ATD2011 William Northey Semis: (1) New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. (4) Garnish Phantoms

[DaveG]

I don't know if I would say that Pulford could handle Rat Portege's speed (really jist the speed of Tommy Phillips, correct? I don't know anything about the speed of other players on the team though perhaps someone else does). In fact, while Ottawa won that series, there is a very real chance that Ottawa flooded their rink (in other words, cheated) to slow down Tommy Phillips. This account is towards the bottom of the extensive bio I made of him (and is courtesy of 70s' research.

Kevin Stevens and Rick Tocchet are physical beasts, but they still have to contend with the physicality of Coulter, Pratt, Bilya, and Ley once they get in the zone, as well as the near-perfect positional play and stickwork of Quackenbush. You have a very powerful power forward on each of your two top lines, but I have a lot of physical strength coming from my defensemen, as well.

IIRC Billy McGimsie, Si Griffis and Tom Hooper were also noted for their speed from that Rat Portage team. I'll look to see what I can find for confirmation but I remember reading about that when I was looking up info on Hooper for the last MLD.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IIRC Billy McGimsie, Si Griffis and Tom Hooper were also noted for their speed from that Rat Portage team. I'll look to see what I can find for confirmation but I remember reading about that when I was looking up info on Hooper for the last MLD.

Griffis was definitely fast (forgot he was on that team and im on the iphone now), so i didnt bother looking it up. I honestly dint know much about the other two, other than they are in the Hall of Fame.

 

[tony d]

Time for me to chip in with comparisons between the 2 teams, again not as well-written as TDMM's but still my thoughts on the series.

Line 1:

Garnish offers Kevin Stevens, Joe Malone and Glenn Anderson. Stevens and Anderson should provide a scoring touch while Malone comes along as one of the best early scorers of hockey. Stevens and Anderson don't add the scoring touch a Malone does but they provide leadership and the ability to score when needed.

The Swamp Devils offer Tommy Phillips and the Richard brothers on their 1st line. Phillips was a good early star of the game. Henri has great experience as a Cup winner on all those Montreal teams. Never been as sold on Maurice as others have but even I'll admit the guy is one of the best players of all-time and should be the key offensive guy for the Swamp Devils.

Line 2:

Ray Whitney was drafted as a need pick but he is a great way to fill a need, a good playmaking winger who is still productive into his 30's. Doug Gilmour is of course Doug Gilmour. One of the best leaders in hockey over the past 20 years. He was an easy choice for our captain. Though the Tocchet pick was attacked I'm comfortable with the pick, Tocchet adds a scoring touch as well as grit to the line.

Herbie Lewis and Hec Kilrea where actually line mates in the NHL be interesting to see them matchup against 1 another. Starshinov is one of the top Soviets ever, a lack of size could hurt him though. Mayorov also has a lack of size but he was still a good scorer for those Russian teams.

Line 3:

We are going to have Rabbit Mcveigh, Butch Goring and Kevin Dineen as our 3rd line. Rabbit is one our better depth players, he was renowned for his defense in the early eras of the NHL. Goring is revered as a top depth centre, he adds a lot to this team. Dineen won't win any scoring titles but we're glad to have him and he's going to be good for the team.

Shane Doan, should the Coyotes leave Phoenix this year, may be the best player in the team's history. Don't know if he belongs on a 3rd line at this level though. Clint Smith reads as a pretty good player, never heard of him before but as I read about him he seems to be a good player. Ziggy Palffy was a good scorer during his time in the NHL and was one of the better scorers during the lockout era.

Line 4:

Kilrea adds grit to our bottom line which should benefit the line quite well.

Ronning was a good playmaking centre, playing alongside Sandstrom should get points from our bottom line.

Sandstrom offers our 4th line and our team loads of grit and scoring touch. He should matchup well with Bertuzzi.

The Swamp Devils offer a 4th line of Fleming Mackell-Michal Handzuz-Todd Bertuzzi. Mackell is by far the smartest player on this line which I think is a little weaker than the other lines for TDMM. Handzuz is a good defensive forward but he offers little to no offense which you would need if matched up against our offensive 4th line. Bertuzzi had a prime like few others but the guy has slipped tremendously since the lockout, so he could hinder more than help.

Defensive Pairings:

Pairing 1:

The Blake/Pulford pairing has been attacked due to a percieved lack of speed between the 2. I actually think that their toughness wins out here and that Blake's capabilities as an offensive defenseman should be appearing in this series.

