Confirmed with Link: Athanasiou signed 1/$1.3875m

[Henkka]

At last season he had two games with +18.5min.

So it's 10 games 8+5 = 13 points, +4, 40 shots with 1st line ice-time.

Only game where he didn't score was the latest against Tampa Bay.

2 games more with +19min icetime. 0+2=2 points, +1, 7 shots.

Sample size gets growing.

12 games, 8+7=15 points, +5, 47 shots on goal. (on games where he did get +18.5min IT)

 

[Winger98]

2 games more with +19min icetime. 0+2=2 points, +1, 7 shots.

Sample size gets growing.

12 games, 8+7=15 points, +5, 47 shots on goal. (on games where he did get +18.5min IT)

you're still putting the cart before the horse regardless of sample size. If he plays well and plays hard, he's going to get more minutes. By the same token, he should put up more points when he's playing hard and playing well because the natural talent has always been there.

Athanasiou reminds me of a lot of second tier scorers. When they're on, they'll eat minutes and produce. When they're not, you can drop'em down the lineup and still maybe catch some lightening because the talent is always there.

 

[Redder Winger]

you're still putting the cart before the horse regardless of sample size. If he plays well and plays hard, he's going to get more minutes. By the same token, he should put up more points when he's playing hard and playing well because the natural talent has always been there.

Athanasiou reminds me of a lot of second tier scorers. When they're on, they'll eat minutes and produce. When they're not, you can drop'em down the lineup and still maybe catch some lightening because the talent is always there.

And you're ignoring the gamelogs and line matches.

He was scoring at a high clip earlier this year.
Then he got jettisoned to Line 4 all of the sudden, despite production.

He went from the guy who was lining up beside Larkin and sometimes doubleshifting as the C for L4 to the guy who was on L4 and sometimes got a shift with Larkin or Z. Then he had the bad game with Larkin in Edmonton and he was in the doghouse for a month.

Thing is, Larkin also had a bad game that night. Lots of guys had a bad game that night. Only one guy icetime reduced.

More recently, it's tough to argue that he received more icetime because he played well.

The plan was Bertuzzi with Z and Mantha with Larkin, but Mantha got hurt and then Athanasiou and Larkin got hot and the team won 3 straight.

So AA got bumped into the top 6 (or even the top line some nights) and, like he did earlier this year, he responded.

He picked up two more assists today. So his stats at 18+minutes are now:
10 games 7 goals 4 assists 11 points +4 41 shots
Red Wings record during those games:
7-2-1.

He was perhaps the best forward on the ice today for Detroit.

 

[Winger98]

And you're ignoring the gamelogs and line matches.

He was scoring at a high clip earlier this year.
Then he got jettisoned to Line 4 all of the sudden, despite production.

He went from the guy who was lining up beside Larkin and sometimes doubleshifting as the C for L4 to the guy who was on L4 and sometimes got a shift with Larkin or Z. Then he had the bad game with Larkin in Edmonton and he was in the doghouse for a month.

Thing is, Larkin also had a bad game that night. Lots of guys had a bad game that night. Only one guy icetime reduced.

More recently, it's tough to argue that he received more icetime because he played well.

The plan was Bertuzzi with Z and Mantha with Larkin, but Mantha got hurt and then Athanasiou and Larkin got hot and the team won 3 straight.

So AA got bumped into the top 6 (or even the top line some nights) and, like he did earlier this year, he responded.

He picked up two more assists today. So his stats at 18+minutes are now:
10 games 7 goals 4 assists 11 points +4 41 shots
Red Wings record during those games:
7-2-1.

He was perhaps the best forward on the ice today for Detroit.

Yeah, that 14 game stretch or so where he was a -12 or so and put up 4 points. Maybe, just maybe, Athanasiou was earning that descrease in ice time. You're searching for some weird conspiracy where Blashill is benching the guy for no reason at random points throughout the year versus the player just being an inconsistent kid.

 

[chris05]

What really showed in Pit the other night. And it hurt the eyes..... he had no support. The wings need to find him a real centre men and a ph**** winger to play with. Nobody on the wings roster cuts.

 

[Henkka]

you're still putting the cart before the horse regardless of sample size.

I will be here informing about the sample size also after 80 or 160 games with high minutes.

My point on this whole discussion has all the time been the case, where people said that Athansiou scored in the past with at high rate/min, because he had so small icetime. So it was easy to have a productive spurt, but he can't stand higher icetime.

