, he never had a year in which competed in that event that he did not beat that 18yo time.

So yes, even athletes of the highest order, who have been coached by the best their whole lives, can continue to get better through their early 20s. And that is running, an inherently more natural and less complicated activity than skating.

Skating can improve. I think the disconnect is that idea that some may be thinking (or assuming others are thinking) that a poor skater can become elite. That would be rare. A player for whom skating is a weakness in his draft year will never be an elite skater. But he could improve to the point that it is no longer a weakness. And for a player with that weakness, but who is good/great/elite in the other necessary skills, then bringing skating up to passable means that player has a pretty decent shot of making a career in the NHL.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Vlad Kamenev will be 22 years old in two weeks. He’s a slow skater right now. I don’t expect that to change very dramatically in the future.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Vlad Kamenev will be 22 years old in two weeks. He’s a slow skater right now. I don’t expect that to change very dramatically in the future.

[YT]

 

[henchman21]

Not a single highlight there showed off any speed... Kamenev is a below average skater and at his age, he is very unlikely to turn it into a strength. It is very rare for a player beyond the age of 17/18 to go from bad skater to elite (Point is clearly an exception). You can see below average skaters improve to average on a pretty consistent basis, but it normally happens during early years in development. If a player is past 20-21-22... they don't tend to dramatically improve.

 

[Piestany88]

I mean, I hear people say this all the time but there aren’t many cases of people “fixing” their skating. Tavares, Wheeler.... who else?

People saying “skating is one of the easiest things to fix” is essentially just saying it’s easier to fix than hockey sense which is pretty much impossible to fix unless you’re an extreme case like EJ. Even he is quite dumb still.

I’d argue stickhandling and shooing are much easier to fix than skating.

So yeah, it’s easier to fix than some parts, but in most cases a marginal improvement is the best you’ll ever see. Skating is probably the most important facet of the game in 2018. If it was as easy to fix as people here continuously say it is, We’d all still be aiming for the show.

Exactly ask Dylan Strome how easy it is to fix

 

[Goulet17]

I don't view Kamenev as a below average skater. Just re-watched every shift he had for the Avs and Rampage (limited samples) and he is fine in my opinion. Scouts never viewed him as a below average skater either. He measured 6'2" 204 lbs. at the combine, and he likely is at 210 lbs. or slightly more at this point in time. For his size, he is fine.

If you read this board, you very well may have the impression that every Avs player/prospect is a below average skater.

If anything he is tentative at times, it has been the biggest criticism of his game, particularly his brief NHL appearances. He has quite a bit of skill, but he does not assert himself offensively and seems to be too cautious in a game skewed toward the defensive side.

 

[Piestany88]

In that recent interview of kamenev's he does say that he was slow and that Nashville said he had improved somewhat at last year's camp for whatever that is worth . Hopefully he got a little quicker .

 

[Foppberg]

I'm not expecting him to become MacKinnon out there, but if he could improve his speed and edgework just a bit I think that's very doable and beneficial for him.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Usain Bolt's best 200m time in his 18yo season was 19.93sec. He set the world record of 19.19sec 5 years later at age 23. He was also 23 when he set the WR for 100m at 9.58s, and 21 when he set his personal best for 400m at 45.28s. For the 200m times, he never had a year in which competed in that event that he did not beat that 18yo time.

So yes, even athletes of the highest order, who have been coached by the best their whole lives, can continue to get better through their early 20s. And that is running, an inherently more natural and less complicated activity than skating.

Skating can improve. I think the disconnect is that idea that some may be thinking (or assuming others are thinking) that a poor skater can become elite. That would be rare. A player for whom skating is a weakness in his draft year will never be an elite skater. But he could improve to the point that it is no longer a weakness. And for a player with that weakness, but who is good/great/elite in the other necessary skills, then bringing skating up to passable means that player has a pretty decent shot of making a career in the NHL.

Good post. Agree 100%.

 

[Pokecheque]

I'm really not worried about the skating. Carl Soderberg is a slug out there and has somehow managed to eke out a decent living as an NHLer. And I don't think he has stellar hockey sense that allows him to anticipate the play out there either.

 

[Balthazar]

I'm really not worried about the skating. Carl Soderberg is a slug out there and has somehow managed to eke out a decent living as an NHLer. And I don't think he has stellar hockey sense that allows him to anticipate the play out there either.

Luc Robitaille was probably the slowest top 6 skater of his era. Speed isn't as important if you know where to go and when.

 

[agentblack]

I don't view Kamenev as a below average skater. Just re-watched every shift he had for the Avs and Rampage (limited samples) and he is fine in my opinion. Scouts never viewed him as a below average skater either. He measured 6'2" 204 lbs. at the combine, and he likely is at 210 lbs. or slightly more at this point in time. For his size, he is fine.

If you read this board, you very well may have the impression that every Avs player/prospect is a below average skater.

If anything he is tentative at times, it has been the biggest criticism of his game, particularly his brief NHL appearances. He has quite a bit of skill, but he does not assert himself offensively and seems to be too cautious in a game skewed toward the defensive side.

