ATD2021 Jim Robson Divisional Semi-Final: Chicago Shamrocks vs. Arizona Coyotes

[BenchBrawl]

Chicago Shamrocks

Coach: Pat Burns

Paul Kariya - Frank Boucher - Jarome Iginla (A)
Jamie Benn - Henri Richard (A) - Cecil Dillon
Zach Parise - Duke Keats* - Corey Perry
Brenden Morrow - Edgar Laprade* - Eric Nesterenko

*H. Richard will take several shifts on both the 3rd and 4th lines (see chart below)

Frantisek Pospisil (C) - Doug Harvey
Kevin Lowe - Bill Quackenbush
Mike Ramsey - Joe Simpson

Charlie Gardiner
Evgeni Nabokov

Spares: Taylor Hall (LW), Bill Thoms (C - limited time at W), Brent Seabrook (D)

PP1
Kariya - Boucher - Iginla
Harvey - Simpson

PP2
Benn - Keats - Perry
Pospisil - Quackenbush

PK1
Laprade - Nesterenko
Ramsey - Harvey

PK2
Boucher - Dillon
Lowe - Quackenbush

Extra PK F: H. Richard
Extra PK D: Pospisil
​

vs.

Coach: Anatoli Tarasov

Busher Jackson --- Cyclone Taylor --- Daniel Alfredsson
Gordon Roberts --- Newsy Lalonde (A) --- Mickey MacKay
Dean Prentice --- Tommy Smith --- Eddie Oatman
Jack Walker --- Pit Lepine --- Bruce MacGregor

Ebbie Goodfellow (A) --- Dit Clapper (C)
Ken Reardon --- Jack Crawford
Frank Patrick --- Lennart Svedberg

Patrick Roy
Hugh Lehman

Spares: David Backes (C/RW), Glen Harmon (D), Patrick Sharp (F)

PP1: Jackson - Lalonde - Smith - Taylor - Goodfellow
PP2: Clapper - MacKay - Roberts - Patrick - Alfredsson

PK1: Lepine - Walker - Reardon - Clapper
PK2: MacKay - Prentice - Goodfellow - Crawford
​

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here's to a good series RB.

I'll get my minutes chart and some other notables posted first...

 

[ResilientBeast]

Here's to a good series RB.

I'll get my minutes chart and some other notables posted first...

I might be making some roster swaps, but I need to think about it for a little bit so no worries

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago Estimated Minutes Chart (Regular Season - As Usual the Top Players Will Get More TOI in the Playoffs)
Notes
- When trailing in the 3rd Keats will get more shifts on the 3rd line and H. Richard will take more of Laprade's shifts on the 4th line
- When leading in the 3rd Laprade will get some of Keats' shifts on the 3rd line
- Zach Parise will take most of Brenden Morrow's shifts on the 4th line when H. Richard is centering
- LW Flexibility: if the 1st line finds themselves in a situation where Burns would like more defensive ability in the ice, Parise can be sent out for that shift and Kariya can get his minutes back playing on the 3rd or 4th line on one of the shifts when H. Richard is centering.
- Harvey will get some shifts with Simpson, before or after which Quackenbush will play with Pospisil
- Harvey and Quackenbush will see some shifts together at end of periods and critical situations

Forwards
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
P. Kariya	14	4		18
F. Boucher	14	4	3	21
J. Iginla	14	4		18
J. Benn	13	3		16
H. Richard	20			20
C. Dillon	14		3	17
Z. Parise	13			13
D. Keats	8	3		11
C. Perry	11	3		14
B. Morrow	6			6
E. Laprade	4		4	8
E. Nesterenko	7		4	11
TOTAL	138	21	14	173
Defense
Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
D. Harvey	19	5	4	28
F. Pospisil	19	2		21
B. Quackenbush	18	2	3	23
K. Lowe	12		3	15
J. Simpson	13	5		18
M. Ramsey	11		4	15
TOTAL	92	14	14	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago Players - Years wearing the "C"
Pospisil: 6 years (national team)
H. Richard: 4 years
Iginla: 9 years
------------------
Benn: 8 years
Kariya: 7 years
Morrow: 7 years
Ramsey: 3 years
Harvey: 1 year
Gardiner: 1 year
Keats: 1 year (possibly more in Edmonton)
Lowe: 1 year
Parise: 1 year


