Atlanta Flames and Colorado Rockies

[voyageur]

I am curious why these two teams moved?

Atlanta was drawing 11 000 fans per game, which was standard at that time. They moved to Calgary, where they drew even less, until the Saddledome was built.

Colorado got the Scouts instead of an expansion team, with Seattle. Their attendance was low, around 8 000 per year. And they were perpetually bad. But why did the NHL want New Jersey, apparently as early as '78, so bad, with 2 New York teams already? I read that Ottawa unsuccessfully tried to buy the team before Mc Mullen, but were turned down. Is it because of the Civic Centre, which was 10 000 seats if I remember correctly? Colorado only lasted 6 years, which I guess is longer than Cleveland. Or K.C. The 2nd time they got a team it was an instant winner and well supported. Was that the difference?

In 20 years, 70-90, the only American teams to win the Cup were Boston, Philly and the Isles, so it was a different league they were in.

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[ICM1970]

As a kid growing up in Ottawa, I recall in about 1981 and very early 1982 talk of raising the roof of the Civic Centre in order to make it big enough for NHL seating capacity. As you say, that arena was not quite suitable for NHL standards and thus Ottawa was not successful in bringing the Rockies franchise here. A little while later, there was again talk of renovating the Nepean Sportsplex's main arena (here in the west end) so that the St. Louis Blues could possibly relocate here as well. The Civic Centre was of course used by the new Senators franchise for it's first two or three seasons as the brand new facility in Kanata was under construction (although the franchise was granted when it was still being debated about whether or not to rezone the land Bruce Firestone wanted to build the arena on from agricultural to commercial development).

 

[Spirit of 67]

FWIW, I remember hearing something back at the time that they could make money in Atlanta but they could make a lot more in Calgary.
I was 12 or so at the time.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

The move involving the Colorado Rockies was complex and involved multiple potential legal matters. The owner at the time was a cable exec who was based in upstate New York (IIRC) and attempted to renegotiate a lease from the city. The Rockies' team was losing money and the Meadowlands facility was available. The Rangers/MSG were having financial issues and sought city assistance but used the possible relocation to New Jersey as one variable; being within their own territory they didn't need NHL approval for a move. There was a highly recognized preseason game with the NYR and Flyers that was sold out at the Meadowlands, too. Much of the NHL preferred to have a team in Colorado rather than New Jersey due to geographical balance. The Rockies' owner supposedly was going to utilize an anti-trust lawsuit against the NHL if he was denied a move. As time advanced, he sold the franchise to John McMullen and was compensated for his losses through the sale. The Rangers, Flyers and Islanders were within the 50-mile territorial boundaries of the Meadowlands and were ultimately compensated for the relocation. As a side note, the Winnipeg Jets received financial assistance for being part of the divisional relocation due to the move. to aid with travel costs.

 

[ICM1970]

Concerning the fan support for the Rockies, I recall reading in Don Cherry's first book (written in 1983) that they were getting the fans in (average crowd size went up during Cherry's one season behind the Rockies' bench, but still last in league), but what was frustrating though was the lack of a decent team. Cherry mentioned that he even had referees and linesmen talk to him after the games that they felt bad because if the goaltending were that good bit better (along with the team overall), that the Rockies could really be that very good franchise.

 

[blood gin]

As a kid growing up in Ottawa, I recall in about 1981 and very early 1982 talk of raising the roof of the Civic Centre in order to make it big enough for NHL seating capacity. As you say, that arena was not quite suitable for NHL standards and thus Ottawa was not successful in bringing the Rockies franchise here. A little while later, there was again talk of renovating the Nepean Sportsplex's main arena (here in the west end) so that the St. Louis Blues could possibly relocate here as well. The Civic Centre was of course used by the new Senators franchise for it's first two or three seasons as the brand new facility in Kanata was under construction (although the franchise was granted when it was still being debated about whether or not to rezone the land Bruce Firestone wanted to build the arena on from agricultural to commercial development).

That seems pretty feasible. Because it sat (sits) 10,000 as it is. All you guys could've done is bring it up to what...14,000 and you probably could've gotten a team sooner. It wouldn't have been all that big an endeavor it seems. What was the hold up?

 

[ICM1970]

That seems pretty feasible. Because it sat (sits) 10,000 as it is. All you guys could've done is bring it up to what...14,000 and you probably could've gotten a team sooner. It wouldn't have been all that big an endeavor it seems. What was the hold up?

