Confirmed with Link: Athanasiou re-signs, 2 years 3m/yr

[jkutswings]

Right, but it's not in a vacuum. AA had 30 ES points and played 13 ES mins a game, not 15. Vanek had 41 while playing on Vancouver and Columbus. I wouldn't describe that as "not even close" especially when you factor in that on the Canucks he spent most of his time playing with the Sedin twins.

It's also ignoring that Vanek has zero future with the Wings. His only potential is the potential to decline. Vanek honestly has little value and based on last season will probably fetch little at the deadline, especially with his NTC. He'll play sheltered minutes and put up points on a losing season. But the attitude there seemed more like "what does it hurt?"



To call the defense a dumpster fire would be an insult to dumpsters. I get that. But that's a larger problem than AA. With AA I feel like it's a bird in hand situation. And honestly using that reasoning it makes even less sense to sign Vanek. AA is a young prospect and an RFA with potential upside.

I'm just a little surprised at how many people are ready to cut bait with AA already.

I get what you're saying about Vanek - I didn't want him signed either. But related to your argument, I think that ES points is a significantly overblown statistic. I'd take 56 points over 30 points any day of the week, even if all 56 were on the power play and all 30 were even strength. For a tiebreaker of sorts, when two players are close in overall production, but one is getting it done at even strength? Sure, I can see that. But goals and assists don't help you any less in the standings if they're scored with the man advantage.

The reason I'm personally willing to cut bait with AA is that he doesn't seem any less set in his bad habits now than he was 12 months ago, so why should I expect the next 12-24 months to show a noticeable improvement?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I get what you're saying about Vanek - I didn't want him signed either. But related to your argument, I think that ES points is a significantly overblown statistic. I'd take 56 points over 30 points any day of the week, even if all 56 were on the power play and all 30 were even strength. For a tiebreaker of sorts, when two players are close in overall production, but one is getting it done at even strength? Sure, I can see that. But goals and assists don't help you any less in the standings if they're scored with the man advantage.

The reason I'm personally willing to cut bait with AA is that he doesn't seem any less set in his bad habits now than he was 12 months ago, so why should I expect the next 12-24 months to show a noticeable improvement?

Agreed. More than anything I meant that it's not like AA was padding his stats with a bunch of PP goals (which is admittedly hard to do when the PP is that awful).

As for his bad habits, who knows? Maybe the new young talent vying for his spot will get him to clamp down. Maybe a season of losing and some maturity will change his perspective. He wasn't alone in poke and hope hockey. Maybe Z should grab him by the jersey and say "kid, if only I had your size and speed... Get your shit together."

The Wings likely won't be contending for anything in the next couple seasons other than first overall draft pick. I'd be upset if they signed AA long term but I'm fine with a two year deal to see if he can live up to his potential and become a valuable part of this team.

 

[Invictus12]

I get what you're saying about Vanek - I didn't want him signed either. But related to your argument, I think that ES points is a significantly overblown statistic. I'd take 56 points over 30 points any day of the week, even if all 56 were on the power play and all 30 were even strength. For a tiebreaker of sorts, when two players are close in overall production, but one is getting it done at even strength? Sure, I can see that. But goals and assists don't help you any less in the standings if they're scored with the man advantage.

The reason I'm personally willing to cut bait with AA is that he doesn't seem any less set in his bad habits now than he was 12 months ago, so why should I expect the next 12-24 months to show a noticeable improvement?

I don't ever get the point of valuing any kind of point over another. That argument can be looked at from different angles and never really give an adequate answer. General consensus is that ES Points are better than PP Points. Okay? So if Player A and Player B both play even strength and pp but, AA gets most of his points on the PP and B gets his on ES... So, basically that means that B is better than A. However, if B is so good, why is he not lighting up the PP as well? Fact is, players can thrive in different situations and you need players that thrive in both and many other aspects of the game. Rarely you have complete packages but one isn't necessarily more important than the other.

