Speculation: Athanasiou Part 2

[Winger98]

Take all of the Athanasiou talk here.

Click to read more...

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I guess basically my opinion is.. I can see the reasoning for pretty much all the moves that the Wings have made, up to holding the line on AA. Not saying that they're the right moves or even good moves, but I can understand the thinking.

They see more in Abby and Helm than we do. And when Helm is 100% healthy, he is a fantastic hockey player who does a lot of the little things to help a team win. However, he's paid too much for too long, especially considering that he's essentially made of glass.

The contract that bugged me the most of them all though was Quincey in 2014, I believe it was. When they threw money at every FA D under the sun because they wanted to move on... and then they not only signed him, but gave him a raise.

 

[Frk It]

I guess basically my opinion is.. I can see the reasoning for pretty much all the moves that the Wings have made, up to holding the line on AA. Not saying that they're the right moves or even good moves, but I can understand the thinking.

They see more in Abby and Helm than we do. And when Helm is 100% healthy, he is a fantastic hockey player who does a lot of the little things to help a team win. However, he's paid too much for too long, especially considering that he's essentially made of glass.

The contract that bugged me the most of them all though was Quincey in 2014, I believe it was. When they threw money at every FA D under the sun because they wanted to move on... and then they not only signed him, but gave him a raise.

My biggest issue with the Helm signing is he was already doing significantly less of all of the things that once made him valuable. He plays more wing than center. He PK's much less. He is less physical (probably to compensate for his injuries). He really brings speed to the table, and not much else at this point. And given we gave him 5 years, once that speed goes, not really going to be pretty.

I like Abdelkader as a player. That extension was just ridiculously pre-mature. Guy literally scores 20 goals one time and we run to him with a 7 year deal? Maybe see if he can sustain it? (which of course seems very doubtful now)

Then there's the politics... Abdelkader is a Michigan kid, Holland is good friends with Helm's wife... I mean hard to say those were strictly "business decisions"...

 

[Shaman464]

Holland has become timid, overly loyal (to the point of nepotism), and has no motivation to change. That being said, the only thing that can make it worse is him blowing the one thing that he isn't completely incompetent at (and if a GM is, they shouldn't GM), signing RFAs.

Letting AA twist in the wind for the first 5-10 games, like the Jets did with Trouba, would go a long way towards showing that Holland has even the smallest amount of backbone. And if AA goes to Russia, I would do what Custance quoted an executive from another NHL team said; Offer him the qualifying amount when he gets back and not a penny more.

PS: I made up 10% of the posts in the last topic, so I have to keep my game up

 

[Ezekial]

Sign a contract, bro.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

My biggest issue with the Helm signing is he was already doing significantly less of all of the things that once made him valuable. He plays more wing than center. He PK's much less. He is less physical (probably to compensate for his injuries). He really brings speed to the table, and not much else at this point. And given we gave him 5 years, once that speed goes, not really going to be pretty.

I like Abdelkader as a player. That extension was just ridiculously pre-mature. Guy literally scores 20 goals one time and we run to him with a 7 year deal? Maybe see if he can sustain it? (which of course seems very doubtful now)

Then there's the politics... Abdelkader is a Michigan kid, Holland is good friends with Helm's wife... I mean hard to say those were strictly "business decisions"...

Even apart from his excessive sense of loyalty, I think Kenny sees some great need to preserve some connection to past championship teams in the locker room. He wants the youngsters to learn from vets who have their name on the cup and know what it takes to get there. Like a lot of Kenny's decisions, the intentions aren't awful but the execution was pretty horrendous. It also ignores the fact that having good vets in the room won't turn water into wine. Again, it is largely an issue of degree with Kenny.

 

[avssuc]

1) You talked about him being difficult in an effort to get elsewhere, that elsewhere is the KHL.
2) It's great if he wants to win. But if he wants to win in the NHL his only real option right now is to be the best he can be and help the Wings get better. You talk as if the Wings are a team that's been at the bottom for decades and has zero potential to ever become better.
3) How often does that happen? Yeah some UFAs have chosen to sign for less money with contenders in an effort to win. It's not applicable to RFAs really. No one's asking AA to take a paycut. He's being offered a deal according to his comparables. Holland would have no reason to increase his offer even if he was playing around with millions in cap space because AA has no leverage and no ammunition to claim he's worth more than guys like Bennet/Brown/etc.