Quackenbush was a great early era defenseman much the same as Pulford. Reading up on Coulter I see that speed was an issue for him as well. Our power forwards should attack that flaw in Coulter's game.

Pairing 2:

Svedberg and St.Laurent are our 2nd pairing. Svedberg was one of the best European defenseman on offense of all-time and may be our team's most pure offensive defenseman. Dollard St.Laurent was one of the key defenseman on the great canadiens teams of the mid to late 50's.

Bilyaletdinov was one of the better Russian defensive defensemans of all-time. He always played a key role with the Russian teams of the late 70's early 80's. Pratt just might be the best 2nd pairing defenseman in this draft, solid section. My question is who plays offense on this line?

Pairing 3:

Kevin Hatcher is another good offensive defenseman. He was offense-first but he has size so that should help us here. Chris Phillips may go down as one of the better pure defensive defenseman in the past few years.

Dan Boyle and Rick Ley is a good pairing and probably my favourite pairing of yours. Boyle adds the offense while Ley offers defense (Me and Dave had planned on picking him in the same round that you did so good pick):

Goalies:

Sawchuk to me is the #2 goalie of all-time, while you can debate players you picked there is no debating getting Sawchuk with our 1st pick, he was a tremendous goalie and could be our MVP throughout this process.

Kiprusoff gives us, what I think, is the best goaltending in the draft. While he'll see little action here. I'm sure Kipper will be an adequate fill-in should Sawchuk falter.

Charlie Gardiner is in that 2nd tier of all-time goalies. Not as good as Sawchuk but still good enough to be a believable #1 goalie in this.

"Sugar Jim" Henry is a good backup but injuries could hurt him and you in this especially if Gardiner falters.

Coaching:

Though Quinn never won a Cup I still like him, the way he rolled out different lines for different matchups should only help our team here.

Jaroslav Pitner was a good coach, beating a tough Soviet team was a great thing during his time. He should benefit your team quite well.

Extras:

Our extras include Rick Kehoe who gives the team offensive punch off the bench, Keith Acton adds defense to our team. Dick Redmond gives our team another option for an offensive defenseman and Dave Manson adds physicaility to our back end.

Gregg Sheppard, Jiri Lala and Alexei Zhitnik are all excellent spares. Lala and Zhitnik would be among my top picks in the MLd had they not gone here in the ATD. Not sure I like Larry Robinson as an assistant coach in this but that is due to the fact I don't like assistant coaches being picked in one of these drafts.

Final Thoughts:

Should be a good series, much closer than a 1-4 match would indicate. Good luck to you in the series TDMM

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A couple of notes on tony's comparison.

-Starshinov and Mayorov were of average height for their era, but both were known for their wide builds (Starsh was "built like a bear"), and both were known for their physical strength and aggressive style. *I agree that it's hard to take Mayorov seriously as a heavyweight due to his size, but I think he's a fine middleweight fighter here.

-Why doesn't Shane Doan belong on a third line? *He's better offensively than Tocchet, quite good defensively, and known as a power forward (though not as powerful as Rick). *His Team Canada scouting report calls him "a grinder with hands."

-Handzus is on the fourth line to Win face-offs, play well defensively, and protect the puck with his big body. *I think he's a prototypical 4th liner for a defensively oriented 4th line in a 40 team draft. *His offense is best described as "not terrible." at this level. *

-Where do you see that speed was an issue for Coulter? *Sturm just said it was "not a strength," which is true - as far as I'm aware not much has been written about his skating either way. *I don't think Blake is a poor skater by any means - he's pretty good, not great here. *Regardless, Quackenbush is the fastest skater on either top pair.
**
-I wish Pratt was the best second pairing guy in the draft, but I think the honor clearly goes to Paul Coffey after sturm's last lineup change... Heh. *Regardless, Pratt seems like a Rob Blake type to me - a big, physical offensive defenseman who is quite good*defensively...when he sets his mind to it. *Blake had a longer track record of elite play, so he's better, but They are stylistically similar IMO.

-Gardiner is definitely more than "good enough to be a starter." Sawchuk is better obviously, but I don't think the gap is all that huge. *There is a very real possibility that Gardiner peaked higher than any goalie before, well, Sawchuk. Hard to compare obviously, but right now I'm still taking Benedict for career among all goalies who played before the great Durnan/Brimsek/Broda trio of the 1940s. *But Gardiner may have peaked higher than Benedict (it's really hard to tell). *Gardiner was referred to as "the greatest goalie ever" even before he died, and seems to be the guy the 40s goalies were compared to. *

Anyway, I'll talk more about Gardiner if I have time. *You definitely have an advantage in goal, but I dont think it's a huge one. * Gardiner is definitely an above average starter in a 40 team draft.