 

[Shaman464]

I don't ever get the point of valuing any kind of point over another. That argument can be looked at from different angles and never really give an adequate answer. General consensus is that ES Points are better than PP Points. Okay? So if Player A and Player B both play even strength and pp but, AA gets most of his points on the PP and B gets his on ES... So, basically that means that B is better than A. However, if B is so good, why is he not lighting up the PP as well? Fact is, players can thrive in different situations and you need players that thrive in both and many other aspects of the game. Rarely you have complete packages but one isn't necessarily more important than the other.

Because if the PP isn't run well no ones going to feast off of those points? Detroit's PP is a great example of that. Or what if the team doesn't draw many penalties? If one team gets half the number of PP tries their players likely won't get nearly as many points.

 

[Invictus12]

Because if the PP isn't run well no ones going to feast off of those points? Detroit's PP is a great example of that. Or what if the team doesn't draw many penalties? If one team gets half the number of PP tries their players likely won't get nearly as many points.

Okay but, if your team isn't run well at ES then you run into the same problem. Hell, if Helm could shoot the puck well, he might just score 20 goals a season shorthanded because he's actually good at intercepting the puck on the PK and flying with it. That doesn't change the fact that he just isn't much of a playmaker and can't create as many opportunities on ES because teams don't take as many chances on ES.

 

[Shaman464]

Okay but, if your team isn't run well at ES then you run into the same problem. Hell, if Helm could shoot the puck well, he might just score 20 goals a season shorthanded because he's actually good at intercepting the puck on the PK and flying with it. That doesn't change the fact that he just isn't much of a playmaker and can't create as many opportunities on ES because teams don't take as many chances on ES.

ES points tend to come, even by bare probability. Because PP time represents a smaller amount of time, and because its specially run by a dedicated coach, it is more prone to seeing drastic swings.

 

[Invictus12]

ES points tend to come, even by bare probability. Because PP time represents a smaller amount of time, and because its specially run by a dedicated coach, it is more prone to seeing drastic swings.

Or possible because it also depends on whose PK you're going up against?

Overall though, I'm not even sure that, by ice-time, your team is more likely to score on a PP than it is on ES... I think it's more of a guarantee that you don't get scored against when on a PP.

 

[Ezekial]

Or possible because it also depends on whose PK you're going up against?

Overall though, I'm not even sure that, by ice-time, your team is more likely to score on a PP than it is on ES... I think it's more of a guarantee that you don't get scored against when on a PP.

The league average for PP conversion percentage is approximately ~20%, that is definitely markedly higher than your average 2 minutes at even strength.

 

[Invictus12]

The league average for PP conversion percentage is approximately ~20%, that is definitely markedly higher than your average 2 minutes at even strength.

So that's about 1 goal per 10 minutes?

 

[Ezekial]

So that's about 1 goal per 10 minutes?

Every 12 minutes. Yes. 5 goals per 60.

 

[Invictus12]

Every 12 minutes. Yes. 5 goals per 60.

Okay so your chances are doubled pretty much. Thanks for calculating! Was way off on that statement

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

these are actually apparently tears of joy which made me laugh so I am sharing this

Are we actually discussing hockey for like 10 consecutive posts in a nice reasonable manner. It is why I joined here and what winning hockey discussions used to look like... Hopefully we can get back there soon.

 

[Oddbob]

Omg god you guy's cry enough! You all all ready knew that Rass or little Z was not playing on this team this year if you thought other wise I feel sorry for you. Baring Hank no longer playing this is our team guy's. I'm fine with it.

Why are Zadina, and Rasmussen guaranteed not to make this team? Larkin made it to the NHL, 1 season after being drafted, and he was drafted lower than both Zadina and Rasmussen. I also remember people complaining or thinking he wouldn't make it that season, either, because we had x,y and z on our roster. If they are overwhelmingly ready they will make it. Sometimes I think Red Wings fans think players don't make it just for the heck of it, in the organizations view. When in reality, we haven't had any top 10 picks since 1990, and top 10s make it to the show quicker than those drafted later, in most cases.