1) No, you cut my quote down to suit your reply. Had you quoted all of it, it becomes obvious that I was talking about the NHL... since trades don't happen between the NHL and KHL. The Wings lose leverage in trying to trade him if it's an open fact that he doesn't want to play for them. The back-room deal may be something along the lines of: "We agree not to say we won't play in Detroit, but you need to move him. If we feel like you're not doing enough, we may bluff the KHL. If it continues, we will openly state his reasons for not wanting to play in Detroit.". I'm not saying it's a likely possibility, I'm just saying that the dumpster-fire is so bad that we shouldn't rule out anything. When you sign a bottom paring defenseman and put yourself over the cap before you secure your RFA, it sends a message.

2) Says you. He obviously has other options, otherwise, he wouldn't be doing this. Again, the Wings don't have any money to sign him, so the Wings are the only ones without any options here (as of now). It's really troubling to me as to how people can't grasp this very simple fact.

3) Even if it only happened once, it gives us an example. Thing is, it's happened more than that, so it's something I can easily cite. That goes right in step with RFA's asking for more than their worth, and it's even easier to speculate that when the Wings roster is filled with terrible contracts, and their development model keeps prospects down for many of the early years. To think that AA and his agent won't use this as leverage is insane, they'd be fools not to.

Maybe you're right, maybe he doesn't want to win. So why would the Wings ability to sign their RFA's next year matter to him? That's your argument, right? That the Wings only grotesquely overpay when it's beyond RFA years? Maybe he's wisely following the rising importance of youth in the game (see players being locked up in RFA years). Again, you and I are both speculating here, but you're not accounting for the new direction of the NHL, which is only a couple steps removed from citing pre-cap practice.

There's only scuttlebutt in terms of the offer the Wings made, and that comes short of the $2.1 he might be justly seeking. All of that still means nothing because the Wings don't have the cap space for any of the 'supposed' offers.

 

[Winger98]

Sign a contract, bro.

Pretty much. While I'd like to see him in Detroit next season, mostly I'm just tired of the circus.

 

[Shaman464]

1) No, you cut my quote down to suit your reply. Had you quoted all of it, it becomes obvious that I was talking about the NHL... since trades don't happen between the NHL and KHL. The Wings lose leverage in trying to trade him if it's an open fact that he doesn't want to play for them. The back-room deal may be something along the lines of: "We agree not to say we won't play in Detroit, but you need to move him. If we feel like you're not doing enough, we may bluff the KHL. If it continues, we will openly state his reasons for not wanting to play in Detroit.". I'm not saying it's a likely possibility, I'm just saying that the dumpster-fire is so bad that we shouldn't rule out anything. When you sign a bottom paring defenseman and put yourself over the cap before you secure your RFA, it sends a message.



2) Says you. He obviously has other options, otherwise, he wouldn't be doing this. Again, the Wings don't have any money to sign him, so the Wings are the only ones without any options here (as of now). It's really troubling to me as to how people can't grasp this very simple fact.

3) Even if it only happened once, it gives us an example. Thing is, it's happened more than that, so it's something I can easily cite. That goes right in step with RFA's asking for more than their worth, and it's even easier to speculate that when the Wings roster is filled with terrible contracts, and their development model keeps prospects down for many of the early years. To think that AA and his agent won't use this as leverage is insane, they'd be fools not to.

Maybe you're right, maybe he doesn't want to win. So why would the Wings ability to sign their RFA's next year matter to him? That's your argument, right? That the Wings only grotesquely overpay when it's beyond RFA years? Maybe he's wisely following the rising importance of youth in the game (see players being locked up in RFA years). Again, you and I are both speculating here, but you're not accounting for the new direction of the NHL, which is only a couple steps removed from citing pre-cap practice.

There's only scuttlebutt in terms of the offer the Wings made, and that comes short of the $2.1 he might be justly seeking. All of that still means nothing because the Wings don't have the cap space for any of the 'supposed' offers.

Custance reported that almost all the NHL execs he's talked to have said they don't believe the threat. He then further goes on to say that this is a common tactic of his agent, and gives multiple examples. AA still has no leverage and the KHL is what's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

paraphrasing:

one exec pointed out that Athanasiou’s agent threatened to place Bennett in Europe if that deal didn’t get done and last year threatened the KHL with Rieder and the Arizona Coyotes. Rieder, was looking for a two-year deal worth $2.75 million per season. He ended up signing a two-year deal worth $2.225 million annually.

The Wings can pretty easily find room for a 2 million dollar contract. The press has belabored this point. So why keep saying it? The math works pretty easily with very few and easy moves.

They can't use it as leverage, its take the contract or don't play hockey in anywhere but the KHL or North Korea. And when you get back you'll still have to play for Detroit. It actually diminishes any leverage he would have because he will be a year older, a year divorced from his last NHL performance, and will kill any good faith that is left on the Wings side.

