ATD2011 Rene Lecavalier Semi: (2) Inglewood Jacks vs. (3) Detroit Red Wings

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by Dreakmur, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    [​IMG]

    Head Coach: Pat Burns

    Esa Tikkanen - Alex Delvecchio (A) - Jack Darragh
    Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Tim Kerr
    Lynn Patrick - Kent Nilsson - Harry Hyland
    Reggie Fleming - John Madden - Ron Sutter

    Bill Gadsby - Sylvio Mantha (C)
    Nikolai Sologubov (A) - Glen Harmon
    Robyn Regehr - Ivan Tregubov

    Jacques Plante
    Marty Turco

    Spares: RW Real Cloutier, LW/RW Tony Granato, C/LW Robert Lang, D Pavel Kubina

    PP1: Lester Patrick - Kent Nilsson - Tim Kerr - Alex Delvecchio - Bill Gadsby
    PP2: Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Harry Hyland - Sylvio Mantha - Nikolai Sologubov

    PK1: Esa Tikkanen - John Madden - Bill Gadsby - Sylvio Mantha
    PK2: Reg Fleming - Ron Sutter - Robyn Regehr - Glen Harmon
    Additional PKers: Alex Delvecchio, Jack Darragh

    VS.

    Detroit Red Wings

    Coach: Tommy Ivan
    Assistant (PP, forwards): Todd McLellan

    F. Mahovlich - Barry - Larmer
    Gagne - Goyette - Nedomanský
    J. Wilson - Hlinka - Bauer
    Pandolfo - Conroy - Lever
    Zábrodský, Preston

    Fetisov - Murphy
    Stapleton - G. McNamara
    T. Jonsson - Rochefort
    K. Jönsson

    Rayner
    Moog

    Powerplay:
    PP1: Barry - Nedomanský - Mahovlich
    Fetisov - Murphy
    PP2: Goyette - Hlinka - Larmer
    Stapleton - Jonsson

    Penalty Kill:
    PK1: Pandolfo - Conroy
    Fetisov - Rochefort
    PK2: Lever - Larmer
    Stapleton - McNamara
    PK3: Mahovlich - Goyette
    Fetisov - Murphy
     
  2. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    This means war!

    Good luck guys.
     
  3. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    In the spirit of election season:

    Let it be known that Red Wings GM DoMack has never publicly denied eating babies.
     
  4. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    I guess to start things off, I'll just say that Plante vs. Rayner is the single biggest mismatch in this series. Perhaps the greatest goaltender of all time vs. one who is usually a backup in a 30-team draft. Not that Rayner sucked, but he's certainly bottom-tier even in a 40-teamer. For me, this is the one area in this series that is clearly and inarguably a massive advantage for one team over the other.

    I think we both have pretty solid teams top to bottom, so best of luck to you sir. I'll try to limit my unfounded character assassinations to one or two per day. For instance, did you guys know that DoMakc spent much of the 90's colluding with Saddam Hussein? I mean, what else is this guy hiding, right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  5. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I had the exact same first round argument two drafts ago.
     
  6. DoMakc

    DoMakc Registered User

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    I can confirm this.

    Well, the biggest "mismatch" (I don't think this word is used correct, since Rayner and Plante don't go head to head) is Stapleton vs. Sologubov as third defenceman (and you can't say that i'm saying that sologubov sucks as third D only because of my canadian bias :p:). You clearly has advantage in net, but it only means if you can use it, since you don't have many guys on your roster that are going to score goals. Your first line is defence first, your second line contains too many sedins as for playoffs, and after the regular season Burns already hates Kenta.

    So you are implying that i'm Satan right?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    What? We have three legit scoring lines and an excellent puck-moving back end.

    Unless we forget to put Plante in net, we shouldn't have a problem using our advantage there. Do you actually believe that the difference between #3 defensemen (Stapleton and Harmon) is bigger than the difference between a man many consider to be the best goalie ever and Chuck Rayner? I'm a big fan of both Stapleton and Harmon (had 'em both last draft), and Stapleton is the better player, but clearly not by that degree.

    While it's on my mind: A tactical advantage we have is an elite two-way line that can score and play defense, comprised of the best centre, best defensive forward, and best clutch scorer in this series. Unlike most shut-down lines, this one can play big minutes because it has serious offensive ability as well. We have home ice advantage and a great line-matching coach. I think our top line is an excellent match against yours, especially with Tikkanen's ability to play and shadow any of the three forward positions in famously infuriating fashion. Against a winger who was twice hospitalized for hypertension in his career, I think Tikkanen can be extremely effective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  8. vecens24

    vecens24 Registered User

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    Personally I think it's amazing how underrated Sologubov gets underrated in these parts....that's just me though. Sologubov is a very, very good offensive defenseman to be a 3. The biggest argument is strength of competition but he was quite dominant against competition if you look at his records. However Harmon is our three so I don't think it matters as far as the argument you made with Stapleton (obviously I'm not making the argument either Solo or Harmon is better).
     
