ATD2011 Bob Cole Semi: (1) Halifax Mooseheads vs. (5) Montreal AAA

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by Dreakmur, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    Halifax Mooseheads
    [​IMG]

    Coach: Ken Hitchcock

    Roster
    Toe Blake (C)-Syd Howe-Ace Bailey
    Gaye Stewart-Doug Weight-Eddie Oatman (A)
    Jack Walker-Mike Ricci-Bobby Rousseau
    Ed Sandford-Vincent Lecavalier-Pit Martin

    Brad Park-Bill White
    Kevin Lowe (A)-James Patrick
    Gord Fraser-Bob Dailey

    Martin Brodeur
    Don Edwards

    Spares:
    Syl Apps Jr., C
    Marian Gaborik, W
    Lee Fogolin Jr., D
    Jimmy Roberts, RW/D

    1st PP Unit
    Blake-Howe-Bailey
    Rousseau-Park

    2nd PP Unit
    Stewart-Lecavalier-Oatman
    Weight-Patrick

    PK Forwards
    Martin-Walker
    Ricci-Rousseau
    Howe-Bailey

    PK Defensemen
    Lowe-White
    Park-Dailey/Fraser

    Forward Minutes

    Defensemen minutes

    VS.

    Montreal AAA

    Head Coach : Vladimir Yurzinov
    Ass / Goalie coach : Warren Strelow

    Aurel Joliat - Stan Mikita - Didier Pitre
    Jiri Holik - Marty Walsh - Reggie Leach
    Marty Pavelich -Ralph Backstrom - Blair Russel
    Georges Mantha - Andy Blair - Joe Lamb
    Josef Malecek - Tony Amonte

    Mark Howe - Ken Reardon
    Lionel Hitchman - Dickie Boon
    Allan Cameron - Clem Loughlin
    Udo Kiessling

    Ron Hextall
    Chico Resch

    Powerplay
    Joliat - Mikita - Leach - Howe - Loughlin
    Holik - Walsh - Pitre - Reardon - Boon

    Penalty Kill
    Pavelich - Backstrom - Hitchman - Cameron
    Mantha - Russell - Boon - Reardon
    Pitre - Mikita - Hitchman - Howe/Cameron
    Joliat - Blair/Lamb/Backstrom - Boon - Reardon/Howe​
     
  2. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    What you know about ATD?!
     
  3. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Jack Walker will slide in to the middle, Ricci-Walker-Rousseau will be the primary match up with Park-White backing them against the Mikita line. I like Walker on Mikita and my second best defensive forward, with plenty of speed, Rousseau on Joliat. I think Ricci has the grit and determination to match up with a big boy like Pitre, speed may be a minor issue but that's what my system, defense and goaltending are for.

    Also, the Mooseheads will be ok with matching their top line against the Mikita line from time to time, mainly because Bailey has been noted to agitate Joliat in the past, a trade off we would certainly take at any opportunity:

    Obviously the Mikita line is Montreal's bread and butter and the Mooseheads primary concern, if they can be contained the Mooseheads should be able to control the outcome of this series. Obviously I don't expect to completely keep them off the scoreboard, that would be naive, but believe my above strategy will certainly limit the damage.

    Oh and the advantage for the Mooseheads between the pipes is astronoimical, while their coaching advantage is quite large as well.

    Edit: The checking line will be: Ricci-Walker-Rousseau

    -with whoever is hotter on the draws between Ricci and Walker taking them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  4. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    I welcome and encourage advantage to return and debate this series.

    If not, I'll try and field any concerns other GMs may have with the Mooseheads.

    I'll be doing some further comparisons later as well.
     
  5. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Blake vs. Joliat

    TTG
    Joliat: 2, 2, 3, 5, 9, 9, 10
    Blake: 2, 3, 3, 8, 10

    TTA
    Joliat: 3, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 10
    Blake: 3, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10

    TTP
    Joliat: 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 8, 8, 9, 10
    Blake: 1, 3, 3, 6, 7, 9

    Both players have a Hart Trophy, while Blake has two more first all star team selections and one less second team selection. It's clear that Joliat is a bit better from an offensive perspective. Joliat was small even for his day, so Blake has a size advantage, while Joliat has a speed advantage. It's difficult to quantify but I'm under the impression that these two players were of similar caliber defensively, which leads me to believe Blake has an edge in intangible qualities even though both were tenacious, tough and thought the game at a very high level... but Blake probably has an edge in all these criteria and was a great leader and long time captain.

