ATD2019 Conference Final - Chicago Shamrocks vs. Sokovia Recorders

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Chicago Shamrocks
shamrock-mackenzie.jpg


Coach: Fred Shero

Patrick Elias - Milt Schmidt (A) - Guy Lafleur
Sweeney Schriner - Joe Malone - Cecil Dillon
Brad Marchand - Neil Colville - Claude Provost
Zach Parise - Edgar Laprade - Ryan Kesler
Spares: Pat Lafontaine, Bob Davidson

Scott Stevens (C) - Red Kelly
Herb Gardiner - Georges Boucher (A)
Jim Neilson - P.K. Subban
Spares: Red Dutton, Rod Seiling

Vladislav Tretiak
Rogie Vachon


Special Teams
PP1: Schriner - Malone - Lafleur - Subban - Kelly
PP2: Elias - Schmidt - Parise - Gardiner - Boucher

PK1: Kesler - Dillon - Stevens - Neilson
PK2: Laprade - Provost/Colville - Gardiner - Boucher
Extra F: Schmidt, Marchand
Extra D: Kelly


vs.


Sokovia Recorders


Punch Imlach
Roger Neilson


Cy Denneny - Syl Apps "A" - George Armstrong "C"
Roy Conacher - Jean Ratelle - Bill Cook "A"
Bob Pulford - Anze Kopitar - Corey Perry
Kevin Stevens - Cooney Weiland - Rick Tocchet


Jacques Laperriere - Eddie Shore
Moose Johnson - Jimmy Thomson
Sergei Gonchar - Terry Harper


Ken Dryden
Tiny Thompson


PP1: Denneny-Apps-Cook-Gonchar-Shore
PP2: Conacher-Ratelle-Perry-Laperriere-Thomson


PK1: Pulford-Armstrong-Johnson-Harper
PK2: Kopitar-Weiland-Laperriere-Thomson


Spares:
Bruce Stuart, F
Joe Primeau, C
Carol Vadnais, D

 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
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Chicago, IL
Regular Season Estimated Minutes for Chicago
Forwards
PlayerESPPPKTotal
P. Elias132 15
M. Schmidt153 18
G. Lafleur155 20
S. Schriner135 18
J. Malone14*4 18
C. Dillon13 316
B. Marchand12 12
N. Colville13 114
C. Provost12 315
Z. Parise62 8
E. Laprade6 39
R. Kesler6 410
TOTAL1382114173
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
*Joe Malone will play some shifts at LW on the top line

Defense
PlayerESPPPKTotal
S. Stevens20 424
R. Kelly205 25
H. Gardiner162321
G. Boucher163322
J. Nielson10 414
P.K. Subban104 14
TOTAL
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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I'll get started on this tomorrow. There are some really interesting comparisons that I'm keen to look at here:

Syl Apps vs. Milt Schmidt
Bill Cook vs. Guy Lafleur
Eddie Shore vs. Red Kelly
Punch Imlach vs. Fred Shero
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Ok, let's look at Bill Cook and Guy Lafleur!

Offensive Finishes:
Lafleur
Points - 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
Goals - 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 7
Assists - 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 7

Cook
Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 10
Goals - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 6, 6, 6, 10
Assists - 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9

Offensive Percentages:
Lafleur
7 season vs.X - 104.6
10 season vs. X - 91.0

Cook
7 season vs. X - 104.4
10 season vs. X - 95.9

Play-off Finishes:
Lafleur
Points - 1, 1, 1, 2, 3
Goals - 1, 1, 2, 3, 3
Assists - 1, 1, 2, 4

Cook
Points - 2, 3, 5, 5, 8
Goals - 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8
Assists - 1, 3, 4, 6

So, it appears that Bill Cook is a little better in regular season offense, and Guy Lafleur is quite a bit better in play-off scoring. In these ATD play-off series, I use their regular season scoring rates as the benchmark. How each player performed in the play-offs, compared to their regular seasons, is how they play here. Guy Lafleur's scoring goes down in the play-offs, but only by about the league average, so I say he is about the same player in the play-offs. Bill Cook's scoring also goes down in the play-offs, but it is more than the league average, so I say he is a lesser player in the play-offs.

