ATD2011 Red Fisher Semi: McGuire's Monsters vs. Philadelphia Firebirds

[Dreakmur]

At even strength, calling Lepine and Laprade equal is being extremely generous to Laprade. Lepine is better defensively at even strength. On the PK, I'll give a slight edge to Laprade because of quotes that likely exist because he was a more recent player.

Both Lepine and Laprade were considered among the best defensive forwards of their time. There's nothing that suggests one is better than the other at even strength. Based on the quotes Laprade is a better PKer and a better face-off man.

Kurri is a better shorthanded threat than Mahovlich. He was 3 times voted the best defensive RW in the NHL, 2nd twice, and 3rd once. Mahovlich doesn't have the benefit of Selke votes, but I seriously doubt if he was ever top 3 defensively at his position for 6 years. You definitely don't have the 2 best PK forwards.

Kurri was a better shorthanded threat that Mahovlich, but that doesn't make him a better PKer.

 

[Dreakmur]

Just saw this, I think Harris brings more physicality than Stanfield. He was renowned for his hitting and being one of the toughest guys in the league. Stanfield brings some phsyicality, but not that much.

Harris was not "renowned" for either of those things. He was called tough in one newspaper aricle, and his hitting was mantioned in one other. That's not much evidence.

There is plenty of evidence for Stanfield's physical play.

I disagree. Hodge's stats are inflated, yes, but we don't know by how much. I definitely don't think that the era difference is made up by that fact. What makes Marshall pretty good defensively? He was called a "jack of all trades", and a fine all around player. Nothing specific there, and the fine all around player comment very likely came from his ability to play wing, center, and defense considering that part is very next in the quote. I still think Hodge is a better player than Marshall, and that the edge in 2nd lines goes to Philadelphia.

Hodge's stats are inflated. Odds are they are inflated quite a bit - being with Esposito and Orr really boosts those stats.

Marshall being called a good all-around player is much better than Hodge's lazy indifference.

Offense is close. Marshall brings more physical play and better defense. He's definately the better player.

 

[Dreakmur]

Here is why you should vote for McQuire's Monsters:
-Tretiak is a stronger goalie. We'll have a definate edge in net.

-Offensive punch from the blueline. The Monsters have a very substantial edge here. All 6 guys can produce, and there are some real top-end offensive guys in Bourque, Egan, and Stuart.

-Physical play. The Monsters will be able to control the boards and slot area. We'll be able to get most of the contested pucks. Also, we'll definately be able to push around the Firebirds, and hopefully wear them down. Beliveau doesn't have John Ferguson to keep people off his back here.....

-Better PP. With a huge advantage in PP point men, the Monsters will easily be able to move up ice, gain the zone, and take advantage of excellent shots from the point. Ray Bourque and Andy Bathgate are the two best PP players in the series.

-Better PK. With the two best PK fowards and the best PK defenseman, the Monsters have the edge in killing penalties. Most teams would have better depth PKers than us, but the Firebirds actually don't.

-Ray Bourque is the best player in the series, and he'll be on the ice almost half the game. The Firebirds' best player, Jean Beliveau, will be on the ice for quite bit less than that.


Thanks for the very reasonable and fair debate, Billy. You built a real nice team, which I would not be disappointed to lose too. I think the Mosters are a better team, but it's real close either way.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Beliveau has Duff by his side, and Brian Sutter will take on anyone that tries to push around Beliveau or Kurri. Jean was also a very strong player and if you adjust his size I think he would be 6'5 or 6'6. He is not easily pushed around.

 

[seventieslord]

I would honestly be much more confident in Beliveau's ability to take care of himself, than I would be about Duff's ability to protect him.

Duff was gritty and loaded with heart, but he was a real small guy. Not what I'd call a protector or policeman.

 

[Dreakmur]

Beliveau has Duff by his side, and Brian Sutter will take on anyone that tries to push around Beliveau or Kurri. Jean was also a very strong player and if you adjust his size I think he would be 6'5 or 6'6. He is not easily pushed around.

Agreed that Beliveau is not an easy guy to push around, but the Monsters have some of the meanest and nastiest guys in the draft. We've got toughness in key positions - Alf Smith on the first line, Ted Green and Pat Egan on the first and second peiring. Brian Sutter and Rod Langway don't match those guys.

Toughness is definately a mismatch in this series. How much that matters will be up to the voters.

I would honestly be much more confident in Beliveau's ability to take care of himself, than I would be about Duff's ability to protect him.

Duff was gritty and loaded with heart, but he was a real small guy. Not what I'd call a protector or policeman.

Outside of Gordie Howe, how many elite tough guys are good enough to play 1st line? Clark Gillies and Alf Smith are the only guys I can think of.

 

[seventieslord]

If by "good enough" you mean "good enough offensively" and you include Gillies and Alf Smith, then you could really go down as far as Rick Tocchet, Kevin Stevens, and even Punch Broadbent & Wayne Cashman.

The best ones? Ted Lindsay for sure. Others would be Messier, Lalonde, Cook, Mikhailov, Stewart, Hooley Smith, Shanahan, Neely, Lindros, Noble... that's about it.

We may have semantical differences about a few of the above, but those are about the only guys you'd call "really tough" who can play on top lines... any any way you slice it, it's a pretty short list.

 

[Dreakmur]

If by "good enough" you mean "good enough offensively" and you include Gillies and Alf Smith, then you could really go down as far as Rick Tocchet, Kevin Stevens, and even Punch Broadbent & Wayne Cashman.

The best ones? Ted Lindsay for sure. Others would be Messier, Lalonde, Cook, Mikhailov, Stewart, Hooley Smith, Shanahan, Neely, Lindros, Noble... that's about it.

We may have semantical differences about a few of the above, but those are about the only guys you'd call "really tough" who can play on top lines... any any way you slice it, it's a pretty short list.

I'd cut at least half the guys off your list, but yeah....

 

[Velociraptor]

McGuire's Monsters DEFEAT Philadelphia Firebirds in 6 games.

3 STARS:
1. Ray Bourque, MCG
2. Jean Beliveau, PHI
3. Vladislav Tretiak, MCG

HM's: Kurri, Dunderdale, Holocek

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Can't say I agree, but good series Dreak. You built a strong team and we were very evenly matched.

Even though I lost, I'm happy with my ATD this year. From being last in my division last year to winning my division this year and making the final 8, I think I learned a lot. Can't wait for the next ATD and the other minor league drafts.

 

[Velociraptor]

Can't say I agree, but good series Dreak. You built a strong team and we were very evenly matched.

Even though I lost, I'm happy with my ATD this year. From being last in my division last year to winning my division this year and making the final 8, I think I learned a lot. Can't wait for the next ATD and the other minor league drafts.

You had a fantastic run Billy, you built a contending team that I had no problem losing to, unfortunately you were matched with a team who played just as good of a two-way style as your team did. I think it came down to defense and that's where Dreak had the advantage.