seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Billy, you are doing some real big overselling here.
Wow. That's some major disrespect for being the NHL's goal leader. And some extremely selective memory regarding Harris' linemate - namely, the best offensive player hockey had seen up to that point (who outscored Harris by some of the widest margins seen in that time)
You have to be smart enough to know that top-10s in the PCHA era are not like top-10s in the post-euro NHL era. at the very least those "finishes" need to be doubled. At the very least.
"both bring physicality as well"? Harris' physicality is backed up by decent PIM totals and a few very short and non-descriptive quotes, plus he had a "feud" with a player in the minors... sure, that's something, I guess. We all saw Tkachuk's career. At his peak, the guy was a wrecking ball out there. A legitimate power forward, and in some people's eyes, the best in the game.
He played four seasons:
- 2nd (68% of leader)
- 7th (43% of leader) - but on pace for 2nd/87%, it's not his fault Ottawa got only 4 games
- 1st (tied, 100% of leader obviously) - in the weaker FAHL
- 3rd (82% of leader)
How much better is Hawerchuk, you ask? Considering he played as long as he did and had only three seasons with less than a PPG average.... quite a lot better. Hawerchuk is among the finest 2nd line centers in this draft.
You don't get to play 4 seasons and get a scoring title in a second rate league, and suddenly get to hang with a guy like Hawerchuk.
Sure, McGee was a star in the playoffs.... against who? So much of his legacy is based on that series against Dawson City. As great a story as it made, they were a joke for competition. And it's universally accepted that Hawerchuk actually played very well in the playoffs with regularity.
OK, I am not a fan of Boucher on a 2nd line whatsoever, and Hodge is better, but you're still getting it all wrong here. In 1923 and 1924 he was a legitimate star. Check it out, he was leading Montreal in points and finishing high in the league standings. In 1925 he managed 30 points while new star Morenz had 39, still a good year by any standard. It's after that, that he saw a big dropoff. And sure, he was a shotgun rider for Joliat and Morenz but he never really did anything with them anyway, that you would want to dismiss as being their doing. He was the catalyst for his own best seasons.
I don't get the whole "linemates considered" part, either. Boucher had Morenz and Joliat, after he was done being a star, yes. Hodge got to play on the PP with Orr (best per-game player ever), Espo (as good offensively as Morenz) and Bucyk (= Joliat). He had the better situation, not the worse one. Like I said, I think he's better. I really respect his puckwinning abilities; they are important. But I didn't grab Cashman to brag about his scoring finishes and you shouldn't be concerned with Hodge's either.
(also just wanted to point out, though it does not relate to this series, Hodge likely was a bit better than Cashman offensively, but it wasn't by as much as the raw totals would appear to show. From 1970 to 1975, he averaged 0.78 ESPPG; Cashman averaged 0.74. It was the 118 to 44 gap in PP points that really made the difference. Bucyk was the main LW on that PP so Cashman wasn't used much, while Hodge took the right side and the lucrative totals that went with it)
For Harris, I'll reference what LF posted in one of his old bios for Harris, and there's a link to a study that seventies did of old PCHA players.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31600448&postcount=912
Take from that what you will. Now, Tkachuk was five times in the top ten in goals in the NHL; 1, 6, 7, 7, 10. He was never a top 10 in assists or points. He's quite different than Harris, who was chiefly a playmaker, and not a goal scorer, twice leading the PCHA in assists, and doing that again in the playoffs. According to the first study, that puts him at 5 top 10s overall, equal to the 5 top 10s in goals Tkachuk had. Both bring physicality to the table as well. ....... I'd say they are very close to even.
Wow. That's some major disrespect for being the NHL's goal leader. And some extremely selective memory regarding Harris' linemate - namely, the best offensive player hockey had seen up to that point (who outscored Harris by some of the widest margins seen in that time)
You have to be smart enough to know that top-10s in the PCHA era are not like top-10s in the post-euro NHL era. at the very least those "finishes" need to be doubled. At the very least.
"both bring physicality as well"? Harris' physicality is backed up by decent PIM totals and a few very short and non-descriptive quotes, plus he had a "feud" with a player in the minors... sure, that's something, I guess. We all saw Tkachuk's career. At his peak, the guy was a wrecking ball out there. A legitimate power forward, and in some people's eyes, the best in the game.