  9. DoMakc

    DoMakc Registered User

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    You have a strong puck-moving back end (which still isn't as good as Red Wings' one), but I disagree about legit scoring lines. You first line is one of the worst first lines in this draft in terms of offence, it lacks a legit goalscorer. The main cog of this line was his whole career an outstanding complimentary player, but i think it's too much to ask from him to carry the offence and play shutdown part, considering that his linemates aren't first line players offencively. Sedins are low-end second liners, especially in playoffs. Kenta Nilsson is known for his lack of playoffs success, considering how little he cared abot his fitness, and how bad of fit is he on Pat Burns' team, i doubt that he can have much impact. your PP (which features Lynn and not Lester Patrick, but it was Dreakmur's mistake) is suffering from the lack of offencive talent too.

    Firstly, i think you trying to sell Rayner too short - he was able to put his mediocre team (thei seconds best scorer was Kaleta :laugh:), on his shoulder and carry it to the 7th game of the Stanley Cup's finals. he was even awarded retrospectively with Conn Smythe by the HHOF, which makes its semi-official. He was MVP and 3 time post season allstar, getting the nod over such goalies as Brimsek, Broda and Lumley. Given his record, he absolutely has the ability to steal a game or two, but again, I don't think it will be needed. And he plays behind a stronger corp of defencemen.
    Which brings us to another point, I simply don't like your second pairing. Despite what vecens says, i think Sologubov actually is overrated. he has no business to be drafted at 265, i know he had some good stats, but against who? This land only discovered hockey in the 40ies, first league season was 1947. I can imagine there weren't a lot of quality teams. We can better judge it by international competitions - Sologubov took part in 7 world championships, winning it only once. Soviet team finished 5 times behind Team Canada, which was formed by amateurs. If they couldn't compete with them, how he is supposed to handle the NHL players - best players of that time, nevermind the best players of all time. i think Sologubov is clearly the case, where among the blind the one-eyed is king. Another point is, i don't like how your second pairing is constucted - they both are offecive-minded defenceman, especially Sologubov was described as risk taker, he used to play with a partner, who was more of stay-at-home-D.


    You know, the reason Mahovlich had his depressions, was the lack of support from his coach and the fanbase. He'll get more the enough support here in Detroit. One of the main reasons i drafted Ivan was Mahovlich. i think Ivan is the coach who can get the most out of him.
    Tikkanen is not in position to cause any off ice problems to Frank. it's not like he never played against a pest in his career.
     
  10. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    How often is Tik going to be going against Mahovlich when they are both LWs?
     
  11. BraveCanadian

    BraveCanadian Registered User

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    If he is being used as a shadow then it will be up to the other players playing with him to adjust their positioning accordingly.

    He was used as a shadow quite a fair bit for real
     
  12. jkrx

    jkrx Registered User

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    This is very intresting. Both teams feature some of my all-time favorites. Clearly there is an advantage in goal for Inglewood but I think Ivan is the better coach. Inglewood has great depth on defense and a pretty good to great all around offense while the wings at first look seem to have a better shutdown forward line-up.

    Hope you will argue this to the end because I am very divided in this match up.
     
  13. overpass

    overpass Registered User

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    Just to give one example, Tikkanen shadowed Forsberg, a centre, in the 1996 first round.
     
  14. vecens24

    vecens24 Registered User

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    I'm going to thank you for your kind comments on our team, but I think we actually have the better shutdown forward group. Our entire first line is three good two-way players, culminating in Tikkanen and his three Selke runners up. He is one of the best pests to ever play, but even beyond being a pest he's a great defensive player. Darragh was one of if not the major defensive conscience on the Ottawa Senators prior to Frank Nighbor getting there from 1910-1915. Delvecchio was also known as an excellent defender in his day.

    On our second line, neither Sedin is bad defensively. Both have received Selke votes in the past, with Daniel's being more consistent. They're capable of at least holding their own. Kerr is obviously sub standard defensively.

    Our third line is not a good defensive third line by any stretch. I've never seen anything about Hyland's defensive game, Nilsson is obviously not effective defensively, and I've never seen anything about Patrick either.

    However, our 4th line is an extremely effective checking defensive shutdown line as well. Madden's credentials are known and he's also a very good faceoff man. Reggie Fleming, beyond his reputation as a tough guy, is actually a really good defensive forward and used to play defense every once in a while for them. Sutter adds some grit to that line along with being solid defensively, and also is another guy to take faceoffs.

    As far as his team, Larmer is the best defensive forward on his first line. Mahovlich is defensively responsible at least (however I wouldn't necessarily call him a plus because he will be certainly more concentrated on his offensive game), but I've never seen anything written about Barry.

    Goyette is obviously a good defensive presence. Gagne is in that same class of the Sedins defensively. I've never seen much about Nedomansky's defensive skill so I'm assuming he's probably not much of a plus to speak of.

