Athanasiou Abuses Duncan Keith

[RedWingzz]

I don't think so.

I think he should have to continuously earn it. I don't care about a fantastic preseason if on November 15-22, he stops fore and backchecking. It needs to be an everyday evaluation. I mean, when you are in school and get your grades, you can't get an A on your midterm and then just completely cruise through the rest of the class doing absolutely nothing and still get the A you want.

I mean, damn it, BABCOCK AND BLASH PRAISED HIM EVERY TIME. They speak glowingly about what he can do when he competes. They say/said all the time how special he is when he's engaged. The coaches don't hate AA. They're not benching him because of some perceived slight. They bench him or ratchet back his minutes because he gets away from doing the things that make him a successful NHL player. If a guy who I know is one of the fastest in the league just gives up on a backcheck, I'd bench his ass for a shift or two as well.

It has nothing to do with Blash misusing him. You could maybe question how Blash is communicating why he's being benched, but the thought process? It's entirely reasonable.

Basically, he's earned the right to be utilized in the top 6 or as the 3C with PP time to start the year. What he does in the first week determines if he retains that right in the 2nd and then in the 3rd and so on. It isn't "he showed when he got a lot of minutes he could do something, so he always should get a lot of minutes". It should be constantly re-evaluated. And it should be for everyone. If Larkin stops driving the play, he should get demoted for a bit and someone should get his minutes. If Abby stops doing Abby things, he should get demoted.

2C...

On no planet is Frans Nielsen better suited for the 2nd line then AA. AA and Vanek are penciled on on the 2nd line to start, and should be given more even strength minutes and certainly more PP minutes then the Nielsen line. It'll be interesting to see who starts with AA and Vanek.

Oh and lol to your Abby comment. Abby can do no wrong in Blash's books and has never been demoted. Blash has a group of players that are never held accountable, usually vets. Nyquist was terrible all year, yet was on line 1 the entire year. The bottom line is that Blashill obviously favours vets, and loves to make the kids "earn" their ice time. I cannot wait for someone else to be in charge. Blash should have been let go a year and a half ago, yet here we are entering a new year with the same old stale coach in charge.

 

[raymond23]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here... its only been a couple preseason games. Athanasiou has shown this potential before only to fade away. God I hope he stays consistent.

He's fun as hell to watch when he's playing like this. I still remember in the series against Tampa, he hit Girardi with the double spin move and I almost died.

 

[raymond23]

1:05

 

[TatarTangle]

2C...

On no planet is Frans Nielsen better suited for the 2nd line then AA. AA and Vanek are penciled on on the 2nd line to start, and should be given more even strength minutes and certainly more PP minutes then the Nielsen line. It'll be interesting to see who starts with AA and Vanek.

Oh and lol to your Abby comment. Abby can do no wrong in Blash's books and has never been demoted. Blash has a group of players that are never held accountable, usually vets. Nyquist was terrible all year, yet was on line 1 the entire year. The bottom line is that Blashill obviously favours vets, and loves to make the kids "earn" their ice time. I cannot wait for someone else to be in charge. Blash should have been let go a year and a half ago, yet here we are entering a new year with the same old stale coach in charge.

On a planet where a coach values a more complete game out of his center, i.e. the centers job, Frans Nielsen is a better center for the second line than AA.

AA would be fun to watch as a 2C but equally not as fun; watching them get scored on more than they score. Best to let him beat up on 3rd liners.

 

[opivy]

Young Yzerman was an offense first guy who didn't play a lot of defense. AA's not at his numbers and hype, but it's not unheard of for players to learn the defensive craft later. For what he's worth he has some skill that is not usual and speed to go with it. I'm more intruiged with who was lined up on the C spot for the other team, to me Keith isn't at fault as much as the other teams C first. It's exactly what we're worried about but inverse.

 

[masta8]

#4. No Zetterberg leaves a gaping hole in ice time to be filled by someone. Some of that is almost necessarily going to trickle down to AA who has always complained about ice time. Well now he's gonna get it. If IT was really a big thing holding him back, he should have a much better season now that Z is gone.

The thing I want to see most from him is tenacity/strength on the puck. He doesn't seem to be a great battler.

and so far he has talked the talk, all though it is preseason. Will find out next week if it can correlate to regular season and based on the 4 reasons giving (your right Z gone helps) will find out.

 

[Shaman464]

Young Yzerman was an offense first guy who didn't play a lot of defense. AA's not at his numbers and hype, but it's not unheard of for players to learn the defensive craft later. For what he's worth he has some skill that is not usual and speed to go with it. I'm more intruiged with who was lined up on the C spot for the other team, to me Keith isn't at fault as much as the other teams C first. It's exactly what we're worried about but inverse.

