ATD Chat Thread XVII

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Namba 17

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I have the strong impression that if you were a gifted student in math in the post-war era, you were better off being born in the Soviet Union than in North America and or the West in general (except perhaps, France, which had an immense intellectual effervescence after WWII).

While I'm no mathematician, I know a bit about the field and its history, and the Russians/Soviets are highly respected and probably not as famous as they deserve.
I'm not a mathematician either (I studied further mathematics, though), so I can't compare Soviet math education and NA or European ones. Russian/Soviet math school was one of the best in the world in the end of XIX - XX century, though. A lot of great names + the whole system of math study, including the net of specialized secondary schools with enhanced education in physics and mathematics. These schools situated in big cities and collected the most gifted pupils from neighbor regions to develop their talent further. There were schools' Mathematical Olympiads for pupils of usual schools - Olympiads of cities, regions, republics, state's, international. It was very prestigious to participate there and much more prestigious to make top-3 or even top-10 (depends on level of competition). Teachers noticed gifted pupils and asked them to represent their school on Olympiad of lower level. Prize winners of Olympiads of lower level could participate on Olympiad of higher level etc. The most gifted were taken to special schools and after they finished it - to the best universities. It was the whole system of finding and developing talents.
As for being born in Soviet Union... well, you'd better not being born there at all before 1953 :) And after that, standard of living in USSR was much lower than in NA and lower than in some of European countries... but Math was great, though:)
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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As for being born in Soviet Union... well, you'd better not being born there at all before 1953 :) And after that, standard of living in USSR was much lower than in NA and lower than in some of European countries... but Math was great, though:)
No smile emoji.

My dad was born in Hungary in 1931. He carried a hand gun on the streets of Budapest as a 25-year-old mechanical engineer during the 1956 Hungarian Revolution (it failed; Soviet tanks came and thousands of young Hungarian freedom fighters were "arrested"/disappeared forever. My dad hightailed it. His two buddies didn't make it. He did, having already served two years of mandatory military service as a training officer (the Russians didn't usually make Hungarians become lieutenants or captains but my dad beat up all three soldiers who tried to wake him up pre-dawn on day one (he was still punch drunk from the late night pre-enlistment (remember it was mandatory not popular) so they decided his alpha *** would have to become a hard-*** trainer!!

Anyways, my dad survived the failed revolution and escaped to England, ending up six months later in Canada, given $5 and told "This is Canada." With no knowledge of the language, no local recognition of his education, he had to settle on fixing cars, as being a mechanic in the 1950's wasn't so far off moneywise than being the engineer he was trained to be. In fact, being a mechanic paid well until technicians and computers specialized things in the 1980's.
 

Namba 17

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No smile emoji.

My dad was born in Hungary in 1931. He carried a hand gun on the streets of Budapest as a 25-year-old mechanical engineer during the 1956 Hungarian Revolution (it failed; Soviet tanks came and thousands of young Hungarian freedom fighters were "arrested"/disappeared forever. My dad hightailed it. His two buddies didn't make it. He did, having already served two years of mandatory military service as a training officer (the Russians didn't usually make Hungarians become lieutenants or captains but my dad beat up all three soldiers who tried to wake him up pre-dawn on day one (he was still punch drunk from the late night pre-enlistment (remember it was mandatory not popular) so they decided his alpha *** would have to become a hard-*** trainer!!

Anyways, my dad survived the failed revolution and escaped to England, ending up six months later in Canada, given $5 and told "This is Canada." With no knowledge of the language, no local recognition of his education, he had to settle on fixing cars, as being a mechanic in the 1950's wasn't so far off moneywise than being the engineer he was trained to be. In fact, being a mechanic paid well until technicians and computers specialized things in the 1980's.
Great story!
At least he had an option to escape to England...
 

Namba 17

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My grand-grand father (grandfather of my father) didn't have any options. He was shot in 1937 as "an enemy of the people". His wife (my grand-grand mother) received small peace of paper in 1956, where it was written that he was rehabilitated as an innocent.
My grandfather (father of my mother, whom I remember) was sentenced to 25 years of prison in 1938. He was released in 1939 after Stalin decided that Ezhov overdid it a little and some sentences were canceled. He was found not guilty as well.
 

VanIslander

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Great story!
At least he had an option to escape to England...
He first wanted to go to Australia. Then USA. But both countries had reached their quotas for Hungarian emigrants. So Canada it was.

My grand-grand father (grandfather of my father) didn't have any options. He was shot in 1937 as "an enemy of the people". His wife (my grand-grand mother) received small peace of paper in 1956, where it was written that he was rehabilitated as an innocent.
My grandfather (father of my mother, whom I remember) was sentenced to 25 years of prison in 1938. He was released in 1939 after Stalin decided that Ezhov overdid it a little and some sentences were canceled. He was found not guilty as well.
My dad liked Russians. I know because he had had a few good friends from there, and he had never said a bad word about anything Russian other than the government. When he went to take a piss (never a dump) he would often say: "Oh, i have to give a message to the Russian premier."