Does Cook's drop in play-off production bring him down to Lafleur's level? Does it bring him lower? I think they are close enough in the regular season, that for this play-off series, Lafleur is probably going to be better offensively, though the margin will be very small.

Cook still bring the imposing physical play that Lafleur does not, so I think that makes these two very close as overall players.
 
Last edited:

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Let's do Syl Apps and Milt Schmidt next...

As I mentioned in your previous series, I give credit to guys like Milt Schmidt for the years they served in WW2. I took the 3 seasons before he left and the 3 seasons after he came back to create an average, which is the score he gets for the years missed. With that formula, Schmidt comes away with a 7 season vs. X score of 91.7.

Syl Apps also missed time. Using the exact same formula, Apps comes away with a 7 season vs. X score of 97.1.

How does that formula hold up? Let's compare Apps to a contemporary player who played through the War Years. Bill Cowley has a 7 season vs. X score of 97.0. Does a score of 97.1 make sense for Apps? In the six seasons leading up to Apps' departure, he scored 250 points in 245 games. Cowley scored 246 points in 250 games. That's just one comparable, but based on that, it appears to create a very fair value. For comparison, Schmidt scored 194 points in 240 games in that time.

So, Apps is the better offensive player in the regular season. Milt Schmidt, however, does bring a very good defensive game, and physical play, that Apps simply does not. As overall players, I think they're pretty even.

Play-off Point finishes:
Apps - 2, 2, 4, 5, 8, 8, 10
Schmidt - 1, 4, 6, 8

Apps looks to be the better play-off performer. I think that makes him a little better in this head to head match-up.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Eddie Shore vs. Red Kelly...

Hart voting:
Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5
Kelly - 2, 3, 3, 4, 8, 10

I'm not sure how much we can gather from that. Hart voting over the years has really changed over time. In Shore's era, defensemen got a lot of Hart recognition.

All-Star voting:
Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5
Kelly - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6

Based on these voting resuts, Eddie Shore was very clearly viewed as a much better defenseman during his era. Kelly had another 5 good seasons as a forward, but they were more depth seasons than anything that would add to his peak.

Scoring Finishes:
Shore
Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8
Play-off Points - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7

Kelly
Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 10
Play-off Points - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 8, 8, 8

In terms of offensive dominance, both players were pretty similar at their peaks. Shore simply did it for longer. Both guys were pretty comparable in the play-offs.

Scoring Percentages:
Shore
7 season vs. X - 114.7
10 season vs. X - 109.1

Kelly
7 season vs. X - 116.3
10 season vs. X - 103.8

Kelly has 1 really dominant season that gives him a boost on his top vs. X value.