We do seem to be fixated on it, last year it was Timmins and now this cat

But more and more i read about Kam i just get Grigs vibes ...i really want to be wrong about this

 

[Pokecheque]

We do seem to be fixated on it, last year it was Timmins and now this cat

But more and more i read about Kam i just get Grigs vibes ...i really want to be wrong about this

Why? I'm around 50/50 when it comes to his NHL chances but from what little I've seen he's not some pillow-soft perimeter guy with a suspect work ethic.

Which reminds me...Joe Colborne...WTF!?

 

[agentblack]

Why? I'm around 50/50 when it comes to his NHL chances but from what little I've seen he's not some pillow-soft perimeter guy with a suspect work ethic.

Which reminds me...Joe Colborne...WTF!?

idk , i ll admit its my racism for lack of a better word coming into play

 

[Foppa2118]

Not a single highlight there showed off any speed... Kamenev is a below average skater and at his age, he is very unlikely to turn it into a strength. It is very rare for a player beyond the age of 17/18 to go from bad skater to elite (Point is clearly an exception). You can see below average skaters improve to average on a pretty consistent basis, but it normally happens during early years in development. If a player is past 20-21-22... they don't tend to dramatically improve.

Just like with Jost, you're argument for a player not improving their skating, always seems to be that they're unlikely to go from a below average skater to elite. Except nobody ever has the expectation of them going from below average to elite, and it's not necessary for them to do so to have success in the NHL.

 

[RockLobster]

Just like with Jost, you're argument for a player not improving their skating, always seems to be that they're unlikely to go from a below average skater to elite. Except nobody ever has the expectation of them going from below average to elite, and it's not necessary for them to do so to have success in the NHL.

Hmm...

Not a single highlight there showed off any speed... Kamenev is a below average skater and at his age, he is very unlikely to turn it into a strength. It is very rare for a player beyond the age of 17/18 to go from bad skater to elite (Point is clearly an exception). You can see below average skaters improve to average on a pretty consistent basis, but it normally happens during early years in development. If a player is past 20-21-22... they don't tend to dramatically improve.

I think we need to break it down.

Not a single highlight there showed off any speed... Kamenev is a below average skater and at his age, he is very unlikely to turn it into a strength.

You can see below average skaters improve to average on a pretty consistent basis, but it normally happens during early years in development.

If a player is past 20-21-22... they don't tend to dramatically improve.

So he makes 1 mention of it being rare to go from a bad-to-elite skater, juxtaposed against 3 varying statements about how it's rare for a player to go from skating being below average to even average, and your argument is how he's claiming it's "rare for a player to go from a below average skater to elite"?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Just like with Jost, you're argument for a player not improving their skating, always seems to be that they're unlikely to go from a below average skater to elite. Except nobody ever has the expectation of them going from below average to elite, and it's not necessary for them to do so to have success in the NHL.

I think Hench has done a very good job of explaining why Jost will have trouble being a very good C in the league.

 

[Foppberg]

I think writing off a players ability to play center, who just turned 20 years old a few months ago, is a tad bit premature.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I think writing off a players ability to play center, who just turned 20 years old a few months ago, is a tad bit premature.

I haven’t written him off. But Hench really does have a point. How many sub 6’ top 6 C are there that aren’t elite skaters? Not many. Again that’s not to say he can’t and won’t play C in the NHL but it is a concern going forwards.

 

[Foppa2118]

Hmm...

I think we need to break it down.

So he makes 1 mention of it being rare to go from a bad-to-elite skater, juxtaposed against 3 varying statements about how it's rare for a player to go from skating being below average to even average, and your argument is how he's claiming it's "rare for a player to go from a below average skater to elite"?

It was said twice basically, also saying he's unlikely to turn his speed into a strength. It doesn't have to be a strength or elite. It doesn't even need to be part of the conversation. He's made this same argument multiple times about Jost. It's a way to counter the idea that Jost/Kamanev can improve their skating to an acceptable level, by characterizing that argument to the extreme (make it elite/strength) and arguing against that.

I think Hench has done a very good job of explaining why Jost will have trouble being a very good C in the league.

I haven't seen one good argument as to why the 12th youngest player in the NHL last year (six months older than Nolan Patrick) who missed training camp due to a groin injury, then had a knee injury when he came back, can't play center in the NHL. The only thing I've seen are biased arguments from biased individuals that didn't like the Avs picking Jost to begin with.

I haven’t written him off. But Hench really does have a point. How many sub 6’ top 6 C are there that aren’t elite skaters? Not many. Again that’s not to say he can’t and won’t play C in the NHL but it is a concern going forwards.

Joe Pavelski, Casey Cizikas, Derek MacKenzie, and Brayden Point are all sub 6'0" players that improved their skating enough to become good NHLers.

Also, Jost was 5'11" at his draft combine, he could be pushing 5'11.5" by now we don't know. How much difference is there really between someone 5'11.5" and good players who are 6'0". It's certainly not some imaginary line that seperates players from being good NHLers or not.

Stastny, Krejci, Stepan, and Marcus Kruger are all 6'0" and improved their skating enough to NHL standards to become good NHLers.

This is why characterizing Jost or Kamenev as not being able to become elite skaters needs to be corrected. Because people then conflate elite skaters, with good skaters, and average skaters, and start to think someone can't improve their skating enough to play in the NHL, or play center.

There's no reason to even bring "elite" into the conversation. Both Kamenev and Jost can improve to average or even slightly above average if they have the dedication to working on it, and have success in the NHL at center.