EDIT: With all the leadership on this squad, there will be no problems buying into Pat Burns' coaching.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago Staying Out of The Box - Lady Byng Finishes (Top 20)
Boucher: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4
Kariya: 1, 1, 5, 6, 6, 6, 10, 12, 15
Quackenbush: 1, 3, 4, 4, 4
Laprade: 1, 3, 4, 4, 5
Dillon: 3, 3, 5
H. Richard: 4, 5
Parise: 3, 9, 14
Iginla: 7, 9, 13, 17, 18, 18
Pospisil: [Joe Pelletier: "Pospisil was blessed with good size and great strength. He was a feared physical player in international hockey, though he always played cleanly. He relied primarily on hockey smarts and positional defense."]
Thoms: 3

 

[ResilientBeast]

So I think I'm going to move Tommy Smith down to 3C and move Gordon Roberts up to 2LW

Busher Jackson --- Cyclone Taylor --- Daniel Alfredsson
Gordon Roberts --- Newsy Lalonde (A) --- Mickey MacKay
Dean Prentice --- Tommy Smith --- Eddie Oatman
Jack Walker --- Pit Lepine --- Bruce MacGregor

Ebbie Goodfellow (A) --- Dit Clapper (C)
Ken Reardon --- Jack Crawford
Frank Patrick --- Lennart Svedberg

Patrick Roy
Hugh Lehman

Give my top top 6 a little more defensive chops and give my bottom six more scoring punch. Let Lepine and Walker play beautiful stick checking shut down hockey together

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

New Pat Burns Bio
(not linked in the OP, mod: please edit)

EDIT: This new bio is linked in my Roster Thread post

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Evaluating Chicago's Forward Lines - Not Like Most Teams

Henri Richard was a two-way Even Strength specialist in real life, who got little time on special teams, which is why Chicago's estimated TOI chart shows Richard's entire 20 min of ice time being spent at ES.

(Note: Richard's 7yr ES vs.x score is slightly higher than guys like Bryan Trottier, Andy Bathgate, Teemu Selanne, and Evgeni Malkin, and slightly below guys like Joe Sakic and Marcel Dionne)

In order to play Richard so much at ES, time will need to be taken away from some of Chicago's Bottom 6 Centers. Please see the estimated minutes chart for a detailed breakdown.

This means that when evaluating Chicago's 3rd/4th lines you cannot simply look at how they are listed in the Roster and compare to the opponent's lines, because Henri Richard will be getting significant minutes on those lines, which will give Chicago a large advantage compared to other teams bottom sixes.

Between Frank Boucher and Henri Richard, Chicago will have a legit #1 Center on the ice for about 75% of the total ES time in the entire game.


What is the downside?
There has to be a downside to the above advantage, and that is reflected on Chicago's Powerplay. Particularly the 2nd unit is weaker than most teams, as almost every team in the draft uses their 2nd line C on one of the PP units.


How can Chicago make up for this downside?
The plan to make up for the above disadvantage on the PP is to simply have more PP opportunities than their opponents in order to make up for the likely lower success rate Chicago will have per PP.

The main way Chicago will achieve this is taking less penalties than their opponents:
- The Chicago Roster is full of clean players who don't take a lot of penalties (some of this can be seen in the above post with Lady Byng finishes)
- Chicago's coach, Bill Burns, is very well know for demanding discipline from his players, and with a lot of leadership on the team (see above post on Captain experience) the team will surely buy in.