Does anybody know how much Kelly actually played forward? I know he filled in there for injuries at times. No idea if it was enough to impact his offensive totals.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Eddie Shore vs. Red Kelly... Hart voting: Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5 Kelly - 2, 3, 3, 4, 8, 10 I'm not sure how much we can gather from that. Hart voting over the years has really changed over time. In Shore's era, defensemen got a lot of Hart recognition. All-Star voting: Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5 Kelly - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6 Based on these voting resuts, Eddie Shore was very clearly viewed as a much better defenseman during his era. Kelly had another 5 good seasons as a forward, but they were more depth seasons than anything that would add to his peak. Scoring Finishes: Shore Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 Play-off Points - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7 Kelly Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 10 Play-off Points - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 8, 8, 8 In terms of offensive dominance, both players were pretty similar at their peaks. Shore simply did it for longer. Both guys were pretty comparable in the play-offs. Scoring Percentages: Shore 7 season vs. X - 114.7 10 season vs. X - 109.1 Kelly 7 season vs. X - 116.3 10 season vs. X - 103.8 Kelly has 1 really dominant season that gives him a boost on his top vs. X value. Does anybody know how much Kelly actually played forward? I know he filled in there for injuries at times. No idea if it was enough to impact his offensive totals.
Eddie Shore vs. Red Kelly... Hart voting: Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5 Kelly - 2, 3, 3, 4, 8, 10 I'm not sure how much we can gather from that. Hart voting over the years has really changed over time. In Shore's era, defensemen got a lot of Hart recognition. All-Star voting: Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5 Kelly - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6 Based on these voting resuts, Eddie Shore was very clearly viewed as a much better defenseman during his era. Kelly had another 5 good seasons as a forward, but they were more depth seasons than anything that would add to his peak. Scoring Finishes: Shore Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 Play-off Points - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7 Kelly Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 10 Play-off Points - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 8, 8, 8 In terms of offensive dominance, both players were pretty similar at their peaks. Shore simply did it for longer. Both guys were pretty comparable in the play-offs. Scoring Percentages: Shore 7 season vs. X - 114.7 10 season vs. X - 109.1 Kelly 7 season vs. X - 116.3 10 season vs. X - 103.8 Kelly has 1 really dominant season that gives him a boost on his top vs. X value. Does anybody know how much Kelly actually played forward? I know he filled in there for injuries at times. No idea if it was enough to impact his offensive totals.
Eddie Shore vs. Red Kelly... Hart voting: Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5 Kelly - 2, 3, 3, 4, 8, 10 I'm not sure how much we can gather from that. Hart voting over the years has really changed over time. In Shore's era, defensemen got a lot of Hart recognition. All-Star voting: Shore - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5 Kelly - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6 Based on these voting resuts, Eddie Shore was very clearly viewed as a much better defenseman during his era. Kelly had another 5 good seasons as a forward, but they were more depth seasons than anything that would add to his peak. Scoring Finishes: Shore Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 Play-off Points - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7 Kelly Points - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 10 Play-off Points - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 8, 8, 8 In terms of offensive dominance, both players were pretty similar at their peaks. Shore simply did it for longer. Both guys were pretty comparable in the play-offs. Scoring Percentages: Shore 7 season vs. X - 114.7 10 season vs. X - 109.1 Kelly 7 season vs. X - 116.3 10 season vs. X - 103.8 Kelly has 1 really dominant season that gives him a boost on his top vs. X value. Does anybody know how much Kelly actually played forward? I know he filled in there for injuries at times. No idea if it was enough to impact his offensive totals.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Brooklyn
Thanks! (My phone was really crapping out last night)

What I meant to say is that, in Detroit, Kelly often played forward on the PP, but at even strength, he only played significant forward for about 1/4 of 1955-56 (the season he finished 4th in Hart voting but was only a 2nd Team AS at D).

I have no doubt that Kelly peaked at a similar height to Shore, but he wasn't at that peak for nearly as long as Shore.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Lineup Change for Chicago

Out: Zach Parise
In: Bob Davidson

Davidson will give some extra help in checking Bill Cook.
Brad Marchand will take Parise's spot on the 2nd PP unit.

I'll say that this makes me happy. The Marchand-Colville-Provost line was one of the few that had the ES scoring power that matches my trio of Pulford-Kopitar-Perry. More importantly, I don't think Davidson is equipped to handle Bill Cook.
 

Namba 17

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May 9, 2011
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Sokovia doesn't match Imlach. Like at all.
Too many not Imlach type of players.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Looks like namba already knew everything about Punch Imlach and didn’t need to read the biography. I suppose I’ll provide a brief summary of what I learned... just in case there are other people who don’t already know everything about a coach who has never been profiled in the ATD before.

Imlach was a taskmaster, and worked the players very hard in training camp and practices. Players who don’t like to work hard will not do well under this coach.

While he did demand hard work, which I would assume does include backchecking, it seems he was not a stickler for strict defensive systems. Many of his players talked about how he loosened the restrictions placed on them by the previous coach. Tim Horton specifically talked about how Imlach encouraged him to rush more, be more creative, and made him confident and unafraid to make mistakes. I specifically brought in Roger Neilson to add some more defensive structure.

The feuds with most of his players are explained in the bio. Other players on the team said Carl Brewer was a troublemaker. Andy Bathgate and Jim Pappin were lazy - in a later interview Pappin even said he wished he could apologize to Imlach and admitted he didn’t always do his best. The Mahovlich one, I must admit, confuses me. I couldn’t really find a real reason for their spat. The most consistent theme seemed to be that too much pressure was put on Mahovlich to be great - he was so talented and seemed so effortless. Media, fans, and especially Imlach put too much pressure on him, and Mahovlich eventually shut down.