As I was about 11-12 years old at the time, I would not be able to recall the specifics of what held up an idea like that (cost or how the rink was built, etc). Ultimately, the idea was abandoned. Because the place shares the same space as the football stadium, that likely contributed to making that type of enlargement not realistic.

 

[blood gin]

As I was about 11-12 years old at the time, I would not be able to recall the specifics of what held up an idea like that (cost or how the rink was built, etc). Ultimately, the idea was abandoned. Because the place shares the same space as the football stadium, that likely contributed to making that type of enlargement not realistic.

ah. Ok yes I see. Very unique setup to the building. Had no idea. Thought it was a standalone structure

Seeing it on TV years ago for Sens games it just basically always looked like...2/3rds of an arena. Seemed like the seating was just a plain bowl design behind the nets and on one side (like the Nassau Coliseum, old barn type rink) but on one side it was just like some high school high rises. Maybe enough to seat a hundred people. And a giant wall

 

[ICM1970]

ah. Ok yes I see. Very unique setup to the building. Had no idea. Thought it was a standalone structure

Seeing it on TV years ago for Sens games it just basically always looked like...2/3rds of an arena. Seemed like the seating was just a plain bowl design behind the nets and on one side (like the Nassau Coliseum, old barn type rink) but on one side it was just like some high school high rises. Maybe enough to seat a hundred people. And a giant wall

You are right about the wall on the one side of the place. That might not have been an issue at all when the place was first constructed in 1967, as it would have been that very decent and modern new place for the new Junior A team then and even for the WHA team (the Nationals in 1972-73). Seating capacity for an NHL team would likely have been another matter altogether and likely not entered into the minds of people in terms of attracting an expansion team (not until 1992) or a franchise getting ready to move from another city.

BTW, when the serious renovations were done to the facility a few short years ago (it is now TD Place), the workers discovered that the overhanging steel beams from 1967 were really starting to rot away and would have become a potential hazard within a relatively short time if they were not completely removed and replaced.

 

[sr edler]

Cherry mentioned that he even had referees and linesmen talk to him after the games that they felt bad because if the goaltending were that good bit better (along with the team overall), that the Rockies could really be that very good franchise.

... The same old blame game. If Hardy Åström had lived under more Biblical times, say somewhere in or around the Tigris-Euphrates Delta, I am most positive that the villagers in Hardy's village would have put all their sins on him instead of their least preferable goat, subsequently sending him out in the desert all on his own.

And the word we know today as scapegoat would instead have been known as scapehardy.

I wonder if Cherry still has recurring nightmares about the "Swedish Sieve"? I also like the line that the Rockies would have been a very good franchise if the overall team was "a good bit better". Yeah, probably. But that applies to all teams.

 

[Doctor No]

Agreed on Astrom - never forget that Cherry's a professional storyteller, and there's no fun telling a boring story. At the time of the book, he was also continuing to build his brand on tales of Astrom.

Goaltender's an easy scapegoat in hockey - we get too much credit when the team does well, and we get too much blame when the team doesn't.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Like all good storytellers, Don Cherry never let the truth get in the way of a good story .

 

[ICM1970]

Agreed on Astrom - never forget that Cherry's a professional storyteller, and there's no fun telling a boring story. At the time of the book, he was also continuing to build his brand on tales of Astrom.

Goaltender's an easy scapegoat in hockey - we get too much credit when the team does well, and we get too much blame when the team doesn't.

I can agree with the idea of not completely laying the blame at Astrom's feet (and likely Cherry himself would do so as well). Astrom was one among many players that Rockies GM Ray Miron pushed to have at the NHL level when they really were not suitable (Doug Berry was another and Cherry had one or a couple of stories about him as well).

 

[Nino33]

... The same old blame game. If Hardy Åström had lived under more Biblical times, say somewhere in or around the Tigris-Euphrates Delta, I am most positive that the villagers in Hardy's village would have put all their sins on him instead of their least preferable goat, subsequently sending him out in the desert all on his own.

And the word we know today as scapegoat would instead have been known as scapehardy.

I wonder if Cherry still has recurring nightmares about the "Swedish Sieve"? I also like the line that the Rockies would have been a very good franchise if the overall team was "a good bit better". Yeah, probably. But that applies to all teams.

