Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round V (MOD WARNING: BEHAVE!)

[TheKrebsCycle]

This thread has gone insane.

It's like some posters feel Toronto is biased and are purposely choosing the second best prospect for the sole purpose of trolling a few insane HF posters.

This is absolutely a factor.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I agree, posters aren't a better source than scouts. Which is why Matthews being #1 and Laine being #3 aren't an artifact of posters but scouts.

Bob has suggested a bias amongst some EU scouts, why that may be? Because one is European and the other an American most likely. Could also have to do with that Matthews is a complete player and Laine plays the more exciting brand of hockey, or a combination.

That is fine. But again Matthews played in Zurich this year representing Europe. He is on the CSB list as an European prospect. Mckenzie said this, due to Dubois and Tkachuk 2 NA prospects. Not for Matthews. And again. He did say this 10 scouts who have been impeccable sources for the most comprehensive draft list.

two of the 10 said Laine is now No. 1 on their team's lists. Others suggested they had to think long and hard about their decision to keep Matthews at No. 1.

Suggesting it is anything but a slam dunk at this point.

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

Well, when he is not producing or winning in league playoffs and in WHC or WJC at the same rate as Laine with way more ice time, and people are still touting him as the CLEAR AND OBVIOUS MILES AHEAD prospect....yeah that kinda goes to the territory of overhyping.

Of course there are reasons why he isn't producing and winning as much in WHC (he's on a worse team). But you really need some creative and biased thinking to put this guy CLEARLY ahead. Guy who has made the same number of bad turnovers than Laine, hasn't been a monster two way center (he shouldn't be, it's adults tournament and he is facing seasoned professionals of the highest level...it should not be the expectation), and is not offensively as productive and dynamic as Laine has been.

Results speak for themselves. Matthews is a different player than Laine, and Matthews IS a franchise center prospect for very good reasons. He'll be an absolute gem for anyone who gets him.

But to put him clearly ahead of a player who has clearly outproduced and out won him since december 2015, and who is 8 months (full season) younger at the age of their most rapid development...that's just completely unwarranted. There is no logical reason to do this, the only argument I hear is "but but...he was the favorite for so long and consensus this and that and it says so on the internet. Oh and intangibles and little things, would someone PLEASE think about the little things". Well, Laine is saying something else on the ice since december.

I won't argue that Laine would be as good of a skater as Matthews is now, I won't argue that Laine would be as good of a two way player now either. Probably will never be, he's a winger and Matthews is a center.

I don't understand why any of you would argue that Matthews is somehow close as a shooter and a goal scorer. He isn't. He's good at that too, but he's not Laine. To argue against that is pure bias or sheer ignorance...one of those "I read it online but never actually seen them play".

To sum it all up, this is what I've tried to say the whole time I have been on here, so I'll stop trying to compare them with worse English skills than you.

 

[Cotton]

That is fine. But again Matthews played in Zurich this year representing Europe. He is on the CSB list as an European prospect. Mckenzie said this, due to Dubois and Tkachuk 2 NA prospects. Not for Matthews. And again. He did say this 10 scouts who have been impeccable sources for the most comprehensive draft list.



Suggesting it is anything but a slam dunk at this point.

I'd say that's a slam dunk, if we were to assume that's the general feel amongst scouts and triple those results to represent the 30 NHL franchises than 24 of 30 clubs (or scouts) would pick Auston. Realistically it's probably higher than that.

 

[BB88]

Laine will have an impact similar to that of Taylor Hall imo. Racks up the points but not enough overall impact on the game to make a bad team good.

I doubt there's a single forward who could cover for such a defense.

This thread has gone insane.

It's like some posters feel Toronto is biased and are purposely choosing the second best prospect for the sole purpose of trolling a few insane HF posters.

Why does it always have to be some have something against Toronto or something?
These 2 prospects are very, very close to each other so some can just prefer Laine over Matthews, it shouldn't be called Leafs hate or something if they do, even scouts have a hard time picking the clear winner of the 2, if you read the current list they say they have to think about it for a long time, few scouts on Bobs lists have Laine ahead of Matthews and last week or so Bob tweeted about some European scouts preferring over Matthews.

Matthews will go 1st overall, he is that level of talent and the Leafs need him, but I feel that Laine is also worthy of 1st overall and he's a perfect fit for Winnipeg, making this draft have 2 1st overall talents, so this is a win-win for these teams.

There's that good Eichel-Barkov-Matthews poll to show that there's no Leafs hate with Matthews.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2058783&page=10


This current thread has gone for weeks and weeks, pre lottery and there were posters who prefered Laine over Matthews.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I'd say that's a slam dunk, if we were to assume that's the general feel amongst scouts and triple those results to represent the 30 NHL franchises than 24 of 30 clubs (or scouts) would pick Auston. Realistically it's probably higher than that.

That's your opinion. But Mckenzie's quote stated NHL scouts opinions had to think long and hard to keep Matthews at #1. Regardless. Any team that gets either Laine or Matthews can't miss with either pick. Both will be great picks. It's really that simple.

 

[NarcoPolo]

Personally have read these threads but not posted much but will commend on the bolded. Across all the Matthews and Laine threads there have been very little Jets posters posting compared to the total. The ones that have IMO have been saying how happy they are to be picking one of these guys. Of the others, most that I have seen have posted that of the two, you really have to pick the #1C if your're picking #1 (myself included).

I think it's incorrect to say that there a large group of Jets fans pumping up Laine from what I've been reading. Happy to get one of the 3 mostly.