Now when he is having a big ice-time, his scoring per min didn't regress. Argue against that as much as you want, but for me that's f***ing PROMISING thing.

I also expected his scoring to regress, but that ain't happening. We should be nothing else than happy about that.

 

[Henkka]

This is also one interesting stat:

Minor penalties Drawn/60 - Taken/60

Sample size: at least 134 games (Athanasiou career games) from last 3 seasons.

1. Johnny Hockey, 1.36 - 0.27 = +1.09
2. Andreas Athanasiou, 1.50 - 0.42 = +1.08
3. Connor McDavid, 1.50 - 0.47 = +1.03
4. Kyle Palmieri, 1.65 - 0.68 = +0.97
5. Matthew Tkachuk, 2.43 - 1.48 = +0.95

 

[Winger98]

I will be here informing about the sample size also after 80 or 160 games with high minutes.

My point on this whole discussion has all the time been the case, where people said that Athansiou scored in the past with at high rate/min, because he had so small icetime. So it was easy to have a productive spurt, but he can't stand higher icetime.

Now when he is having a big ice-time, his scoring per min didn't regress. Argue against that as much as you want, but for me that's ****ing PROMISING thing.

I also expected his scoring to regress, but that ain't happening. We should be nothing else than happy about that.

I'm not saying it's not promising or good. I'm disagreeing with this apparent idea that Athanasiou doesn't see his ice times reduced for good reason. I'm not sure anyone doubts his natural ability, and when he's willing to really bring it every night I don't doubt he can put up numbers. It's that willingness to show up every night and play as he needs to play and is capable of playing that gets questioned, though.

The guy seems to be turning the corner a bit this season, and hopefully he gets to the point of being the sort of every day player that guys like Z and Datsyuk were and that Larkin appears to be. If he does, we have a good one. If he doesn't, we have a guy you ride hard when he's on and you don't when he's not.

 

[Redder Winger]

Yeah, that 14 game stretch or so where he was a -12 or so and put up 4 points. Maybe, just maybe, Athanasiou was earning that descrease in ice time. You're searching for some weird conspiracy where Blashill is benching the guy for no reason at random points throughout the year versus the player just being an inconsistent kid.

There is no weird conspiracy.

Blashill obviously doesn't like Athanasiou.

Athanasiou doesn't like Blashill either - as evidenced by stories that came out during the contract negotiation.

Last year, When Athanasiou was 2nd on the team in goals despite being 18th in minutes on the ice, what was the excuse for AA not playing more.

This year, when Athanasiou.

Earlier this year - in his only other high-minute playing time stretch, he had 3 games where he scored 3 goals and 2 assists.
The Red Wings went 2-0-1.

What happens?
The next game he comes out and he gets just 13 minutes. He still manages to score a goal in the OT loss.

Then the next game played 16+ minutes vs Edmonton and Detroit got throttled.

Tatar also went -4 that game. Larkin went -3.
But it was Athanasiou who got stapled to line 4.

At some point - after two years of being an extremely productive goal scorer. and being limited to a bit part.. after being promised a top 9 role during contract negotiations...at some point, you realize you're getting screwed.

People are human. You get buried on line 4 after a productive few games, it can be hard to find the motivation to go out there and bust your ass for the boss.

 

[Frk It]

Spoiler Alert - Most coaches aren't going to like Athanasiou.

 

[Redder Winger]

Spoiler Alert - Most coaches aren't going to like Athanasiou.

Right.

Spoiler alert.

Of Athanasiou and Blashill, only one belongs in the NHL.

I think we all know which one.

 

[Redder Winger]

I'm not saying it's not promising or good. I'm disagreeing with this apparent idea that Athanasiou doesn't see his ice times reduced for good reason. I'm not sure anyone doubts his natural ability, and when he's willing to really bring it every night I don't doubt he can put up numbers. It's that willingness to show up every night and play as he needs to play and is capable of playing that gets questioned, though.

The guy seems to be turning the corner a bit this season, and hopefully he gets to the point of being the sort of every day player that guys like Z and Datsyuk were and that Larkin appears to be. If he does, we have a good one. If he doesn't, we have a guy you ride hard when he's on and you don't when he's not.

Tell us the reason.

If you KNOW why Athanasiou got his icetime cut earlier this year.

Tell us.