AA has 76 points in 172 games at 23-24. Yzerman at 23 put up a 150 point season. In 80 games he came within 2 points of doubling the number of points AA had in over twice as many games. When AA can score more points in a single season than anyone not named ML or WG then you’ll have an argument. But putting up less than 0.5 ppg and not doing anything else for the team than score sometimes isn’t going to work.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

AA has 76 points in 172 games at 23-24. Yzerman at 23 put up a 150 point season. In 80 games he came within 2 points of doubling the number of points AA had in over twice as many games. When AA can score more points in a single season than anyone not named ML or WG then you’ll have an argument. But putting up less than 0.5 ppg and not doing anything else for the team than score sometimes isn’t going to work.

Comparing AA to Yzerman is ridiculous.

... So is expecting players in 2018 to put up points at the level of players in the 80s.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

2C...

On no planet is Frans Nielsen better suited for the 2nd line then AA. AA and Vanek are penciled on on the 2nd line to start, and should be given more even strength minutes and certainly more PP minutes then the Nielsen line. It'll be interesting to see who starts with AA and Vanek.

Oh and lol to your Abby comment. Abby can do no wrong in Blash's books and has never been demoted. Blash has a group of players that are never held accountable, usually vets. Nyquist was terrible all year, yet was on line 1 the entire year. The bottom line is that Blashill obviously favours vets, and loves to make the kids "earn" their ice time. I cannot wait for someone else to be in charge. Blash should have been let go a year and a half ago, yet here we are entering a new year with the same old stale coach in charge.

It’s not worth having a discussion with you or anyone who just reduces it to “oh blashill just loves veterans and hates young players”

No. Blashill loves guys who he can count on to give a full effort. He loves guys that he can count on to perform their roles in offense AND in defense.

Larkin is just as young as AA but he gets minutes galore. I wonder what the difference is there. Hell, Mantha consistently gets too 6 minutes. Is he all of a sudden a veteran that Blashill is wrongly”favoring”?

Have a good day. Hope your Blashill hatred tides you over

 

[Frk It]

I would say after this preseason, he has earned the right to get consistent top 6 minutes, and consistent PP time. And I don't mean the usual Blash treatment of getting top 6 minutes for 2 games, and then sitting entire 3rd periods due to "lack of compete level". He has shown this preseason what he can do with minutes.

For once, Blashill has only had positives to say about AA. After every game, Blash has been praising his play. I just hope he doesn't give him 4 games with solid ice time, and then demote him during the year.

It’s an encouraging start, I’ve liked his overall game a lot so far.

But he’s also playing against teams that have AHL guys playing and some prospects mixed in. If this carries over I’m all for giving him ample opportunity, but I wouldn’t do it solely off of pre-season play.

 

[RedWingzz]

AA has 76 points in 172 games at 23-24. Yzerman at 23 put up a 150 point season. In 80 games he came within 2 points of doubling the number of points AA had in over twice as many games. When AA can score more points in a single season than anyone not named ML or WG then you’ll have an argument. But putting up less than 0.5 ppg and not doing anything else for the team than score sometimes isn’t going to work.

We're comparing AA to our best offensive player of all time? This escalated quickly....

 

[RedWingzz]

It’s not worth having a discussion with you or anyone who just reduces it to “oh blashill just loves veterans and hates young players”

No. Blashill loves guys who he can count on to give a full effort. He loves guys that he can count on to perform their roles in offense AND in defense.

Larkin is just as young as AA but he gets minutes galore. I wonder what the difference is there. Hell, Mantha consistently gets too 6 minutes. Is he all of a sudden a veteran that Blashill is wrongly”favoring”?

Have a good day. Hope your Blashill hatred tides you over

Yeah, you're right, I should be happy that Blashill is still leading the team after the long impressive list of accolades he has accumulated over the last 3 years. The NHL is a business where most teams are not content with mediocracy. For some reason, our organization is just happy to "keep on truckin' along".

You can't honestly tell me you are happy with the majority of the decisions he has made since he's been here. If you are, then I guess we will have to politely agree to disagree.

Also LOL at "it's not worth having a discussion with you", but then replying to my comment. If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't reply. Have a wonderful afternoon!

 

[masta8]

On a planet where a coach values a more complete game out of his center, i.e. the centers job, Frans Nielsen is a better center for the second line than AA.

AA would be fun to watch as a 2C but equally not as fun; watching them get scored on more than they score. Best to let him beat up on 3rd liners.

The fact you are saying Nielsen is a better 2C then AA because of his better defensive game makes no sense to me. 2c are suppose to score and AA has a lot better offensive skill then Nielsen. 3rd line is better suited for Nielsen because of his defensive and face off ability and not having to be counted on to score.

