ATD2021 FINAL - Orillia Terriers vs. Guelph Platers

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Lester Patrick

Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky "C" - Charlie Conacher "A"
Brad Marchand - Marty Barry - Bobby Bauer
Artemi Panarin - Cooney Weiland - Claude Provost
Brian Sutter - Camille Henry - Floyd Curry

Scott Niedermayer "A" - Drew Doughty
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Ryan McDonagh - P.K. Subban

Jacques Plante
Henrik Lundqvist

Spares: Lynn Patrick, Jack Marshall, Carol Vadnais

PP1: Conacher-Gretzky-Henry-Subban-Stapleton
PP2: Marchand-Barry-Bauer-Doughty-Niedermayer

PK1: Weiland-Provost-McDonagh-White
PK2: Phillips-Curry-Niedermayer-Doughty
PK3: Marchand-Gretzky


vs.​


images

Guelph Platers
1986 Memorial Cup Champions

Home Rink: Guelph Memorial Gardens (1948)
GM: BraveCanadian
Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Syl Apps Sr.
Alternates: Hap Day / Sylvio Mantha


Alexander Ovechkin - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Paul Thompson - Syl Apps Sr. - Alf Smith
Kevin Stevens - John Tavares - Bobby Rousseau
Gilles Tremblay - Don Luce - Jean Pronovost

"Moose" Johnson - Brad Park
Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha
Andrei Markov - Jiri Bubla

Ken Dryden
Pekka Rinne

Reserves
Nathan MacKinnon - Bill Hajt - Jason Pominville

Powerplay:
PP1: Alexander Ovechkin - Syl Apps Sr. - Bryan Hextall Sr. - Andrei Markov - Brad Park
PP2: Paul Thompson - Adam Oates - Kevin Stevens - Bobby Rousseau - Jiri Bubla

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Don Luce - Gilles Tremblay - Moose Johnson - Sylvio Mantha
PK2: Adam Oates - Jean Pronovost - Hap Day - Brad Park
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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Good luck gentlemen. Let's get this started!

@Dreakmur
@BraveCanadian

I flipped a coin to decide which team would appear first in the post, as both teams were 1st seed in their division. As I see it, no one has home advantage in this series.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Love the 1st lines, the top-4-D-with-great-goalie defensive alignments. :) No 2nd rate goalies or weak blueline cores in this series.

Loathe Weiland vs. Tavares as 3rd line pivot ATD champions. Will not be happy either way at that position. :(
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Thanks. im walking to dinner in.a restaurant with a.friend. will check out tomorrow. im not one.of those guys who checks.their phones when out with others. G'day.
 

Dreakmur

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Loathe Weiland vs. Tavares as 3rd line pivot ATD champions. Will not be happy either way at that position. :(

Weiland has a pretty well established reputation as a good defensive player. He’s no shut-down specialist that’s for sure, but he’s a legit two-way player.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Please provite a few legit quotes.

His vs.x is boosted by an absurd half-season of new rules with no off sides that he has been identified as an opportunist of: standing at the other end of the rink awaiting assists.

I have repeated my disdain of his stats that year for over a decade. I have never drafted Weiland (nor Tavares) in all my 15+ years here. Both are at best 13th forward fill-ins imo.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Please provite a few legit quotes.

The linked bio has all the quotes.

Also, there is an earlier bio done with many good quotes. That was made by some guy named Dirt 101.

His vs.x is boosted by an absurd half-season of new rules with no off sides that he has been identified as an opportunist of: standing at the other end of the rink awaiting assists.

That has been debunked several times.... and wouldn’t matter anyway. He accomplished what he did under the rules of the time.

I have repeated my disdain of his stats that year for over a decade. I have never drafted Weiland (nor Tavares) in all my 15+ years here. Both are at best 13th forward fill-ins imo.

You did a bio on Weiland in 2013, so I’m quite sure you drafted him that year.
 
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VanIslander

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Ah, I re-united the Red Wings top line of Lewis-Weiland-Aurie as a regrettable Plan B that year as I lost out on Marty Barry, the HHOF center who had replaced Weiland and auromatically led the Wings to back-to-back Stanley Cups, his coach saying he brought the physicality that line had been missing.
 