As for players getting locked up in RFA years, yeah when they are elite/franchise/generational talent. AA is none of those things. Players who have analogous or better stats are getting ~2 million/2-3 years at his age. So, that kills that point. And if he's really pulling all this for 200,000/year (400,000 over 2 years) then let him freeze in Siberia.

 

[Red Stanley]

Sounds like AA needs a new agent.

 

[Pavels Dog]

2) Says you. He obviously has other options, otherwise, he wouldn't be doing this. Again, the Wings don't have any money to sign him, so the Wings are the only ones without any options here (as of now). It's really troubling to me as to how people can't grasp this very simple fact.

Maybe because this "fact" is based on a complete failure to understand the salary cap. It's september. Wings don't need to be cap compliant for weeks. They have AA's rights even if he goes to Russia. They can clear up salary for him in a number of ways and most importantly they can do it AFTER signing him. Their options are many and AA isn't important enough for our upcoming season to make Holland bend over backwards giving him what he wants.

 

[StargateSG1]

Maybe because this "fact" is based on a complete failure to understand the salary cap. It's september. Wings don't need to be cap compliant for weeks. They have AA's rights even if he goes to Russia. They can clear up salary for him in a number of ways and most importantly they can do it AFTER signing him. Their options are many and AA isn't important enough for our upcoming season to make Holland bend over backwards giving him what he wants.

You and Kenny share the same decease.
It's called delusion.
Magically hoping for some serious LTIR injuries in Training camp to desperately clear cap space is NOT a plan.

 

[Shaman464]

You and Kenny share the same decease.
It's called delusion.
Magically hoping for some serious LTIR injuries in Training camp to desperately clear cap space is NOT a plan.

Or they could waive Sproul?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You and Kenny share the same decease.
It's called delusion.
Magically hoping for some serious LTIR injuries in Training camp to desperately clear cap space is NOT a plan.

It isn't a plan, but they can afford him based on other factors.

Money isn't really the issue at the moment.

 

[Shaman464]

It isn't a plan, but they can afford him based on other factors.

Money isn't really the issue at the moment.

It is the issue, cap space isn't though.

 

[StargateSG1]

Or they could waive Sproul?

No, it is still not enough,
and there is still the 23rd roster player missing.
And if someone gets hurt, but not for 10 games or 24 days, there is still no money to call someone up.

There is real math and there is "make belief" math.

 

[Ezekial]

From the Custance article today, me and this executive are in the same line of thinking.

So this is a threat that has been used before by Athanasiou’s camp[in the past], which led one Eastern Conference executive to completely dismiss the idea of him playing in Russia.

“Not a chance,” he said. “If so, what are you waiting for? Go!”

The Ak Bars play tomorrow at 12 PM EST, that is their 8th game, the play again on the 14th. If AA signs tomorrow the absolute earliest he can be there to play a game will be Monday the 18th. So that's game 10 of a 60 game season. If you're gonna go ****ing go.

 

[Shaman464]

No, it is still not enough,
and there is still the 23rd roster player missing.
And if someone gets hurt, but not for 10 games or 24 days, there is still no money to call someone up.

There is real math and there is "make belief" math.

They only need 20 men on their roster. Waiving Sproul or Witkowski would leave them with about 1.8 million in cap space.

 

[StargateSG1]

They only need 20 men on their roster. Waiving Sproul or Witkowski would leave them with about 1.8 million in cap space.

Yeah, that's brilliant!
No healthy scratches and "extra" cap space!
And to think, the other 30 GMs are all morons to not figure this out!

 

[Ezekial]

You'd think building straw men all day would be tiring and fruitless(certainly is beating them down). Must be a boom in the scarecrow market.

No one is inferring anything close to your last line. 99% of posters don't think KH is working magic with some master plan.

 

[RedWingsDad]

I wish AA would just do something already, these forums are so negative around this topic.

 

[Ulysses31]

New AA sighting

 

[PelagicJoe]

New AA sighting

Ha. no wonder Holland hasn't signed him yet.

 

[Mister Ed]

8. [AA is] Very determined, very rigid in his way. If anyone who is threatening to go overseas actually does it, he’s my bet. It’s been reported Detroit is offering just under $4 million (combined) on a two-year deal, but word is the one-year offer is significantly lower. What gives the Red Wings hope is that this has been out there for weeks, but he hasn’t jumped. I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s heard from Team Canada. If he’s in Russia, he’s got a spot in South Korea.

From 31 Thoughts by Friedman

Playing on the Wings or playing in the Olympics?

 

[TCNorthstars]

From 31 Thoughts by Friedman

Playing on the Wings or playing in the Olympics?

But does the Olympics mean as much when you aren't playing the best of the best?