I watched him play and thought he wasn't an NHL quality goalie, but looked at eliteprospects just now to refresh my memory thinking "maybe he was good somewhere else/maybe he played well for Sweden in international competition" - I don't see any evidence of that Hardy Åström at eliteprospects.com

 

[Nino33]

I can agree with the idea of not completely laying the blame at Astrom's feet (and likely Cherry himself would do so as well). Astrom was one among many players that Rockies GM Ray Miron pushed to have at the NHL level when they really were not suitable (Doug Berry was another and Cherry had one or a couple of stories about him as well).

That's basically it, it's not complicated

 

[double5son10]

I grew up on Rockie Hockey. They used to practice at my local rink. Loved going to games for their carnival-like atmosphere but they were an impossible team to cheer for. They wouldn't develop anyone, and whatever veteran stars came in were without fail shipped out again in no time flat. The roster turned over constantly, just upheaval every season. Look at all their 1st rounders: Wilf Paiemant traded at age 24, Paul Gardner at 22, Barry Beck at 22 (I cried as a kid when that one happened, for a bunch of spare parts), or Rob Ramage at 23. We got a season and a half of Lanny before he was gone. Van Boxmeer's another former 1st that didn't hang around for long, traded for an aging Rene Robert, who lasted a season and change. Cherry can bemoan Hardy all he wishes but it wasn't like any of the other goalies the Rockies cycled through provided them any lasting quality. Anybody above replacement level, like Chico Resch or Doug Favell, were on the back 9 when they came to Colorado. And it wasn't just the unstable roster, as the Rockies had a new coach every season of their existence. I'll always feel Ray Miron is one of the worst GMs to ever disgrace the office. His achievements in minor-league hockey notwithstanding, ol' Ray flat out sucked at his job. Just constant turmoil with no identity. So yes, attendance was sparse and the lamenting for their exit east was rather muted.

 

[tony d]

I have heard the Ottawa getting the Rockies story before. Got to wonder who gets that 2nd expansion team for 1992 in that case. Maybe Seattle gets a team back then instead of now.

 

[voyageur]

I have heard the Ottawa getting the Rockies story before. Got to wonder who gets that 2nd expansion team for 1992 in that case. Maybe Seattle gets a team back then instead of now.

Seattle was supposed to get an expansion team with Colorado, roughly at the same time the MLB went to Seattle and Toronto. Curious why that process fell through. I think Cleveland and Kansas City's instability. Pittsburgh's as well, who were also rumoured to Seattle too. It certainly would have made sense, to expand to Seattle, as Winnipeg was against being in the Smythe, but had no choice, as the Westernmost central franchise, though the NHL had no geographical semblance in its divisions until 1981-82. I wonder if geography was the factor in Atlanta moving. Maybe Toronto would have moved into the Adams earlier. Though I am not sure Harold Ballard cared, as long as he had exclusivity in Ontario and on HNIC. Certainly would have changed the map of hockey. May have affected the WHA merger. I didn't know Ottawa had sought a franchise in the 70s, I can't imagine they had the support of either the greedy Ballard and Molson family.

 

[streitz]

Calgary drew less because their new arena only had like 6000 seats.

 

[streitz]

... The same old blame game. If Hardy Åström had lived under more Biblical times, say somewhere in or around the Tigris-Euphrates Delta, I am most positive that the villagers in Hardy's village would have put all their sins on him instead of their least preferable goat, subsequently sending him out in the desert all on his own.

And the word we know today as scapegoat would instead have been known as scapehardy.

I wonder if Cherry still has recurring nightmares about the "Swedish Sieve"? I also like the line that the Rockies would have been a very good franchise if the overall team was "a good bit better". Yeah, probably. But that applies to all teams.

Maybe Astrom should have made some saves if he didn't want Cherry to bully him.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

With regards to the Flames, their issues were two-fold. Their owner was Tom Cousins, who was a major real estate developed in Atlanta. At the time of the sale, he was bleeding money from some of his construction projects, especially due to the state of the American economy in the late '70s. Beyond that, salaries went up due to the ongoing talent competition with the WHA. On the ice, the Flames were never worldbeaters. Their playoff record was 2-16 in their 6 playoff appearances, and their best regular season finishes were 3rd place finishes in the Patrick Division, which led attendance to decline. The best offer Cousins got for the team was Skalbania's $16M offer and he took it. So, in short, it was a confluence of the poor economy, Cousins's construction losses, and the raise in salaries combined with declining attendance that ultimately led to the sale and relocation.