    Finally, Blake was a much better playoff performer. Leading the playoffs in points and assists in one year that his Habs team won the cup, and lead the playoffs in goals in another season the Habs won the cup. Finally, in a third cup run he lead the league in assists once again, but the Habs lost in the finals to the Leafs. All three of these great runs were as captain of the team. Joliat led the league in assists in the playoffs twice with 4 in 10 games, and 1 in 2 games. During his career Blake was over a PPG in the playoffs while Joliat is at about .5 ppg over his playoff career.

    In the end I would call these two almost a wash. After factoring in the fact that this is the playoffs, I'll give a slight edge to Halifax.


    Meant to do more but have to go!
     
  6. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I would also agree that Joliat and Blake are a wash. One impression I get, though, is that Blake was a player who could be intimidating physically, even mean. Whereas Joliat was just a small, scrappy guy. Certainly infuriating to play against at times, like Theoren Fleury, but no power forward.
     
  7. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Obviously Mikita is significantly better than Howe, I'm not going to waste my time arguing that...but it doesn't make Howe a bad player by any means...so here is a bio for those who don't know about Syd Howe. http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31817000&postcount=139

    Bailey vs. Pitre
    I won't go in to a statistical break down because Pitre's prime was in the 1910's and I don't have them on hand. Pitre is the better offensive weapon no question, big, fast, and a great sniper in his day. However, Bailey was no offense slouch in his short career, winning a retro Art Ross and Maurice Richard in his big year. He was top 6 in points twice more, and in the top ten in assists three more times in addition to his big season in 1929.

    I will, however, argue that Bailey is a better defensive forward even though Pitre played some defense. Bailey was always a hard worker and fairly tenacious forward with some agitating qualities. Bailey bio: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31943200&postcount=160

    I have no choice but to give a slight edge to Montreal due to the brevity of Bailey's career.

    Which of course results in the expected edge to Montreal in first lines.

    When I decided to not pick a forward until the third round I needed a first line willing to set an example for the teams identity, which would a hard working, defensively responsible and grinding style. While I know I have one of the weaker first lines offensively, it is one of the most intangible laden and will not be fun to play against.
     
  8. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Gaye Stewart-Doug Weight-Eddie Oatman (A) vs. Jiri Holik - Marty Walsh - Reggie Leach

    Stewart is probably better than Holik, however I would love to know more about Jiri. If anyone disagrees I will look in to it more. Here's a bio LF made on the lightning-fast Gaye Stewart: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=21751128&postcount=31

    While 100 picks separates them, how big is the gap between Walsh and Weight? I may be able to concede a very slight edge to Walsh based on his dominance in 70 top level games, because of a goal scoring and defensive advantage...but I always find myself questioning players with so few games at the highest level, I think it at least translates in to a consistency issue in the ATD. Weight was a speedy and gritty player as well though, and an excellent playmaker for a number of years while providing good leadership qualities on multiple teams over his career. Weight proved that he could be the primary offensive engine on a low scoring playoff team as you can see here is his bio: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31996051&postcount=168.

    There can certainly be an argument made that Oatman is better than Leach based on seventies work in ATD's past and information brought up by other GMs. Leach had a great peak but Oatman was the model of consistency and probably brought a lot more intangible qualities to the table.

    Seventies posted this solid quote in the dirt thread:
    I had to dig for it as my search function isn't working when I search words, thankfully I remembered nik jr was the one who posted all of this excellent information:

    calgary herald on oatman's shot, possibly related to shooting from close range:
    In addition to this fantastic seventies bio from last year: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=24861606&postcount=145... I think there is enough evidence to call Oatman both a better all around offensive threat and a more defensive and physical player than Leach. Add that to the fact that he was a great captain and I think Halifax has a decided edge at RW.