 

[Shaman464]

Why are Zadina, and Rasmussen guaranteed not to make this team? Larkin made it to the NHL, 1 season after being drafted, and he was drafted lower than both Zadina and Rasmussen. I also remember people complaining or thinking he wouldn't make it that season, either, because we had x,y and z on our roster. If they are overwhelmingly ready they will make it. Sometimes I think Red Wings fans think players don't make it just for the heck of it, in the organizations view. When in reality, we haven't had any top 10 picks since 1990, and top 10s make it to the show quicker than those drafted later, in most cases.

Right now money and roster spots would be the two biggest reasons why right now the Wings have Mantha, Nyquist, Bert, Abdelkader, Helm, AA, Frk, Vanek, and Witkowski penciled in at wing, that literally every wing spot. That would require 3 players to be moved to make 2 spots in the starting line up for wingers.

 

[Dexter Colt]

All that being said, $3 million isn't the end of the world.

Thank you for chiming in.

Going on what you pointed out and his production so far, around 3 mil sounds reasonable. And unless he ever ups his point production, this is what he should stay at.

Having said that, what a bummer. Sounds like another guy with borderline excellent tools, but no toolbox. A guy like this with the capacity to play solid shutdown D would've been fantastic.

 

[Oddbob]

Right now money and roster spots would be the two biggest reasons why right now the Wings have Mantha, Nyquist, Bert, Abdelkader, Helm, AA, Frk, Vanek, and Witkowski penciled in at wing, that literally every wing spot. That would require 3 players to be moved to make 2 spots in the starting line up for wingers.

If one or both of Zad or Ras are ready, Witkowksi and Frk are not guaranteed a spot in my opinion.

 

[Goalie guy]

Why are Zadina, and Rasmussen guaranteed not to make this team? Larkin made it to the NHL, 1 season after being drafted, and he was drafted lower than both Zadina and Rasmussen. I also remember people complaining or thinking he wouldn't make it that season, either, because we had x,y and z on our roster. If they are overwhelmingly ready they will make it. Sometimes I think Red Wings fans think players don't make it just for the heck of it, in the organizations view. When in reality, we haven't had any top 10 picks since 1990, and top 10s make it to the show quicker than those drafted later, in most cases.

Did you not watch the coverage of the camp? We have players in the system that will go before them, they have to prove they are ready to play in the bigs not just because they where taken with a high pick. Could they blow minds in preseason and make the team yes, is that the track record of this team even if showing good in the preseason? No. then lets move on to spots and money, Kenny has not left much of a chance in the spots and does really not have a lot of money to play with. Now lets all hope and pray to god that Z is healthy and able to play, I for one don't want him doing any serious harm to his health for a game, then we run into how do we fill that spot?

 

[Oddbob]

Did you not watch the coverage of the camp? We have players in the system that will go before them, they have to prove they are ready to play in the bigs not just because they where taken with a high pick. Could they blow minds in preseason and make the team yes, is that the track record of this team even if showing good in the preseason? No. then lets move on to spots and money, Kenny has not left much of a chance in the spots and does really not have a lot of money to play with. Now lets all hope and pray to god that Z is healthy and able to play, I for one don't want him doing any serious harm to his health for a game, then we run into how do we fill that spot?

Track record matters not, as this is different than having 2nd round picks who need seasoning. Larkin made it after 1 season, why can't either Ras after 1 season removed from draft or a 6th overall make this team? The Wings don't have a track record in this category since the late 80's/early 90's. We didn't necessarily have space for Larkin, but he forced the issue, so he made it, and I think in Zadina's case, he may as well.

Also, I didn't watch rookie development camp, and that has no basis on this anyhow. At that camp they are learning more about how to be pros than they are about showing where they stand in the organization. Training Camp is where they push for places on the team.