Dreakmur

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Ah, I re-united the Red Wings top line of Lewis-Weiland-Aurie as a regrettable Plan B that year as I lost out on Marty Barry, the HHOF center who had replaced Weiland and auromatically led the Wings to back-to-back Stanley Cups, his coach saying he brought the physicality that line had been missing.

Marty Barry is better than Cooney Weiland. That is definitely true.

Here are some of those quotes you wanted:

Legends of Hockey said:
his offensive totals might have been even greater than they were had Weiland not also been such an adept penalty killer.

Legendary NHL Coaches: Stars of Hockey's Golden Age said:
Weiland made his name as a penalty killing specialist

Eddie Shore and That Old Time Hockey said:
not only a defensive wonder, but shifty on the attack.

Eddie Shore and That Old Time Hockey said:
With his poke check and hook check, Weiland was a pest...

Kip Farrington Jr. said:
Weiland was a great face-off man, one of the best I've ever seen. He also was - like Hooley Smith and Frank Nighbor - an excellent three-way stick checker. He was a master of the poke, sweep and hook checks.

....

Cooney was outstanding at breaking up power plays.

Daily Boston Globe - March 9 said:
is the best defensive center in the league...

Hartford Courant - February 3 said:
Cooney has proved to be one of the best defensive players in the league.

Daily Boston Globe - March 19 said:
Cooney Weiland the other center player is proficient in breaking up plays as well as dangerous on the attack.

The Calgary Daily Herald - October 26 said:
Cooney Weiland foiled many Maroon leads with his tricky footwork and poke check, .

The Calgary Daily Herald - October 26 said:
Weiland, the master of the poke and hook check, has been elected captain of the Boston Bruins.
 
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VanIslander

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Nice quotes.

Still salty about his ONE offensive season, identified as one of the guys who took advantage of that season's no offside rule to not backcheck and instead park himself in front of the opposition's net.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Nice quotes.

Still salty about his ONE offensive season, identified as one of the guys who took advantage of that season's no offside rule to not backcheck and instead park himself in front of the opposition's net.

This has seriously been debunked multiple times, and yet you still keep posting it.

So I'll do it again: Offsides was instituted about halfway through the season, and Weiland actually scored at a higher rate relative to the league AFTER offsides was instituted, not before. His Art Ross winning season was an outlier, but it was legit.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Weiland still cashed in a lot of easy points to his season total in the first half.

Comparing his later half to others is beside the point of: boosted season total.

He never before or since had a season like that one.
 

ResilientBeast

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Weiland still cashed in a lot of easy points to his season total in the first half.

Comparing his later half to others is beside the point of: boosted season total.

He never before or since had a season like that one.

What are you on about? TDMM just pointed out that he scored higher relative to the league after the offsides were introduced.

So clearly while he and others could take advantage of the no offside it wasn't the driver for his scoring
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Feb 23, 2010
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Loathe Weiland vs. Tavares as 3rd line pivot ATD champions. Will not be happy either way at that position.
That's the state of things these days- and one of our Finalists addressed this point earlier:
...the death of pure 3rd line checkers for the most part and many of us have picked up players that can pot some ES points on those 3rd and 4th lines more than in the past.
Weiland... never before or since had a season like that one.
Wow. That's a bigger freak season than Brent Sutter's 1984-1985 season. I know how Sutter did it. That year, Bossy was his Wing. That'll work.

Those who don't like present explanations on Weiland's 1929-1930 season are invited to offer better ones.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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That's the state of things these days- and one of our Finalists addressed this point earlier:
Wow. That's a bigger freak season than Brent Sutter's 1984-1985 season. I know how Sutter did it. That year, Bossy was his Wing. That'll work.

Those who don't like present explanations on Weiland's 1929-1930 season are invited to offer better ones.

Weiland actually finished 9th in NHL scoring the very next year after winning the Art Ross, his 2nd best scoring finish ever. So while his 1929-30 was definitely a spike season, it's not as crazy as it looks at first - everyone who did well in 1929-30 did so with higher point totals than surrounding years. Overpass examined Weiland's season in detail back in 2018:

overpass said:
Weiland’s scoring wasn’t particularly high before the rule change in December of 1929, He was among the league leaders, possibly the leader, but he wasn’t running away with the scoring title before the rule change.