The biggest problem most players had with Imlach seemed to be how he negotiated contracts. He would refuse to negotiate ahead of time, always waiting to the last minute. Imlach thought that this tactic would push his players to work out harder over the summer. He was also a tough negotiator, which obviously didn’t endear himself to his players. This, however, is not something that he will be doing in the ATD. He’s not the GM.

So, the important question is what kinds of players don’t fit into an “Imlach team”?

Lazy players - who on Sokovia fits that? While nothing is written about Cy Denneny being lazy, I personally get the feeling his effort was inconsistent. The descriptions of his backchecking is consistently good in the playoff reports, but inconsistent in the season reports. What makes sense to me is that he sometimes got complacent in the regular season. Would Denneny work hard all season, as he did in the playoffs, or would he clash with Imlach?

Selfish players - who on Sokovia fits that? I actually don’t see any players who would clash with Imlach and his team first approach.

Free spirits - which players on Sokovia would push back against Imlach’s authoritarian style coaching? The player I can see doing that is Eddie Shore. He was such a big personality and he was into some theatrical aspects that Imlach wouldn’t appreciate. Later in his career, Shore actually became a coach and GM with a similar reputation to Imlach. Sometimes similar personalities mesh well, and other times clash. Ken Dryden was a weird personality too, but doesn’t strike me as the kind to really clash with coaches. Imlach likely wouldn’t like how he did so many non-hockey things in his off time.
 

Namba 17

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May 9, 2011
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Imlach was described as a coach, who prefer to win 0 to -1. His system was a defense first. Your team is good, you just chose wrong coach for this team.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Imlach was described as a coach, who prefer to win 0 to -1. His system was a defense first.

Described by who?

I’ve always thought that too, but it was never really based on anything other than cannon. In researching for his bio, I found nothing that suggested he was a coach he demanded strict defensive play.

Many of his players dispute that notion. None that I have found support it.

If you have anything concrete to add, I’d love to see it, and add it to the bio.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
There are a lot of similar strengths and weaknesses between these two teams. The top-6 forwards are pretty similar. The goalies are pretty similar. The coaches are pretty similar. Most of the blueline is similar. I see one MAJOR advantage for each team, which could give them an advantage.


Why Sokovia could win this series:

Significant advantage in the bottom 6.
On the 3rd lines, using ES vs. X scores, Sokovia's line has a much better combined score of 157. Chicago has 133.
On the 4th lines, Sokovia's line again has a much beter score of 150. Chicago has 136.

Chicago's elite checker - Claude Provost - is lined up on the wrong side to really check Sokovia's top scoring threat - Bill Cook.
Sokovia's elite checker - Bob Pulford - is lined up to go head-to-head with Chicago's Guy Lafleur.

Why Chicago could win this series:

Significant advantage at the #2 defenseman slot.

I was quite happy to Jacques Laperriere to play with Shore, but he's still one the low end for #2s. Scott Stevens, on the other hand, is an elite #2. He's probably a passable #1, even in a small draft. At the top ends of their careers, the voting record is similar, but Stevens ends up with a half dozen extra lower top-10s in Norris.

If you cancel out all their equal votes, here's what's left...

Stevens
2nd(1994), 3rd(2001), 6th(1987), 6th(1999), 7th(1991), 10th(1989), 10th(1993), 10th(2000), 10th(2002)

Leperierre
1st(1966), 8th(1967)
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
I think Chicago has a big edge on defense. Also, Kelly could always play forward if needed

Stevens over Laperriere is he edge.

Shore is a little better than Kelly, but it’s close.

Johnson-Thomson is a little better than Gardiner-Boucher, but not by much.

Gonchar-Harper and Neilson-Subban are pretty close too.

The only thing that isn’t close is Stevens and Laperriere.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
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Congrats to HT18 for reaching the final.

Dreakmur deserved better this year, he was the most active GM and his team was too a worthy contender.Good job on the bios too.
 

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