-Given the fact that both starting goalies were great in the playoffs, and neither was known to be injury-prone, I think backups are more or less irrelevant. *Kipper is obviously better than Sugar Jim, and by a greater amount than the gap between the starters. *I just don't think it matters in the playoffs, considering who our starters are.

-I like assistant coaches if they have specific roles. *And I've been pretty clear about Robinson's role for me, I think.*

-Good luck to you too

 

[BraveCanadian]

-Why doesn't Shane Doan belong on a third line? *He's better offensively than Tocchet, quite good defensively, and known as a power forward (though not as powerful as Rick). *His Team Canada scouting report calls him "a grinder with hands."

You've convinced me about Doan.. I always liked him as a hockey player because he is one of the salt of the earth types but he is even better than I had thought.

 

[Leaf Lander]

the only major problem with doan is that he has never won a cup

 

[Reds4Life]

the only major problem with doan is that he has never won a cup

Why is that a problem? Doan was always solid in the playoffs.
Winning the Stanley Cup is a team accomplishment.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Doan's "problem" is 100% loyalty to a weak organization. I'm obviously q big fan of the Raging Doaner, but you aren't going to be a Cup contender with him as your top gun.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Why is that a problem? Doan was always solid in the playoffs.
Winning the Stanley Cup is a team accomplishment.

Nope, clutch players find a way to win.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Summary of arguments:

1. Swamp Devils are playing a left wing lock system and each line features a left wing who is a good two-way player. This makes forward matchups less important.

2. Maurice Richard is statistically the best playoff goalscorer of the pre-expansion era and will be deadly in the counterattack, especially next to the speedy two-way force that is his brother Henri.

3. Handzus and Henri Richard will take most defensive zone draws. Maurice will sometimes be double shifted.

4. Swamp Devils have a strong and versatile shut down first pairing, which will be used against whichever of Malone or Gilmour is hotter.

5. Terry Sawchuk is a major asset in goal, but Charlie Gardiner is great too. For half a decade, Gardiner was the greatest goalie in the world, and some observers thought he was the best ever (as of the early 30s). Definite advantage in goal for Garnish as Sawchuk is fairly elite, but Gardiner is definitely an above average goaltender in a 40 team draft.

 

[jkrx]

Having an extra defensive player at the blueline helps out everyone on that end of the ice, so of course it helps out Pratt. Nevertheless, when Pratt gets himself out of position, the Devils will have one defenseman and one forward back. Forwards in the left wing lock are functional at the blueline because their lanes are narrow - only one third of the ice. Forwards skating backwards trying to cover half of the ice are generally toast; it's simply not a skill that forwards have, outside of the old hook-checkers. Backchecking and playing with your back to your own goal are totally different skills.

The left wing lock system requires a lot of discipline to execute because the defensive effectiveness of the forward depends on the defensemen remaining in their lanes. This is precisely the problem that Scotty Bowman had with Paul Coffey in Detroit; the entire system disintegrated when Coffey left his lane. The lock does not allow your defensemen to do much of any attacking at even strength besides head-manning the puck. It fit the post-Coffey Red Wings system quite well because their best offensive defenseman, Lidstrom, was a great transition passer, but not really a puck carrier.

In the case of New Jersey, though the top pairing is well-tailored for such a strategy, I have my doubts about how well Boyle and Pratt fit into a locking system.

To emphasize on the Coffey problem in Detroit and a major problem in any left wing lock system you can watch this.

 

[BraveCanadian]

To emphasize on the Coffey problem in Detroit and a major problem in any left wing lock system you can watch this.

Huh? I know you have a hate on for Coffey as a Red Wing but what did he do here that has anything to do with a left wing lock?

I see Coffey with position on the guy coming down his side and Lidstrom coming across and getting beaten, which Coffey attempts to cover by skating to the corner in chase.. the puck going to the point before Coffey got there and a shot while Osgood is caught?

 

[jkrx]

Huh? I know you have a hate on for Coffey as a Red Wing but what did he do here that has anything to do with a left wing lock?

I see Coffey with position on the guy coming down his side and Lidstrom coming across and getting beaten, which Coffey attempts to cover by skating to the corner in chase.. the puck going to the point before Coffey got there and a shot while Osgood is caught?