Weiland was neck and neck with Frank Boucher that year up until the last 2 weeks of the season. At that point he had some big multipoint games in blowout wins and won the scoring title going away.

Edit: Reposting an old post of mine from the history board.

This article gives NHL scoring leaders as of December 24, 1929 - one week after the rules were changed. Here are the numbers for all players named in the article. (GP listed are their teams' games played.)

1. Frank Boucher - 14 GP, 9 goals, 15 assists, 24 points
2. Cooney Weiland - 14 GP, 11 goals, 12 assists, 23 points
3. Bill Cook - 14 GP, 22 points
4. Player G - 14 GP, 22 points
5. Player K - 14 GP, 14 G, 7 A, 21 points
6. Nels Stewart - 15 GP, 17 G, 4 A, 21 points
7. Aurel Joliat - 16 GP, 20 points
8. King Clancy - 14 GP, 19 points

Doing the math, over the rest of the season these players scored:

1. Cooney Weiland - 30 GP, 32 G, 18 A, 50 points
2. Frank Boucher - 28 GP, 17 G, 21 A, 38 points
3. Bill Cook - 30 GP, 37 points
4. Player K - 30 GP, 22 G, 15 A, 37 points
5. Nels Stewart - 29 GP, 22 G, 12 A, 34 points
6. Player G - 28 GP, 27 points
7. King Clancy - 30 GP, 21 points
8. Aurel Joliat - 26 GP, 11 points

All players who weren't listed here finished with 50 or fewer points on the season, with the exception of Dit Clapper who scored 61 on the season (meaning Clapper had a slow start, possibly playing some defence, and then matched Weiland’s production after the rule change).

When you look at the scoring list from the last two-thirds of the season, played entirely with the offside rule in place, Weiland separated himself from the rest of the league in scoring during this time. The games played without the offside rule had very little to do with Weiland's scoring title.

Frank Boucher was leading in scoring right up until the end of February. As of February 18 he had 58 points and Weiland had 52. Source. But over the rest of the season Weiland scored 21 points in 9 team games and Boucher scored 4 points in 10 team games. Weiland passed him during the game of Feb 25 when Boston beat Pittsburgh 7-0 and Weiland scored four goals and one assist to reach 61 points to Boucher's 59. Source. Boucher missed the last two games of the season with a broken shoulder blade, and Weiland scored three goals against the weakened Rangers in the final game of the season to put a stamp on his record-setting season. Source.
ATD2018 - Draft Thread 2

And more details last year:

overpass said:
1929-30 NHL Season Introducing the Forward Pass

And now the NHL has game logs for all players, so it's much easier to look this up now.

Cooney Weiland Stats and News

9 goals, 9 assists, 18 points in 12 games for Weiland before the league changed the rule on December 16. He was actually held without a point in 4 of those 12 games, including 3 home games. Meaning after the rule change he scored 34 goals, 21 assists, and 55 points in 34 games.

If there's a reason to take Weiland's scoring title with a grain of salt, it's that he won the scoring title on the strength of his final month of the season, when Boston had already clinched first overall and had nothing to play for. Frank Boucher was ahead in scoring in mid-February but injured his shoulder in late February and fell off the pace. But that's the kind of thing that happens regularly in scoring races, not a unique historical outlier.

Frank Boucher Stats and News

ATD2020 Draft Thread III
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Historical ATD question - how many times has Gretzky ended up in the finals? I don't recall seeing it.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Weiland still cashed in a lot of easy points to his season total in the first half.

Comparing his later half to others is beside the point of: boosted season total.

He never before or since had a season like that one.

Yes, his Art Ross season was easily the best season of his career. Yes, we should look at it an an outlier. No, we shouldn’t treat it like it never happened. That is literally the entire reason we use the 7 season vs.X system. Looking at the average of 7 seasons does give credit for all accomplishments, but reduces the impact of single abnormal seasons.

Over his 5 year peak, he was the 6th leading scoring in the league. Over his 10 year peak, he was the 6th leading scorer. Seems he was pretty consistently a good scorer.