Here's the game log.
Andreas Athanasiou 2017-18 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

What did Athanasiou in that win over Buffalo to see his icetime chopped by 5 minutes/
He assisted on the game winning goal as Detroit won their second straight game.
He recorded his 5th point in 3 games.

So if you think there's a reason - let's hear it. If not, stop acting like other people are coming up with conspiracies.

Sample size or whatever...
But when Athanasiou plays big minutes, the Red Wings are 7-2-1.
Athanasiou has 11 points in those games.

Maybe, if Blashill was as concerned with winning as he claims to be, he'd figure out how to keep AA playing big minutes and develop more schemes to get him the puck.

AA and Mantha should both be playing 17-18-19 minutes a night.

But you realize what Blashill is doing right?

He's switching AA and Mantha back and forth from line 1/2 to line 4.

Yesterday was the first game where Mantha AND Athanasiou both played quite a bit. Mainly due to the injuries of Helm and Abby.

Prior to that, Mantha was playing in AA's role on Line 4.


Why are two of our best players rotating between Line 1 and Line 4 -- and a 12-14 minute a night role?

He's got the Zetterberg line, where Bertuzzi has often resided lately.
The Larkin line.
The Nielsen line.
And the 4th line.

When AA gets removed from Larkin's hip, then what? Back to line 4 for Mantha?

You think this is reasonable?

 

[Frk It]

Right.

Spoiler alert.

Of Athanasiou and Blashill, only one belongs in the NHL.

I think we all know which one.

I agree that Blashill isn't a good coach and should be gone. Just don't be surprised when the next coach is reluctant to give AA big minutes like you want. Coaches don't like one dimensional wingers who give inconsistent effort.

It's the same reason why Vanek and Hudler are productive players but float around free agency every year.

 

[Winger98]

Tell us the reason.

If you KNOW why Athanasiou got his icetime cut earlier this year.

Tell us.

Maybe, if Blashill was as concerned with winning as he claims to be, he'd figure out how to keep AA playing big minutes and develop more schemes to get him the puck.

AA and Mantha should both be playing 17-18-19 minutes a night.

But you realize what Blashill is doing right?

He's switching AA and Mantha back and forth from line 1/2 to line 4.

I have, you just don't like it. Athanasiou (and Mantha) are incredibly talented. They are also incredibly inconsistent. Putting up an assist or a goal or going -4 isn't indicative of either player's deserving 12 minutes or 20 minutes on any particular night.

Athanasiou scoring a goal while getting twelve minutes of ice time is because he's skilled enough to pounce on that single opportunity and make it count. It doesn't mean he's playing well enough to warrant 20 minutes on that particular night.

And it's no surprise that the two guys getting shuttled back and forth are the two guys with the biggest disparities between their natural skill level and their ability/willingness to show up every night. What's Blashill doing? He's trying to get them to eliminate more of their lows and be those 20 minute players they are capable of being more often.

Want a couple of reasons for them not playing 18-20 minutes a night, every night, all season? It's Athanasiou and Mantha. They are the reasons.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Spoiler Alert - Most coaches aren't going to like Athanasiou.

Well if he keeps developing and is the AA we have seen more recently than a lot of coaches will give him minutes. You know just like Blashill is doing right now.

This criticism goes all the way back to junior. He cannot simply show up just when he wants to. He has been fantastic in that regard lately, I hope this is a major corner he has just turned as a hockey player.

 

[Redder Winger]

I agree that Blashill isn't a good coach and should be gone. Just don't be surprised when the next coach is reluctant to give AA big minutes like you want. Coaches don't like one dimensional wingers who give inconsistent effort.

It's the same reason why Vanek and Hudler are productive players but float around free agency every year.

Athanasiou may never be a Selke candidate but he's used his speed to backcheck and prevent plays often.

My major beef with AA is that he shies away from physical contact. (Demonstrated by 10 hits). He rarely initiates physical contact. Even less this year than last.

 

[Redder Winger]

Well if he keeps developing and is the AA we have seen more recently than a lot of coaches will give him minutes. You know just like Blashill is doing right now.

This criticism goes all the way back to junior. He cannot simply show up just when he wants to. He has been fantastic in that regard lately, I hope this is a major corner he has just turned as a hockey player.

AA got plenty of ice time in Barrie and Grand Rapids.

He's already a good NHLer and he should continue to improve with experience. The question is, how much?