 

[ICM1970]

I grew up on Rockie Hockey. They used to practice at my local rink. Loved going to games for their carnival-like atmosphere but they were an impossible team to cheer for. They wouldn't develop anyone, and whatever veteran stars came in were without fail shipped out again in no time flat. The roster turned over constantly, just upheaval every season. Look at all their 1st rounders: Wilf Paiemant traded at age 24, Paul Gardner at 22, Barry Beck at 22 (I cried as a kid when that one happened, for a bunch of spare parts), or Rob Ramage at 23. We got a season and a half of Lanny before he was gone. Van Boxmeer's another former 1st that didn't hang around for long, traded for an aging Rene Robert, who lasted a season and change. Cherry can bemoan Hardy all he wishes but it wasn't like any of the other goalies the Rockies cycled through provided them any lasting quality. Anybody above replacement level, like Chico Resch or Doug Favell, were on the back 9 when they came to Colorado. And it wasn't just the unstable roster, as the Rockies had a new coach every season of their existence. I'll always feel Ray Miron is one of the worst GMs to ever disgrace the office. His achievements in minor-league hockey notwithstanding, ol' Ray flat out sucked at his job. Just constant turmoil with no identity. So yes, attendance was sparse and the lamenting for their exit east was rather muted.

Wilf Paiement was part of the compensation sent to the Leafs for Lanny McDonald (believe that Joel Quennville was also sent to the Leafs as well in that deal). Barry Beck ended up getting sent to the New York Rangers because he dared to ask Armand Pohan and Ray Miron for the kind of money that they were paying stiffs in Fort Worth (the Rockies farm club) who could not check their grandmothers. Another of Don Cherry's stories about Rockie Hockey was that in a private meeting with Arthur Imperatore (the Rockies' owner and trucking magnate) was that Imperatore asked Don his honest assessment of Ray Miron as a GM. Cherry said he did not want to speak about Miron behind his back but Imperatore insisted and Cherry simply said that he thought Miron was basically for the birds as far as NHL GMs were concerned. Surprisingly, Imperatore agreed but then said that he really did not want to get rid of Miron as he basically left the running of the club on a day to day basis to his son in law Armand Pohan and therefore did not want to interfere with and potentially upset his son in law.

 

[McGarnagle]

Unrelated question re: the Rockies, but not worth starting a new thread for.

When the MLB gave an expansion team to Denver in 1991 and they chose the name Colorado Rockies, was there any push back by the New Jersey Devils organization? Did they have to buy out the trademark on the name, or did it belong to the city of Denver when they left in 82? Considering Denver was angling for a hockey team at that point as well (eventually to be realized in 1995), was there any feeling that they should give the baseball team some other name and save Rockies for their next hockey team? If the baseball team didn't start play in 1993, do the Avs become the Colorado Rockies when they left Quebec?

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Unrelated question re: the Rockies, but not worth starting a new thread for.

When the MLB gave an expansion team to Denver in 1991 and they chose the name Colorado Rockies, was there any push back by the New Jersey Devils organization? Did they have to buy out the trademark on the name, or did it belong to the city of Denver when they left in 82? Considering Denver was angling for a hockey team at that point as well (eventually to be realized in 1995), was there any feeling that they should give the baseball team some other name and save Rockies for their next hockey team? If the baseball team didn't start play in 1993, do the Avs become the Colorado Rockies when they left Quebec?

Devils owner John McMullen was also the Houston Astros owner at the time Denver was awarded an expansion franchise. As I was still a big baseball fan at that time and followed the expansion process, I never read or heard of any objections from McMullen over the use of the Rockies name. Maybe McMullen and Denver's ownership group agreed on a transfer of the Rockies name behind closed doors for a price.

 

[McGarnagle]

Devils owner John McMullen was also the Houston Astros owner at the time Denver was awarded an expansion franchise. As I was still a big baseball fan at that time and followed the expansion process, I never read or heard of any objections from McMullen over the use of the Rockies name. Maybe McMullen and Denver's ownership group agreed on a transfer of the Rockies name behind closed doors for a price.

I tried to look it up, and all I could find was that most of the fans expected them to take the name Denver Bears after their old long-time minor league club.