For the record I never said there was a large group. Just some. Seems like moreso trolling than anything though tbh.

 

[Legion34]

Have watched both during wjc and the games in whc. I reviewed
Matthews goals and he seems to have more offensive tools at his disposal.

First: of matthews 24 goals 5 were pp goals. He shows more varied ways of scoring. He scored a bunch off wrist shots on the rush. A few cross crease passes. Some deflections. Some
Where he out fought the d and slammed home rebounds in front of the net. He also goes to the dirty areas way more than laine (from what i have seen).

Doesnt mean he will outscore laine. Laine might use his more limited tools better. Matt hughes was the champ for years by picking a guy up, slamming him and punching. Everyone knew what he was going to do. No one could stop him

I will be much more nervous if we pick laine myself boom bust potential is massive

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

It would be great if we could know which scouts are being polled for Bob's list. There are so many different factors that play a part, as in primary focus of scouting (defence, offence, goal tending) area of focus (Europe, SEL, WHL, OHL, QMJHL, NA) organization etc..

Every organization has a vast array of scouts, each will have varying opinions on certain players. It all boils down to a consensus when we talk about 1st round players.

Lets assume Bob Mckenzie says 2 out of 10 are Laine, 2 out of 10 thought hard but picked Matthews, and 6 said Matthews. The consensus among whomever these scouts are, have Matthews 1st oa.

This same methodology will apply to each NHL organization. Poll their scouts, weighting each opinion based on knowledge of said player. I'm sure there are a lot of organizations that will have a number of their scouts with Laine ahead of Matthews, but if 6-8 out of every 10 scouts are saying Matthews then its a near guarantee he will go first overall.

 

[Cotton]

That's your opinion. But Mckenzie's quote stated NHL scouts opinions had to think long and hard to keep Matthews at #1. Regardless. Any team that gets either Laine or Matthews can't miss with either pick. Both will be great picks. It's really that simple.

No, the sample group of scouts he happened to speak with (of which the EU scouts are possibly biased towards Laine mind you) declared Matthews the clear #1 indicated by 8 of 10 picking him. That's what you call a majority.

I also consider CSS and ISS credible sources, both of which also have Matthews the clear #1. The only people who apparently can't grasp that Matthews>Laine is Mckeens and a fringe group of HFposters.

Both will be good picks, absolutely, one of them is just better than the other... It's really that simple.

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

Simple Analogy's from GuruPitka


You are bidding on your showcase showdown and Drew Carey asks for your bid, you look to the crowd and 200 people scream $25,000!!!!! 25 people scream $15,000!!! what do you bid?

You are planning your bachelor party, 8 of your best bros want to go to Vegas yet 2 want to go to Niagara. Where do you go??????

You are buying a car for $25,000!!!! 8 reviews said the BMW is better and 2 reviews say to get the Volvo!!! which one do you buy???

 

[Captain Timo]

I think Ray Ferraro just said something very, very worthwhile.

In a discussion with Gord Miller, the discussion of the top 3 arose. Ferraro said that the top 3 is pretty much solidified, and that it was the order that Matthews/Laine/Puljujarvi would go in the draft that was up for question.

Went on to say that he would take Matthews first, and he isn't sure about who he'd take second. He said that it would be really difficult to pass on the goal scoring ability of Laine, but also said he wonders about Laine's ability to transition. He noted that as we've seen in the NHL playoffs right now, time and space is so minimal, and that a lot of the stuff Laine likes to do won't be an option for him in the NHL, specifically the playoffs. He'll have to adapt, and the question is how well he can adapt to having less space. Using such argument, Ferraro said that there is no doubt that Puljujarvi can play his game at a fast pace, so he carries an advantage over Laine in that regard.

Thought this analogy was very interesting, considering I agreed on basically all of it.

 

[Territory]

I think Ray Ferraro just said something very, very worthwhile.

In a discussion with Gord Miller, the discussion of the top 3 arose. Ferraro said that the top 3 is pretty much solidified, and that it was the order that Matthews/Laine/Puljujarvi would go in the draft that was up for question.

Went on to say that he would take Matthews first, and he isn't sure about who he'd take second. He said that it would be really difficult to pass on the goal scoring ability of Laine, but also said he wonders about Laine's ability to transition. He noted that as we've seen in the NHL playoffs right now, time and space is so minimal, and that a lot of the stuff Laine likes to do won't be an option for him in the NHL, specifically the playoffs. He'll have to adapt, and the question is how well he can adapt to having less space. Using such argument, Ferraro said that there is no doubt that Puljujarvi can play his game at a fast pace, so he carries an advantage over Laine in that regard.

Thought this analogy was very interesting, considering I agreed on basically all of it.

I agree with Ray as well. He's a smart hockey guy.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

No, the sample group of scouts he happened to speak with (of which the EU scouts are possibly biased towards Laine mind you) declared Matthews the clear #1 indicated by 8 of 10 picking him. That's what you call a majority.

I also consider CSS and ISS credible sources, both of which also have Matthews the clear #1. The only people who apparently can't grasp that Matthews>Laine is Mckeens and a fringe group of HFposters.

Both will be good picks, absolutely, one of them is just better than the other... It's really that simple.

What no one has said is that there's a big difference between the players - something that you have claimed.

Incidentally, MacKenzie also said that the majority of scouts would have taken Eichel ahead of Matthews last year (and this was on the basis of Matthews' most recent season). I'll assume you also believe it's really as simply as Eichel > Matthews.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Hold on one moment...