 

[datsyukfan]

When the guy plays a lot the team wins and he produces. We all just want this team to win so maybe AA needs ice time to be fully engaged and yes that can be looked at as a problem I agree. But if that’s what it takes then just give him the minutes because when he gets him he produces and the team succeeds. Why do I care if it takes minutes for AA to be engaged, kids so talented that he should get them so give him them because we are better when he gets them. He produces at a high rate and the team wins so who cares

 

[Winger98]

When the guy plays a lot the team wins and he produces. We all just want this team to win so maybe AA needs ice time to be fully engaged and yes that can be looked at as a problem I agree. But if that’s what it takes then just give him the minutes because when he gets him he produces and the team succeeds. Why do I care if it takes minutes for AA to be engaged, kids so talented that he should get them so give him them because we are better when he gets them. He produces at a high rate and the team wins so who cares

Because at some point those bad habits will creep further and further into his game and we'll end up giving the guy 20 minutes a night to get 3-5 minutes of him caring, and the rest an unmitigated disaster. Because he won't care, he's getting what he wants regardless. At that point, just play him 12 minutes a night, still get those minutes where he's totally there and mitigate the rest where he's not.

But if he turns that corner, as it looks like he's starting to do, we have a helluva player who makes all 20 of those minutes count. Athanasiou is a guy who has the potential to be one of those game changers that we need, and hitting the lottery with him would be big.

 

[datsyukfan]

Because at some point those bad habits will creep further and further into his game and we'll end up giving the guy 20 minutes a night to get 3-5 minutes of him caring, and the rest an unmitigated disaster. Because he won't care, he's getting what he wants regardless. At that point, just play him 12 minutes a night, still get those minutes where he's totally there and mitigate the rest where he's not.

But if he turns that corner, as it looks like he's starting to do, we have a helluva player who makes all 20 of those minutes count. Athanasiou is a guy who has the potential to be one of those game changers that we need, and hitting the lottery with him would be big.

That’s what I am saying though. When the kid plays he is engaged both offensively and defensively, he’s not the best defensive player but when he plays lots he’s engaged on both ends. If you give him 12 you aren’t getting that AA because he is not engaged. What I am saying and what we have seen is when he plays lots he plays harder and is more engaged so what’s the use of playing him 12 mins to prove a point? He plays engaged when he gets 18-20 so play him that much until he shows that maybe he isn’t engaged all the time when he’s playing that much then you can make the case of proving a point but until he shows that just play him those minutes. I’ll take 20 of AA over 20 of Abby/helm any day

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That’s what I am saying though. When the kid plays he is engaged both offensively and defensively, he’s not the best defensive player but when he plays lots he’s engaged on both ends. If you give him 12 you aren’t getting that AA because he is not engaged. What I am saying and what we have seen is when he plays lots he plays harder and is more engaged so what’s the use of playing him 12 mins to prove a point? He plays engaged when he gets 18-20 so play him that much until he shows that maybe he isn’t engaged all the time when he’s playing that much then you can make the case of proving a point but until he shows that just play him those minutes. I’ll take 20 of AA over 20 of Abby/helm any day

It is the other way around though. He plays 20 minutes when he is engaged, when he is not he doesn't get ice time. It is the effort that dictates his ice time, it is that way with every guy. No he doesn't get to role over the board for 20 minutes just cause, seriously there isn't a single coach above peewee that would find the inverse of ice time distribution you are proposing acceptable.

They play him a lot when he does the right things shift in and shift out as they should. To propose this the other way isn't something I have seen in really any walk of life not just sports.Let's just give something to somebody no matter what, just because?

 

[datsyukfan]

It is the other way around though. He plays 20 minutes when he is engaged, when he is not he doesn't get ice time. It is the effort that dictates his ice time, it is that way with every guy. No he doesn't get to role over the board for 20 minutes just cause, seriously there isn't a single coach above peewee that would find the inverse of ice time distribution you are proposing acceptable.

Ya I get that, but it also can’t be a one game basis either. AA has one bad game and automatically he is down in the 10-13 range it can’t be that way it’s an 82 game season, the best player in the world Sidney Crosby is gonna have a game where he isn’t fully engaged it’s just too much to ask for a complete 82 games of that. That’s my problem with Blash a guy has 1 awful game and he’s down to 12 mins instead of just allowing them to play through it.