It should also be noted that while Chicago has several clean players, they still have plenty of grit and toughness, which will make it difficult for their opponents to abstain from taking penalties. Iginla, Benn, Perry, Keats, Morrow, Nesterenko are all physical and then there's also guys like Richard, Dillon, Laprade, Parise who are not overly physical, but play a tenacious/dogged style. All of these guys are also very much Pat Burns types of players.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Ok so just wading into this, you've really built a tremendously sound roster @Hawkey Town 18

Looking at the centers, I think Taylor > Boucher & Lalonde > Richard in an absolute sense. Offensively my guys are both stronger weapons, but are certainly way behind on defensive play.

VsX for simplicity (Taylor assigned 100ish)

Taylor (~100) + Jackson (89.5) + Alfredsson (82.3.) = 271.8
Boucher (95.1) + Kariya (84.9) + Iginla (86.7) = 266.7

So barely an advantage for the Coyotes for top line offense. My line is physical play and puck winning by committee while you have one of the best two way centers and modern powerforwards on the roster.

Our second units can't be compared using our standard means really. Richard a fantastic ES offensive producer vs Lalonde. I don't think there's much opposition to me saying Lalonde is a stronger offensive and physical player. But Richard is certainly stronger defensively the margin isn't clear but it is significant. MacKay is probably fairly close to Richard defensively in my opinion

Roberts vs Benn is a wonky comparison, but I don't think there's much separating them. You've added some stuff in your bio about "two-way play" I've never seen it with Benn. Benn is likely more physical, but I think Roberts was the better defensive player.

Overall offensively I think my second unit has a larger edge offensively than my first unit on the back of Lalonde. Defensively it feels pretty close to a wash maybe slight edge Chicago. The clear worst defensive players on the lines are Lalonde and Benn.

I will address your third line traditionally while keeping in my mind you have Richard taking some minutes from Keats. Keats love him a lot, but his offense as I've come to find ever since I drafted him in 2016 is not great at this level. Compared to Tommy Smith I would lean towards my guy just on the strength of those NHA seasons where he led the league in scoring. Defensively definite advantage Keats as Smith was somewhere between bad to terrible.

Our wingers are an interesting comparison. Prentice and Parise are separated by 3 points with VsX and if I'm honest maybe I didn't watch enough Devils I never really "got" the hype behind Parise. He seems like a higher skilled grinder to me he brings good complementary skills but I'm not sure if any of them are close to elite at this level.

For weird trophy wins in the 2010s you go 2 for 2 with Perry and Benn. I like Perry at this on a 3rd line scoring built for scoring. He's a probably a better scorer than Oatman, but Oatman definitely brings a more complete all around game.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The biggest elephant in the room comparing teams is the difference in our defense (In brackets is the position on their respective teams)

Harvey( 1D)
Clapper (1D)/Quackenbush(2D)
Goodfellow(2D)
Pospisil (3D)
Reardon(3D)
Crawford (4D)
Lowe (4D)

The fact you have two defenseman as good or better than my 1D is a huge disadvantage for the Coyotes. The gaps between our 3 & 4Ds are probably fairly balanced. I'd have our bottom pairing D all on roughly the same tier, so no gains can be made for the Coyotes here. If the Coyotes will pull off the upset we will need to find a way to overcome this disadvantage.

Patrick Roy vs Charlie Gardiner

If you had any other goalie in a similar tier I'd be a little more confident on the attack, but I'm very high on Gardiner especially in a playoff dominated format he's truly fantastic value. I don't think it's controversial to say Roy imparts an advantage, but I'm not sure the margin of this advantage. Gardiner played in 2 finals winning 1 before his death. Those Chicago teams were pretty bad and largely made it to the finals on the strength of Gardiner allowing a stingy 1.32-1.33 GPG in the playoffs.

 

[Dreakmur]

At even strength, Henri Richard might be a better scorer than Newsy Lalonde. It’s close at the very least.

 

[ResilientBeast]

At even strength, Henri Richard might be a better scorer than Newsy Lalonde. It’s close at the very least.