    Bauer as far as I know isn't much of a defensive presence. Dumart was the one used extensively as the defensive forward on the Kraut line. Hlinka I haven't seen anything of defensively yet either in my searches, but I thought I had seen some things before. Wilson I feel pretty confident was a solid two-way player.

    Pandolfo is a decent defensive presence, but I have to admit I think he was partially made by my Madden. They played extensively together and Madden was certainly the better of the two. Conroy was certainly solid with two Selke noms, and Lever was a good two-way guy who particularly was good at killing PKs.


    Overall, I think we certainly have the better high end talent defensively which will help us shut down his better forwards. Between Madden and Tikkanen we feel we certainly have the two best defensive forwards in this series. This to go along with Fleming, Sutter, Delvecchio, and Darragh being legitimate pluses defensively compared to his Conroy, Goyette, Pandolfo being his top three. We think our forwards are an advantage for us defensively.
     
  15. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Pandolfo was more than a "decent" defensive presence. He was just as good as Madden defensively,, but lacked Madden's big shot and ability to take face-offs. If Pando wasn't an excellent defensive player, he'd be useless since his offense was so bad. Madden was a regular 20 goal scorer and SHG threat, at least, so he was better overall, but I think face-offs were his only defensive edge over Pando.
     
  16. vecens24

    vecens24 Registered User

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    I didn't mean to say that he was just decent. He's defitniely a plus defensively so I'm sorry if I made that more exaggerated than it really is. He's a Selke finalist (even runner up I believe?) without any offense so he's a defintie defensive player and hes a good PKer. I just don't think he's as good as Madden.
     
  17. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Wings shadowing centers happens all the time. Bob Gainey probably shadowed as many centers as he did right wings in his career. For a wing to shadow the opposite wing, however, basically involves switching positions on the line. It can be done, but the consequences for line chemistry need to be honestly taken into account.
     
  18. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Sorry for disappearing guys, I had some stuff come up out of town, and then I worked the election all day when I got back...and then I spent most of yesterday sleeping.

    Still don't have time to comment on everything, but I'll comment on this:

    Tikkanen played all 3 forward positions in his career, so that's not an issue if Burns goes with the Tik-Mahovlich matchup. Like Gainey, he was often used to nullify players at positions other than RW. Most notably in the 1990 finals, where he absolutely owned Craig Janney to the tune of 0 points through 5 games (Janney had scored 22 points in 13 games prior to that). Consequently, Cam Neely was held without a goal in that series as well, despite scoring 12 in the first 16 playoff games that year. Tikkanen was also known to get under Wayne Gretzky's skin like perhaps no other player he ever faced. In short, Esa Tikkanen is among the very best shadows of all time. On the other side Darragh is a guy who played both wing and rover, and is noted as one of the first guys to play on his "off wing". I think he's certainly versatile enough to play on the left side if need be.

    Our forward depth also gives us the option of making a great pure checking line with Tikkanen - Madden - Sutter, and moving Patrick/Hyland onto the top unit when more offense is needed. Basically, I think our forward units give Burns a lot of options to roll with. And having special teams dynamos like Kerr, Nilsson, and Madden means that we have specialists who can be difference makers even if their even strength minutes are being limited.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  19. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Just throwing this interesting stat out there, because I think Glen Harmon is often overlooked. This is one of my favourites, and as a multi-time Harmon owner, I like pimping his abilities.

    Glen Harmon was a second team allstar in 1945. This, of course, was perhaps the worst of the War Years. Interestingly though, I think it gives a good idea of his defensive abilities. In an era where scoring was through the roof and defensemen were putting up points at record pace, Glen Harmon made the second team with just 13 points. That put him in a tie for 14th/15th in the league (out of the 24 NHL defensemen who played 30 games), and in a tie for 3rd/4th among defensemen on his own team.

    Of the 13 defenders who finished ahead of him in scoring, 10 of them were at least notable in the sense that they have been taken in this draft:

    Flash Hollet
    Babe Pratt
    Butch Bouchard
    Earl Seibert
    Jack Crawford
    Dit Clapper
    Pat Egan
    Bill Quackenbush
    Ott Heller
    Reg Hamilton

    All but Hamilton had 50+% more points than Harmon's 13.

    If he had put up some outlandish numbers, it would be one thing. But by all appearances, Glen Harmon made the 1945 second allstar team entirely on the strength of his defensive play, and beat out some pretty notable names who outscored him by a ton. You go, Glen.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  20. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Inglewood defeats Detroit in 6 games.

    3 stars:

    Plante
    Fetisov
    Mahovlich

    also a factor: Delvecchio, Gadsby
     
  21. vecens24

    vecens24 Registered User

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    Proud to have won my first ATD playoff series.
     
  22. Derick*

    Derick* Guest

    Congrats Vecens.
     
  23. DoMakc

    DoMakc Registered User

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    Conspiracy :sarcasm:

    Congrats vecens and arrbez. It's nice to see that Sedins are doing better in the ATD playoffs than NHL.
     

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