Coffey leaves his lane. That was basically the point. Terrible defensive play by Coffey.

 

[Sturminator]

Coffey leaves his lane. That was basically the point. Terrible defensive play by Coffey.

Ehh...the two biggest mistakes on the play are made by Lidstrom and Osgood. The only thing Coffey could have done better would have been to stand in the goalmouth and try to block the slapper he didn't know was coming, but as the shot hit the inside of the right post, it's unlikely any defenseman would have gotten to it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Any system will break down if a player gets caught up ice

Defenseman caught up ice in a standard system means a forward has to cover for him or risk and odd-man rush. It's obviously never ideal having a defenseman caught up ice, regardless of the system. Every system depends on the execution of the players, as we all know.

I do like that my left defensemen (the men responsible for the middle lane and making a decision as to when to cheat to a certain side) are positionally sound.

 

[Sturminator]

Any system will break down if a player gets caught up ice.

The lock moreso than most. The point here is that forwards (with a few exceptions) are actually less effective at defending a wide lane with their back to the goal than they are at simply backchecking.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The lock moreso than most. The point here is that forwards (with a few exceptions) are actually less effective at defending a wide lane with their back to the goal than they are at simply backchecking.

In "normal" NHL systems that I have seen (basically dead puck era and on), a forward generally rotates back to play defense if a defenseman is pinching. Then if play goes the other way, you still have a defenseman and forward back just like a LWL where one defensrman is caught, right?

I guess the difference is that in a 1-2-2 the middle guys are in better position to backcheck than the forwards in a LWL which is basically a 2-3.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Ehh...the two biggest mistakes on the play are made by Lidstrom and Osgood. The only thing Coffey could have done better would have been to stand in the goalmouth and try to block the slapper he didn't know was coming, but as the shot hit the inside of the right post, it's unlikely any defenseman would have gotten to it.

Yeah, you nailed it. Blaming that one on Coffey is a pretty big stretch.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is that video from the 94 first round when Lidstrom was still quite green?

 

[Sturminator]

Is that video from the 94 first round when Lidstrom was still quite green?

Yep...that's 94. Good times.

 

[jkrx]

Ehh...the two biggest mistakes on the play are made by Lidstrom and Osgood. The only thing Coffey could have done better would have been to stand in the goalmouth and try to block the slapper he didn't know was coming, but as the shot hit the inside of the right post, it's unlikely any defenseman would have gotten to it.

Osgood? Why should you blame him? Coffey is the one out of position. Lidström gets beat and Osgood goes to retrieve the puck. Coffey has two options return to his position to cover Cronin(?) or try to go on the offense. He goes for offense, sharks scores. Ofcourse the blame should also be put on the forward along the boards who was unable to help get the puck out but Coffey is the one out of position.

 

[Sturminator]

Osgood? Why should you blame him?

Because he made a terrible, terrible pass up the boards with opposing forwards closing in on exactly the area of the ice to which he was moving the puck. A goalie should never make that pass. What you're saying is that Coffey should have stayed in his lane and marked a forward who wasn't involved in the goal. Perhaps he should have, but if Coffey does that, the Sharks still score.

And I have no idea which forward along the boards you are talking about. Osgood passed the puck directly to an oncoming Sharks forward. It was a hideous play by the goalie. As far as I can tell, no Detroit forward ever got a chance to clear it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Because he made a terrible, terrible pass up the boards with opposing forwards closing in on exactly the area of the ice to which he was moving the puck. A goalie should never make that pass. What you're saying is that Coffey should have stayed in his lane and marked a forward who wasn't involved in the goal. Perhaps he should have, but if Coffey does that, the Sharks still score.

And I have no idea which forward along the boards you are talking about. Osgood passed the puck directly to an oncoming Sharks forward. It was a hideous play by the goalie. As far as I can tell, no Detroit forward ever got a chance to clear it.

He hates Coffey in Detroit is pretty much the point.

 

[seventieslord]

New Jersey defeats Garnish in 5 games.

3 stars:

Maurice Richard
Sawchuk
Henri Richard

also a factor: Gilmour.

 

[DaveG]

Good series TDMM. Honestly I was figuring it would come down to our two teams in the division finals rather then this round, but all along you were the team we thought would be our biggest challenge. There was some good discussion in this series, hopefully changing some peoples perceptions of certain players for future ATDs. Good luck from here out.