But as the 2C on a dynasty was he facing the opponents top checkers and D pairings consistently?

I agree his numbers are excellent at ES but is truly that great of a point producer?

I perhaps undersold him in my post, but I don't think Richard is a better scorer than Lalonde. It can be closer than I initially estimated then

 

[Dreakmur]

But as the 2C on a dynasty was he facing the opponents top checkers and D pairings consistently?

I agree his numbers are excellent at ES but is truly that great of a point producer?

I perhaps undersold him in my post, but I don't think Richard is a better scorer than Lalonde. It can be closer than I initially estimated then

I’ll re-run my math when I get home, but I remember having the Richard brothers almost equal in terms of ES production.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

At even strength, Henri Richard might be a better scorer than Newsy Lalonde. It’s close at the very least.

But as the 2C on a dynasty was he facing the opponents top checkers and D pairings consistently?

I agree his numbers are excellent at ES but is truly that great of a point producer?

I perhaps undersold him in my post, but I don't think Richard is a better scorer than Lalonde. It can be closer than I initially estimated then

This was going to be part of my reply to your post, but since it's already started, I'll address this point now.

As I said before, in 7yr ES Vs.X, H. Richard is just behind Sakic and Dionne. We don't have ES numbers for Lalonde, but I agree with Dreakmur that at the very least it's close. Then there's the massive advantage Richard has in defensive ability. Lalonde has some edge in physical play for sure, but it's not like Richard is soft or anything. Overall H. Richard is the better player at ES because of his elite defense.

Of course Lalonde's overall offense is clearly better than Richard's for what he contributes on the PP, but we're evaluating the lines at ES right now. Special teams units will be evaluated later.

Will give some more comments on RB's post on forward lines either later today or tomorrow depending on how work goes.

 

[Dreakmur]

But as the 2C on a dynasty was he facing the opponents top checkers and D pairings consistently?

I agree his numbers are excellent at ES but is truly that great of a point producer?

I perhaps undersold him in my post, but I don't think Richard is a better scorer than Lalonde. It can be closer than I initially estimated then

73(1956)
67(1957)
122(1958)
70(1959)
104(1960)
91(1961)
78(1962)
105(1963)
92(1964)
85(1965)
91(1966)
85(1967)
38(1968)
62(1969)
73(1970)
56(1971)
53(1972)
55(1973)
71(1974)

That would give him a 7 season vs. X of 98.6.

 

[ResilientBeast]

This was going to be part of my reply to your post, but since it's already started, I'll address this point now.

As I said before, in 7yr ES Vs.X, H. Richard is just behind Sakic and Dionne. We don't have ES numbers for Lalonde, but I agree with Dreakmur that at the very least it's close. Then there's the massive advantage Richard has in defensive ability. Lalonde has some edge in physical play for sure, but it's not like Richard is soft or anything. Overall H. Richard is the better player at ES because of his elite defense.

Of course Lalonde's overall offense is clearly better than Richard's for what he contributes on the PP, but we're evaluating the lines at ES right now. Special teams units will be evaluated later.

Will give some more comments on RB's post on forward lines either later today or tomorrow depending on how work goes.

Not saying Richard is soft, but Lalonde is legendarily tough and physical they're completely different players in that respect.

 

[Dreakmur]

Not saying Richard is soft, but Lalonde is legendarily tough and physical they're completely different players in that respect.

I would describe Richard as chippy. I would describe Lalonde as intimidating.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Not saying Richard is soft, but Lalonde is legendarily tough and physical they're completely different players in that respect.

I would describe Richard as chippy. I would describe Lalonde as intimidating.

Agree with these. My point was that whatever edge Lalonde has in that department isn't close to making up for what Richard gets out of his elite defensive play.

For that matter, physicality is already largely factored in to both a player's offensive and defensive resumes.