 

[ThankGord]

Highlighted as a potential breakout candidate here:

Six early NHL breakout candidates to watch in 2018-19 (Sportsnet)

Hoping we hold onto him and give him more minutes, one of the most exciting guys on the team. Just needs to work on defense a bit.

 

[waltdetroit]

Thank you for chiming in.

Going on what you pointed out and his production so far, around 3 mil sounds reasonable. And unless he ever ups his point production, this is what he should stay at.

Having said that, what a bummer. Sounds like another guy with borderline excellent tools, but no toolbox. A guy like this with the capacity to play solid shutdown D would've been fantastic.

I hope that AA does more with whatever minutes he gets as he has talent. Just to be the devil's advocate, there are those who think this contract is an overpayment. From the Sporting News. "Worst: Not a lot to choose from here, but Andreas Athanasiou is a three-million a year player? Even understanding inflated bridge deals this seems like a lot for a skilled forward, though one that scored only 18 and 16 goals previous two seasons."
From Sidney Crosby to Carey Price: Best, worst contracts for every NHL team

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Highlighted as a potential breakout candidate here:

Six early NHL breakout candidates to watch in 2018-19 (Sportsnet)

Hoping we hold onto him and give him more minutes, one of the most exciting guys on the team. Just needs to work on defense a bit.

This means nothing to me. AA is one of those guys who will ALWAYS be a breakout candidate. He'll always have the "oh my god, if he just cared or if he just improved his two way play a bit, he'd be a superstar" hype.

At some point guys like that learn it or flame out. I have very little faith that he's going to figure it out now after 3 years, but who knows.

 

[Winger98]

I hope that AA does more with whatever minutes he gets as he has talent. Just to be the devil's advocate, there are those who think this contract is an overpayment. From the Sporting News. "Worst: Not a lot to choose from here, but Andreas Athanasiou is a three-million a year player? Even understanding inflated bridge deals this seems like a lot for a skilled forward, though one that scored only 18 and 16 goals previous two seasons."
From Sidney Crosby to Carey Price: Best, worst contracts for every NHL team

Wait, they had a hard time finding a bad contract on a club that's handed out long term deals to Nielsen and Gator? Instead they pick the 2 year deal at a low cap hit? ...

 

[ThankGord]

This means nothing to me. AA is one of those guys who will ALWAYS be a breakout candidate. He'll always have the "oh my god, if he just cared or if he just improved his two way play a bit, he'd be a superstar" hype.

At some point guys like that learn it or flame out. I have very little faith that he's going to figure it out now after 3 years, but who knows.

I can understand the pessimism, seems like a lot of the offense he generates comes from him cheating up ice a bit. I don't know about superstar, but I'm still holding out hope for top 6. His 3 seasons have been 37 games at 9 min per, 63 at 13 min, and 71 at 15 min (with very little powerplay time) so I think there's still room for him to grow/mature a bit. I'd like Blash to give him a chance to prove himself this season but if he doesn't show improvement I'd be fine with moving on.

 

[waltdetroit]

Wait, they had a hard time finding a bad contract on a club that's handed out long term deals to Nielsen and Gator? Instead they pick the 2 year deal at a low cap hit? ...

Yes I agree, although I think AA was a bit high compared to the Man, it wouldn't be my choice for worst

 

[Fear]

I hope that AA does more with whatever minutes he gets as he has talent. Just to be the devil's advocate, there are those who think this contract is an overpayment. From the Sporting News. "Worst: Not a lot to choose from here, but Andreas Athanasiou is a three-million a year player? Even understanding inflated bridge deals this seems like a lot for a skilled forward, though one that scored only 18 and 16 goals previous two seasons."
From Sidney Crosby to Carey Price: Best, worst contracts for every NHL team

This makes me question the whole article, a lottery team at the cap ceiling doesn't have any bad contracts??