    As for the lines as a whole I think that Halifax's line is better offensively and better built. Both have a solid defensive presence and decent enough goal scoring but Halifax has a speed, playmaking, and intangible advantage...and are built to work well with the teams strong transition defense. I think Montreal's line lacks enough playmaking for Walsh and Leach to both be productive goal scorers.
     
  9. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Reggie Leach just seems like a guy who needs a top notch playmaker to be effective, and he doesn't have that here. The chemistry of Montreal's second line is a definite weakness.
     
  10. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Checking lines:

    Mike Ricci-Jack Walker-Bobby Rousseau vs. Marty Pavelich -Ralph Backstrom - Blair Russel
    Ricci is the weak link on my unit, no question. If I had sacrificed another area of my team in an earlier round I think I would have had the best two way checking line (outside of top sixes of course). Anyway Pavelich is a highly regarded checking winger but isn't any better than Ricci offensivley...neither are much of an ATD factor in that regard. Ricci also steps his game up in the playoffs. Ricci has a strong selke record, and while he's clearly on a lower level than Pavelich, I think he is plenty effective to handle the RW's on Montreal adequately. Meanwhile, Pavelich will be up against the weakest player on my top line if Montreals questionable coaches have any hope in getting their matchups on the road. Here is Ricci's bio: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=32183020&postcount=218.

    Jack Walker is certainly the best defensive player on either line, better in that regard than Backstrom. While Backstrom had a few strong offensive seasons, Walker had better longevity in his scoring record. Halifax has a clear advantage here, and has their best defensive player lining up against Montreals top weapon. Here is Dreaks great Walker bio: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=24328449&postcount=67.

    I consider Rousseau and Russel to be fairly close but have to give the edge to Rousseau for his similar number of strong offensive finishes in the regular season and playoffs in a significantly deeper era. In terms of defensive quality, I'd call it close to a wash. Factor in that Rousseau can play the point on the pp and kill penalties at a high level, and Halifax takes the slight edge at RW. Rousseau bio by EB: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=21620525&postcount=730

    In conclusion, I think the lines are on a similar (high) level defensively while Halifax may have the offensive edge, especially in instances where Lecavalier skates with Walker and Rousseau (when Howe takes a shift or two against Mikita of course). Slight edge to Halifax due to the matching up of positions actually targeted towards the other teams top two offensive players, and a slight offensive edge.
     
  11. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Taking a break for a bit, next on the agenda:

    -Halifax's two biggest advantages: goaltending and coaching.
    -D pairings
    -Special teams
    -4th lines
     
  12. BillyShoe1721

    BillyShoe1721 Terriers

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    I think you're selling Pavelich a little bit short here. I think he's a definite big step up from Ricci defensively, and I'd take Pavelich-Backstrom over Ricci-Walker any day. The gap between Pavelich and Ricci is definitely larger than the gap between Walker and Backstrom(I'm not sure there is any discernible gap here), and Rousseau and Russel.
     
  13. Stoneberg

    Stoneberg Bored

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    Fair enough, but without presenting reasoning I won't be taking any of this as fact, it's just opinion.

    The gap between Pavelich and Ricci is large defensively, no question, maybe I didn't fully clarify that. Jack Walker was probably the best defensive player of his era, Bacsktrom certainly can't say the same...and Walker is better offensively. Backstrom was a third line center in real life his whole career while Walker was a top line player. You must know something I don't about Backstrom defensively (I had him in the LC ATD), if so, please share it. If Backstrom is even nearly as good a checking line player as Walker, it must mean Rousseau is way better than Russel...because clearly the early eras would have to be quite discounted.

    The reason my checking line has the edge in this series regardless is that my checking players line up better against the other teams major threats, and it's better offensively. It would still take a serious argument for me to consider Montreal's on a higher level defensively.
     
  14. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Halifax defeats Montreal in 5 games.

    3 stars:

    Brodeur
    Mikita
    Park

    also a factor: Syd Howe, Toe Blake, Mark Howe
     

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