EDIT: Although I think you can give a physically intimidating player a boost if they're facing a soft opponent.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Thank you for getting the comparison started, but I have some issues with some of your comments, which are as follows:

Our second units can't be compared using our standard means really. Richard a fantastic ES offensive producer vs Lalonde. I don't think there's much opposition to me saying Lalonde is a stronger offensive and physical player. But Richard is certainly stronger defensively the margin isn't clear but it is significant. MacKay is probably fairly close to Richard defensively in my opinion.

Defensively, MacKay is closer to Dillon (who you haven't even mentioned) than he is to H. Richard. To be clear, I have MacKay ahead of Dillon defensively. H. Richard is an elite defensive forward, likely right below the uber-elite (your Clarkes, Bergerons, Gaineys, Nighbors, Carbonneaus). Further, playing the wing, MacKay's defense has to be discounted somewhat, as you simply can have a larger impact playing center, which he did a lot during his career. We hear about Frank Nighbor modeling his game after MacKay, surely that is coming from MacKay's time at Center.

Roberts vs Benn is a wonky comparison, but I don't think there's much separating them. You've added some stuff in your bio about "two-way play" I've never seen it with Benn. Benn is likely more physical, but I think Roberts was the better defensive player.

With all due respect, I don't think it matters that you've never seen Benn's defense. There are multiple quotes in the bio I made referencing his defense/two-way play/work away from the puck (note away from the puck is not always defense related), and these are not single game accounts. I don't see any reason why Benn wouldn't be considered an equal to Roberts here.
Benn is being asked to be the 3rd best defensive player and major physical presence (with two other players who are chippy) on a strong two-way line, and I think he fits the role perfectly.

Overall offensively I think my second unit has a larger edge offensively than my first unit on the back of Lalonde. Defensively it feels pretty close to a wash maybe slight edge Chicago. The clear worst defensive players on the lines are Lalonde and Benn.

I do not at all agree with this. As discussed, in previous posts, at ES Richard and Lalonde are near equals offensively. Benn is a much better offensive player than Roberts. The comparison of Dillon and MacKay offensively is difficult.
Defensively, Chicago is MUCH MUCH better.
This second line is the biggest strength in the Chicago lineup (along with Doug Harvey as the #1 Dman). A legit first line center (which you have as well), and two strong wingers, who wouldn't be out of place on a first line. A two-way line, that will be deadly on the forecheck and is a real scoring threat.

I will address your third line traditionally while keeping in my mind you have Richard taking some minutes from Keats. Keats love him a lot, but his offense as I've come to find ever since I drafted him in 2016 is not great at this level. Compared to Tommy Smith I would lean towards my guy just on the strength of those NHA seasons where he led the league in scoring. Defensively definite advantage Keats as Smith was somewhere between bad to terrible.

Our wingers are an interesting comparison. Prentice and Parise are separated by 3 points with VsX and if I'm honest maybe I didn't watch enough Devils I never really "got" the hype behind Parise. He seems like a higher skilled grinder to me he brings good complementary skills but I'm not sure if any of them are close to elite at this level.

For weird trophy wins in the 2010s you go 2 for 2 with Perry and Benn. I like Perry at this on a 3rd line scoring built for scoring. He's a probably a better scorer than Oatman, but Oatman definitely brings a more complete all around game.

Parise and Prentice have similar ES vs.X with Parise very slightly ahead (although Parise is likely underrate some by this metric due to games missed to injury, that said Prentice is more durable and physical). I have them in the same tier defensively, but would probably put Prentice slightly ahead. Overall I think these two are a wash.

Continuing on defense, I wanna say Oatmen and Keats are around the same tier as small pluses, with Perry below that but at least getting something out of his chippiness/ratness. Smith is probably one of the worst defensive players in the entire draft.