Not to get off topic but Even Mantha you need to give him 16-20 mins a night he needs to play to be engaged good players need that and it can’t be just one bad game automatically puts you down to 12 mins that’s the way it is with blash and our young players. It’s hurting them

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ya I get that, but it also can’t be a one game basis either. AA has one bad game and automatically he is down in the 10-13 range it can’t be that way it’s an 82 game season, the best player in the world Sidney Crosby is gonna have a game where he isn’t fully engaged it’s just too much to ask for a complete 82 games of that. That’s my problem with Blash a guy has 1 awful game and he’s down to 12 mins instead of just allowing them to play through it.

Not to get off topic but Even Mantha you need to give him 16-20 mins a night he needs to play to be engaged good players need that and it can’t be just one bad game automatically puts you down to 12 mins that’s the way it is with blash and our young players. It’s hurting them

When Crosby has a bad game it is nowhere near the level of these guys and it isn't for weeks on end.

I am a huge Mantha fan and he is getting the ice time he deserves thus far this season. Just like AA, it spikes when they are doing the right things, it goes down when they are not. As Frk It and others are trying to drive home this has nothing to do with Jeff Blashill, it has to do with each guy playing the way they can play most nights. Off nights will happen, but that isn't why or how they are being punished here. Sorry I am just not seeing that.

Mantha and AA both played nice minutes yesterday because both guys were good and that is how it should work.

 

[Redder Winger]

I have, you just don't like it. Athanasiou (and Mantha) are incredibly talented. They are also incredibly inconsistent. Putting up an assist or a goal or going -4 isn't indicative of either player's deserving 12 minutes or 20 minutes on any particular night.

Athanasiou scoring a goal while getting twelve minutes of ice time is because he's skilled enough to pounce on that single opportunity and make it count. It doesn't mean he's playing well enough to warrant 20 minutes on that particular night.

And it's no surprise that the two guys getting shuttled back and forth are the two guys with the biggest disparities between their natural skill level and their ability/willingness to show up every night. What's Blashill doing? He's trying to get them to eliminate more of their lows and be those 20 minute players they are capable of being more often.

Want a couple of reasons for them not playing 18-20 minutes a night, every night, all season? It's Athanasiou and Mantha. They are the reasons.

I disagree.
You've complete bought into the BS narratives about these guys, and it's not very fair at all to either player.

If you take an honest look at Dylan Larkin, from February of his rookie year to about March of his sophomore year, he was brutal.
Awful.
Like - he didn't belong in the NHL.

93 games 18-9-8 -35 from Feb. 10 2016 to March 1 2017.

This isn't playing 10-12 minutes a night.
This is playing 16-18 minutes a night.

But as he aimlessly skated around his own zone, failing to pick up guys as they skated and scored, never once did Blashill criticize him in the media.
You know what his lowest icetime was -- besides the game he got hurt? He had four games in the 11-12 minute range.

What does Blashill do? He sings his praises, non stop. Even though, clearly, he'd stopped skating the way he skated early in his career.

He stopped shooting the puck they way he did.

And yet, never once did Blash say, "We need Larkin to skate and shoot and play the way he can."

Instead, he praised Larkin - built his confidence. Invited him to the World Championships and gave him big minutes there.

Do I think Athanasiou and Mantha hustle the same way Larkin does?
No.
But I also think the constant questioning of their heart, character and effort is wrong-headed.

And I think Blashill is doing more to harm their development than help their development.

These guys should be taking a regular shift in the top 6.
Larkin-Athanasiou-Mantha should be getting 17-20 minutes a night.

If that means Tyler Bertuzzi plays on line 4, oh well.

 

[datsyukfan]

When Crosby has a bad game it is nowhere near the level of these guys and it isn't for weeks on end.

I am a huge Mantha fan and he is getting the ice time he deserves thus far this season. Just like AA, it spikes when they are doing the right things, it goes down when they are not. As Frk It and others are trying to drive home this has nothing to do with Jeff Blashill, it has to do with each guy playing the way they can play most nights. Off nights will happen, but that isn't why or how they are being punished here. Sorry I am just not seeing that.

Mantha and AA both played nice minutes yesterday because both guys were good and that is how it should work.

No both played big minutes because he had no helm, Abby, or glenny to go to so he had no choice but to play them big minutes and what happened they both played well and produced. Mantha was our best player until that Calgary game where he fought he literally played to not so great games and found himself on the 4th line and publicly called out by blashill. If that isn’t an immediate reaction to a game or two I dunno what else it is. That is my point, he literally has no leash on these two and every time they play bad they think there gonna be 4th line or scratched which has shown to be true