 

[Ezekial]

The fact you are saying Nielsen is a better 2C then AA because of his better defensive game makes no sense to me. 2c are suppose to score and AA has a lot better offensive skill then Nielsen. 3rd line is better suited for Nielsen because of his defensive and face off ability and not having to be counted on to score.

To be fair, last season Nielsen averaged 15:50 a night mostly with Glendening, Abby, and Helm, and he put up 33 in 79

AA played 15:19 a night, put up 33 in 71. Albeit without a preseason.

Maybe Frans scores more points in an offensive role without schlubs flanking him. IIRC Hank had the most assists on his goals.

 

[Shaman464]

The fact you are saying Nielsen is a better 2C then AA because of his better defensive game makes no sense to me. 2c are suppose to score and AA has a lot better offensive skill then Nielsen. 3rd line is better suited for Nielsen because of his defensive and face off ability and not having to be counted on to score.

For a guy who has played maybe ten NHL games as a center you seem to be pretty convinced he's better than a guy who has a career of 0.5 ppg and playing near Selke level defense.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The fact you are saying Nielsen is a better 2C then AA because of his better defensive game makes no sense to me. 2c are suppose to score and AA has a lot better offensive skill then Nielsen. 3rd line is better suited for Nielsen because of his defensive and face off ability and not having to be counted on to score.

?

AA and Nielsen had nigh identical offensive contributions last year. Nielsen also actually played defense. I am confused as to this.

And while AA undoubtedly has more upper end offensive skill... I mean, it didn't lead to a whole hell of a lot more points. At some point, he has to cash in on all that skill that he has, or he might as well not have it.

Like if I could run a 10.2 100 meter dash, but when the preliminary heat comes I run a 11.5 and a guy who is only capable of an 11.4 runs that 11.4 and beats me... it doesn't matter that I'm capable of way more. That is why AA doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. He has WAY more skill than basically anyone on the roster... and yet his results aren't anything special compared to everyone else.

But also, hockey players are supposed to be good hockey players. In the current NHL, you want all of your lines to be able to play defense or to score against reasonable competition. This isn't the dead puck era when you could have a literal shutdown line and all the stoppages would let you run them out there and just choke the life out of the other teams' top line. It remains to be seen long term if AA is even good at all as a C. When the lights are on and all teams give a ****, can he win faceoffs? Can he handle being the pivot? Nielsen is a better 2C than AA because he's a C with a track record who scores at roughly the same clip.

 

[masta8]

?

AA and Nielsen had nigh identical offensive contributions last year. Nielsen also actually played defense. I am confused as to this.

And while AA undoubtedly has more upper end offensive skill... I mean, it didn't lead to a whole hell of a lot more points. At some point, he has to cash in on all that skill that he has, or he might as well not have it.

Your going off of last year AA and this year AA. Last season I agreed that he underperformed but that way AA is playing and Nielsen not getting any younger why on earth would you put a defensive forward on the second line when you have the speed and skill as well of the chemistry with a top 6 forward (Vanek). You can talk about last season all you want as your argument but based on this preseason I like what I see and you can't tell me this is the same AA you saw last year?

 

[masta8]

For a guy who has played maybe ten NHL games as a center you seem to be pretty convinced he's better than a guy who has a career of 0.5 ppg and playing near Selke level defense.

I'm just basing my reasonings on what I have seen thus far in 2018. He had a strong training camp and preseason and Nielsen I think has been rather quiet, all though small sample size. The fact the debate who should be 2 line C to me is laughable at the moment.

 

[Ezekial]

I'm just basing my reasonings on what I have seen thus far in 2018. He had a strong training camp and preseason and Nielsen I think has been rather quiet, all though small sample size. The fact the debate who should be 2 line C to me is laughable at the moment.

Nielsen has 1 preseason appearance. Chicago 9/20

 

[masta8]

Nielsen has 1 preseason appearance. Chicago 9/20

Red and White Game included. But yes small sample size as I said.

 

[Shaman464]

I'm just basing my reasonings on what I have seen thus far in 2018. He had a strong training camp and preseason and Nielsen I think has been rather quiet, all though small sample size. The fact the debate who should be 2 line C to me is laughable at the moment.

Yeah, it should be the guy with more than one good preseason's worth of track record at centering a middle 6 line, not a guy who has, to this point a poor track record.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Your going off of last year AA and this year AA. Last season I agreed that he underperformed but that way AA is playing and Nielsen not getting any younger why on earth would you put a defensive forward on the second line when you have the speed and skill as well of the chemistry with a top 6 forward (Vanek). You can talk about last season all you want as your argument but based on this preseason I like what I see and you can't tell me this is the same AA you saw last year?

If you have three years track record of being really underwhelming at your job and then one month of great performance against less strenuous circumstances... would your boss assume that you’d turned the corner or would they wait and see?