The big difference in 3rd lines is at Center, Duke Keats is pretty clearly a better overall player than Tommy Smith, and Smith is not playing a role he's suited for as an all-offense player Centering a 3rd line, and I don't think his wingers are good enough defensively to make up for it. I would have to take a closer look before agreeing with you on this, but even if we say Smith is better offensively than Keats in a vacuum, surely Keats will score more with Smith defending him than Smith will with Keats defending, and Smith will get eaten alive if he finds himself out there against Richard (which he definitely will at times) or Boucher (I'm sure Arizona's coaching will try to avoid this at all costs).

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Evaluating Chicago's Defense – Also Not Like Most Teams

Chicago’s defensemen are not being used in the traditional manner we usually see in the ATD.

For one, while there are set pairings that will be used most of the time (the ones listed in Chicago’s Roster post), many of the Chicago players will be shifted around to play with others. The main reason for this is because Chicago’s top 3 Dmen are quite strong for their roles:

1. Doug Harvey – IMO the #2 all time only behind Orr
2. Bill Quackenbush – a “Lidstrom light” that is a high end #2 in a draft this size
3. Frantisek Pospisil – an above average to high end defensive minded #3

Harvey and Pospisil will play together most of the time, and Bill Quackenbush is being used primarily on the 2nd pairing. Having a #2 on the second pairing is not all that unusual in the ATD, and something we see often, but what we don’t often see is Chicago’s usage of its #4/5/6 dmen…

Kevin Lowe is listed on the second pairing next to Quackenbush, but Joe Simpson is actually Chicago’s #4, and Lowe is only playing 12 minutes at ES, only 1 minute more than Mike Ramsey (and both at 15 min total when including PK time).

Similar to Chicago’s 3rd/4th lines, you cannot simply look at Chicago’s 2nd/3rd pairings and evaluate them as they are listed, because of actual usage. Utilizing Harvey’s ability to play both sides and big minutes gives great flexibility to the lineup, and we may see any of the following combinations in addition to those listed in the OP:

Harvey - Quackenbush
Harvey - Simpson
Pospisil - Quackenbush
Ramsey - Quackenbush
Lowe/Ramsey - Harvey
(Harvey can literally play with anyone in the lineup if needed).

 

[ResilientBeast]

Thank you for getting the comparison started, but I have some issues with some of your comments, which are as follows:
With Defensively, MacKay is closer to Dillon (who you haven't even mentioned) than he is to H. Richard. To be clear, I have MacKay ahead of Dillon defensively. H. Richard is an elite defensive forward, likely right below the uber-elite (your Clarkes, Bergerons, Gaineys, Nighbors, Carbonneaus). Further, playing the wing, MacKay's defense has to be discounted somewhat, as you simply can have a larger impact playing center, which he did a lot during his career. We hear about Frank Nighbor modeling his game after MacKay, surely that is coming from MacKay's time at Center.

I'll dive into this in full, but when MacKay played wing (I have quotes in the bio to support this) he was still super effective defensively. I'd have Walker and MacKay right around the next tier after the uber elite forwards defensively.

Unless otherwise noted, he is listed at F (when C is listed) or across from a notable RW or LW while Frank Boucher is listed across from the C
The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]08 Mar 1923: 16.
Towards the close of the game the Cougars rallied and Frederickson, who had been dogged and checked to death by MacKay and Boucher finally outstripped his rivals by some fast skating and broke through…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]06 Nov 1924: 4.
Vancouver fans sat back and howled for forwards that could score while Skinner, Frank Boucher and the MacKay followed instructions to the letter, paid more attention to back checking than to attacking saw their goal averages suffer but the games won until the team found itself in the final for the Stanley Cup.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]26 Mar 1921: 30.
….Scarcely a minute later MacKay hooked the rubber away from Nighbor……