Perhaps more importantly right now, Weiland led playoff scoring twice.
 

VanIslander

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1. Weiland's 7-year vs.x should NOT include an incredibly boosted freaky stand-by-crease always half season of shooting ducks in a barrel.

2. And was Weiland the #1 scorer over the half season AFTER the no-offside rule died? Comparing him to the league average would be bonus. He fimished his one monster season 1st in total season scoring, thanks in large part to his parking commitment. He is identified as a guy who florished under the wacky misguided rule change that year, until it was abandoned.
 

ResilientBeast

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1. Weiland's 7-year vs.x should NOT include an incredibly boosted freaky stand-by-crease always half season of shooting ducks in a barrel.

2. And was Weiland the #1 scorer over the half season AFTER the no-offside rule died? Comparing him to the league average would be bonus. He fimished his one monster season 1st in total season scoring, thanks in large part to his parking commitment. He is identified as a guy who florished under the wacky misguided rule change that year, until it was abandoned.

You keep saying the same stuff despite people repeatedly trying to explain where you're wrong lol
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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1. Weiland's 7-year vs.x should NOT include an incredibly boosted freaky stand-by-crease always half season of shooting ducks in a barrel.

2. And was Weiland the #1 scorer over the half season AFTER the no-offside rule died? Comparing him to the league average would be bonus. He fimished his one monster season 1st in total season scoring, thanks in large part to his parking commitment. He is identified as a guy who florished under the wacky misguided rule change that year, until it was abandoned.

I'll simplify overpass's post:

Forward pass allowed for the first time, no offsides rule yet, players could camp in front of the goal:

1. Frank Boucher - 14 GP, 9 goals, 15 assists, 24 points
2. Cooney Weiland - 14 GP, 11 goals, 12 assists, 23 points
3. Bill Cook - 14 GP, 22 points

Rule against offsides added, meaning the rest of the season was played under the exact same rules as the rest of the 1930s:

1. Cooney Weiland - 30 GP, 32 G, 18 A, 50 points
2. Frank Boucher - 28 GP, 17 G, 21 A, 38 points
3. Bill Cook - 30 GP, 37 points

Weiland's Art Ross in 1929-30 is just as legit as any other win in the 1930s.

Outlier seasons happen.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
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I'll simplify overpass's post:

Forward pass allowed for the first time, no offsides rule yet, players could camp in front of the goal:

1. Frank Boucher - 14 GP, 9 goals, 15 assists, 24 points
2. Cooney Weiland - 14 GP, 11 goals, 12 assists, 23 points
3. Bill Cook - 14 GP, 22 points

Rule against offsides added, meaning the rest of the season was played under the exact same rules as the rest of the 1930s:

1. Cooney Weiland - 30 GP, 32 G, 18 A, 50 points
2. Frank Boucher - 28 GP, 17 G, 21 A, 38 points
3. Bill Cook - 30 GP, 37 points

Weiland's Art Ross in 1929-30 is just as legit as any other win in the 1930s.

Outlier seasons happen.
Adding onto this...

Who cares if the Ross came in a season with no offsides (not that it did)? It's not like he was the only one playing under those rules. We don't ding players who won in the no forward pass era or the Rover era or the No Red-line era because the rules were different. Why would we make the exception here?
 

VanIslander

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Thanks TDMM. Someone finally referenced my second point.

Now how the heck could any stock be put into Weiland's 7-year vs.x?

Cooney had 43 friggin' goals that year, having no more than 16 goals in 10 of 11 of his other career years.

I have read history books that profile him as the #1 opportunist of the no-offside rule change and as a nonphysical center whose departure from Detroit (Barry replacement) heralded in Stanley Cup championships.

PLEASE calculate his 7-year.vs.x WITHOUT that rule-crazy year. It will suck big time.

The emperor has little clothes.

Fortunately he has intangibles against a MUCH better offensive center (a legit 3-time top 5 NHL goal scorer in a huge league; two-time Hart finalist), and so Weiland as at least a 4th line ATD pivot has a decent case whereas Tavares ain't good enough for a ATD top-6 role and should be a bench replacement unless both wingers bring defense and intangibles in a kinda two-way 3rd line.
 
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