Moving on to Frank McGee and Dale Hawerchuk. Again, I'll post what statistical comparisons I have found in regards to McGee, and I'll leave them up for interpretation. I don't know what his exact finishes were, I'm sure they exist but I don't have the knowledge or possibly resources to access them.
I believe McGee also has 2 Retro Hart Trophies, I thought I saw that somewhere, but I'm not sure. How to compare these two? It's impossible to quantify the difference if you ask me. In the interest of the debate, I'll concede that Hawerchuk is a better offensive player. How much better? Good question. In terms of toughness, I might give a slight edge to McGee because he was known to be scrappy. In terms of skating, maybe a slight advantage to McGee as well, but not much. Defensively, I'd say they are about even, both being slightly above average. In the playoffs, McGee was a known star whereas Hawerchuk's playoff resume is pretty underwhelming for a player of his stature, but he isn't to blame because he wasn't on the greatest teams and was stuck in the shadow of the Oilers.
He played four seasons:
- 2nd (68% of leader)
- 7th (43% of leader) - but on pace for 2nd/87%, it's not his fault Ottawa got only 4 games
- 1st (tied, 100% of leader obviously) - in the weaker FAHL
- 3rd (82% of leader)
How much better is Hawerchuk, you ask? Considering he played as long as he did and had only three seasons with less than a PPG average.... quite a lot better. Hawerchuk is among the finest 2nd line centers in this draft.
You don't get to play 4 seasons and get a scoring title in a second rate league, and suddenly get to hang with a guy like Hawerchuk.
Sure, McGee was a star in the playoffs.... against who? So much of his legacy is based on that series against Dawson City. As great a story as it made, they were a joke for competition. And it's universally accepted that Hawerchuk actually played very well in the playoffs with regularity.
That brings us to Ken Hodge and Billy Boucher. Both were members of famous lines, with Hodge being on a line with Esposito and Cashman, and Boucher with Morenz and Joliat. When comparing them, one thing I'd note is that Hodge was the second best player offensively on his line, whereas Boucher was a distant 3rd on his line. Both benefited from their linemates, but that is much more true of Boucher than Hodge. Here is a comparison of their finishes(this comparison massively favors Boucher):
Goals
Hodge-4, 4, 4, 16
Boucher-2, 3, 8, 9
Assists
Hodge-4, 8, 12, 24
Boucher-3, 3, 11, 12, 21
Points
Hodge-3, 4, 5, 20
Boucher-3, 3, 7, 12, 22
That might suggest Boucher is better, but taking into account era and linemates, Hodge is definitely the better offensive player. Some of those finishes are single digit assists, and are quite misleading. Hodge is definitely a better offensive player. Boucher is probably a little better defensively, and physically they are probably about even. In the playoffs, Hodge is easily better. Boucher has 3 career goals in 14 playoff games, whereas Hodge once led the playoffs in goals, and six times was in the top 8 in playoff points. Overall, Hodge is the better player.
OK, I am not a fan of Boucher on a 2nd line whatsoever, and Hodge is better, but you're still getting it all wrong here. In 1923 and 1924 he was a legitimate star. Check it out, he was leading Montreal in points and finishing high in the league standings. In 1925 he managed 30 points while new star Morenz had 39, still a good year by any standard. It's after that, that he saw a big dropoff. And sure, he was a shotgun rider for Joliat and Morenz but he never really did anything with them anyway, that you would want to dismiss as being their doing. He was the catalyst for his own best seasons.
I don't get the whole "linemates considered" part, either. Boucher had Morenz and Joliat, after he was done being a star, yes. Hodge got to play on the PP with Orr (best per-game player ever), Espo (as good offensively as Morenz) and Bucyk (= Joliat). He had the better situation, not the worse one. Like I said, I think he's better. I really respect his puckwinning abilities; they are important. But I didn't grab Cashman to brag about his scoring finishes and you shouldn't be concerned with Hodge's either.
(also just wanted to point out, though it does not relate to this series, Hodge likely was a bit better than Cashman offensively, but it wasn't by as much as the raw totals would appear to show. From 1970 to 1975, he averaged 0.78 ESPPG; Cashman averaged 0.74. It was the 118 to 44 gap in PP points that really made the difference. Bucyk was the main LW on that PP so Cashman wasn't used much, while Hodge took the right side and the lucrative totals that went with it)