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]13 Mar 1922: 12.
Cook, Duncan and MacKay herded the raiders into the trap and blocked them on some dangerous runs. They formed a wonderful trio in front of the Vancouver goal….
None of their (Vancouver) forwards wasted time or energy trying to fight their way through to the Regina cage and run the chance of the Caps breaking away and plunging past a weakened barricade.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]09 Jan 1923: 14.
MacKay listed across from Lalonde just as F
The forwards back checked in amazing style and broke up play after play before it had hardly got underway. Without a doubt the Vancouver machine is the greatest that has ever appeared here…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]17 Feb 1925: 13.
The maroons continued their strong defensive tactics, seemingly content to the let the waves of prairie rushes break on the phalanx of Moran, Duncan and MacKay

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]20 Mar 1923: 16.
At the face-off Cy Dennny seized the puck and got as far as the Vancouver blue line where MacKay’s hook check cut short his progresss…Ottawa came back strongly with brilliant two men and three men attacks which went to pieces on MacKay’s defence.

 

[ResilientBeast]

With all due respect, I don't think it matters that you've never seen Benn's defense. There are multiple quotes in the bio I made referencing his defense/two-way play/work away from the puck (note away from the puck is not always defense related), and these are not single game accounts. I don't see any reason why Benn wouldn't be considered an equal to Roberts here.
Benn is being asked to be the 3rd best defensive player and major physical presence (with two other players who are chippy) on a strong two-way line, and I think he fits the role perfectly.

I saw those quotes and was pretty surprised because I don't think they match everything we know about Benn as an ATD player. I see two anecdotal comments from Babcock and Yahoo sports. I'd call him average for the league now which would be below average for an ATD, does that seem fair?

 

[The Macho King]

I saw those quotes and was pretty surprised because I don't think they match everything we know about Benn as an ATD player. I see two anecdotal comments from Babcock and Yahoo sports. I'd call him average for the league now which would be below average for an ATD, does that seem fair?

Benn plays physical and borderline dirty, which I think lends itself to a lot of "good away from the puck" sort of analysis. But calling him good defensively even for today is a stretch.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'll dive into this in full, but when MacKay played wing (I have quotes in the bio to support this) he was still super effective defensively. I'd have Walker and MacKay right around the next tier after the uber elite forwards defensively.

Unless otherwise noted, he is listed at F (when C is listed) or across from a notable RW or LW while Frank Boucher is listed across from the C
The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]08 Mar 1923: 16.
Towards the close of the game the Cougars rallied and Frederickson, who had been dogged and checked to death by MacKay and Boucher finally outstripped his rivals by some fast skating and broke through…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]06 Nov 1924: 4.
Vancouver fans sat back and howled for forwards that could score while Skinner, Frank Boucher and the MacKay followed instructions to the letter, paid more attention to back checking than to attacking saw their goal averages suffer but the games won until the team found itself in the final for the Stanley Cup.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]26 Mar 1921: 30.
….Scarcely a minute later MacKay hooked the rubber away from Nighbor……

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]13 Mar 1922: 12.
Cook, Duncan and MacKay herded the raiders into the trap and blocked them on some dangerous runs. They formed a wonderful trio in front of the Vancouver goal….
None of their (Vancouver) forwards wasted time or energy trying to fight their way through to the Regina cage and run the chance of the Caps breaking away and plunging past a weakened barricade.

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]09 Jan 1923: 14.
MacKay listed across from Lalonde just as F
The forwards back checked in amazing style and broke up play after play before it had hardly got underway. Without a doubt the Vancouver machine is the greatest that has ever appeared here…..

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]17 Feb 1925: 13.
The maroons continued their strong defensive tactics, seemingly content to the let the waves of prairie rushes break on the phalanx of Moran, Duncan and MacKay

The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]20 Mar 1923: 16.
At the face-off Cy Dennny seized the puck and got as far as the Vancouver blue line where MacKay’s hook check cut short his progresss…Ottawa came back strongly with brilliant two men and three men attacks which went to pieces on MacKay’s defence.

These are nice single game accounts of MacKay playing well defensively, but nothing that would substantiate him as an all-time elite defensive forward like calling him the best of his era. To be clear, I think he is very good defensively, but not on H. Richard's level.

No argument on where you have Walker