So I can’t tell you that this is the same AA or not. Let the games play out where they play against other teams who ice their pro roster and they’re not trying to avoid injury. Last I heard, the 2008 Lions went 4-0 in the preseason. They must have done awesome that year.

You take preseason play with a grain of salt. Basically it’s more damning if you look bad than it is amazing that you look good.

Why don’t people understand that AA has proven over three years that he is inconsistent in his effort and in game performance and he needs more than a couple times to shake that rep.

Can he win faceoffs consistently at a good enough rate to be a top 6 C? I have no idea. Will he continue playing like a really good pivot when the season drags on into months 2 and 3? Through his career so far, I wouldn't bet on it. I could be wrong, definitely, but it’s on him to prove everyone wrong. He’s been too inconsistent for too long for anyone to just assume that he’ll do this or he’ll do that.

 

[masta8]

If you have three years track record of being really underwhelming at your job and then one month of great performance against less strenuous circumstances... would your boss assume that you’d turned the corner or would they wait and see?

So I can’t tell you that this is the same AA or not. Let the games play out where they play against other teams who ice their pro roster and they’re not trying to avoid injury. Last I heard, the 2008 Lions went 4-0 in the preseason. They must have done awesome that year.

You take preseason play with a grain of salt. Basically it’s more damning if you look bad than it is amazing that you look good.

Why don’t people understand that AA has proven over three years that he is inconsistent in his effort and in game performance and he needs more than a couple times to shake that rep.

Can he win faceoffs consistently at a good enough rate to be a top 6 C? I have no idea. Will he continue playing like a really good pivot when the season drags on into months 2 and 3? Through his career so far, I wouldn't bet on it. I could be wrong, definitely, but it’s on him to prove everyone wrong. He’s been too inconsistent for too long for anyone to just assume that he’ll do this or he’ll do that.

First,
Other then last season, he has actually had two good seasons. Two years ago he had 18 goals playing like 11 minutes a game or something stupid low and then his rookie season he was very strong and had some big goals and plays including that win to clinch a playoff spot against Philly. So minus the year he showed up 6 weeks after camp and exhibition and season games and you have a good start to a career that has potential to be even better. I don't understand if that was part of your argument to say three years but as a fan who has watched 90% of the games each year I would say he had 2 very strong seasons so you lost me there.
Second,
I don't understand your comparison to the NFL when the starting players play like maybe a half a game in the four preseason games, if you look at the roster last night for Chicago I'm pretty sure Kane, Toews, Saad and that former Conn Smythe and Norris winner Keith whose thread is because AA owned him last night are there top players. What bugs me about your response is you saying "more damning if you look bad than it is amazing that you look good" is the fact that if AA had a tough preseason people like yourself would be all over him like most of you were last year. The fact he has had such a strong preseason and camp and even Blashill who AA has been in his doghouse quite often, also agrees AA is looking amazing makes me believe he will never satisfy some fans like yourself.

Lastly, I agree AA underachieved last year but there is no way you can be a Red Wings fan and not hope that his play continues, and that this guy this year even remotely looks like the one from last year. I know it's preseason but I am very impressed what I see and hope he continues into the season and I believe this is his break out season.

 

[Goalie guy]

?

AA and Nielsen had nigh identical offensive contributions last year. Nielsen also actually played defense. I am confused as to this.

And while AA undoubtedly has more upper end offensive skill... I mean, it didn't lead to a whole hell of a lot more points. At some point, he has to cash in on all that skill that he has, or he might as well not have it.

Like if I could run a 10.2 100 meter dash, but when the preliminary heat comes I run a 11.5 and a guy who is only capable of an 11.4 runs that 11.4 and beats me... it doesn't matter that I'm capable of way more. That is why AA doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. He has WAY more skill than basically anyone on the roster... and yet his results aren't anything special compared to everyone else.

But also, hockey players are supposed to be good hockey players. In the current NHL, you want all of your lines to be able to play defense or to score against reasonable competition. This isn't the dead puck era when you could have a literal shutdown line and all the stoppages would let you run them out there and just choke the life out of the other teams' top line. It remains to be seen long term if AA is even good at all as a C. When the lights are on and all teams give a ****, can he win faceoffs? Can he handle being the pivot? Nielsen is a better 2C than AA because he's a C with a track record who scores at roughly the same clip.

So what you are saying is even if a kid scores the same, shows he can back check the same tie goes to the vet? Even if numbers are the same?

 

[Ingvar]

Does it really matter if AA is called a “2C” or a “3C”? He will play with Vanek anyway, his line will get more offensive deployment while Nielsen’s line will be used to shutdown top lines. Less than a minute of ice time difference hardly matters and can be adjusted during the season if AA breaks out.