:)

Note: He did not say Soviet because i think he had several Ukranian friends and he himself being Hungarian raised and army-trained by Russian-speaking officers.... he only held "politics" and "government" responsible, never prejudice against individuals - but clearly Russians representing the oppressive gov't.

In fact, any time there was a news story profiling a different ethnicity, he'd crack out an old story.

For example, when an Asian guy in Edmonton cut off a man's head my dad reminded me the doctor who delivered me ( in Vancouver General Hospital in 1969 ) was Chinese.

And when an African American killed a clerk on video my dad quickly told me again the story of the first black guy he ever met, an American in London who spoke perfect Hungarian because he was raised by a Hungarian-American family and he was a translator helping my dad and others figure out where to emigrate to.

My dad told off-color jokes about all kinds of ethnicity (edit: not black or Asian, but Irish, Scottish, Italian, French, Jewish, Catholic, Indian, German, Swedish and Turkish) yet sought to treat everyone he met equally. Nowadays young people are the opposite: speak equality but treat people differently. Plus, instead of forgiving ignorance there's cancel culture.

"Social media" (online mobile always-accessible communication between strangers) has changed the world.
 
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Namba 17

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but clearly Russians representing the oppressive gov't.
Stalin and Beria were Georgians, Trotsky and Andropov were Jews, Brezhnev and Chernenko were Ukrainians, Dzerzhinsky and Vyshinsky were Polish, Latvians were the reason Bolsheviks retained their power, but it were Russians who representing the oppressive gov't. Pretty telling.
 

VanIslander

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... Trotsky and Andropov were Jews, ...
So, they weren't Jewish Russians?

And - most relevant to the story i told of my dad - the soldiers and officers in Hungary who trained my dad and policed the locals were RUSSIANS. So, my dad wasn't delusional in "giving a message to the Russian premier" when he took a piss.

Again, I was clear to show it was about the government in Russia, not the Russian people. My dad never said a bad thing about any Russian (unlike ****'n Don Cherry) but he saw how Moscow ruled Hungary and he and other Hungarians, Ukranians, Jews too, Siberians and Latvians (to mention people i remember from my youth) were quick to criticize Moscow and be dustrustful of what they saw as "Russian rule". Again, the gov't not the babushka or emigrant.
 

Namba 17

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So, they weren't Jewish Russians?
Soviet. At lest Trotsky, who literary said that about him ("I'm not Jew I'm Soviet").
Russians in these context are misleading. This leads to impression, that it were Russians, who conquered other nations and depressed them. In fact, Russians were the nation, that suffered the most. The most loss during WWII. The most lost during Stalin's terror. Money went to the national republics (which are independent states now) while Central Russia (old traditional Russian regions - Ryazan, Tver, Kursk etc) were one of the most depressive regions (and still are). Baltic countries cries now about occupation, but their standards of living were the highest in the USSR (for the record - it doesn't mean that I justify the occupation). Georgian peasant were like 100 times more wealthy than his Russian colleague from some Tambov Region. etc.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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Huh.

So the rulers of the Russian city of Moscow were non-Russian?

Were Siberians really overlords?

Are you Russian?

It's hard to make sense of what you are saying.
 

Namba 17

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So the rulers of the Russian city of Moscow were non-Russian?
I've just showed that they were of different nationalities.
If the capital of the USSR was moved to Kiev (the 1st Russian capital, BWT) or to Riga (as Peter the 1st planned) it wouldn't make Ukrainians or Latvians the oppressors.
The name of the country was Soviet Union. It's more correct to call leaders and the government "Soviet".
 

VanIslander

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And yet they spoke Russian and ruled in Moscow.

It is interesting that you suggest Russians suffered MORE than other Soviet republics. I have only heard about Czechs, Hungarians, Ukranians, Latvians and Siberian peoples who griped about Russian dominance during Soviet times.
 

MadArcand

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I think Namba's been reading a bit too much official Russian propaganda (as evidenced by calling Kiev first "Russian" capital, when "Rus" back then had nothing to do with what's the core of Russia these days - i.e. Muscovy). That said I'm sure the life of average Russian peasant/worker was just as atrocious as the life of average peasant/worker in Ukraine or Belarus and far worse than life in Czechoslovakia/Hungary/anywhere else outside of USSR.
 

BenchBrawl

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One of those days I'll start reading everything about the fascinating story of this part of the world. For some mysterious reason I feel close to the Eastern Europe soul.
 

BenchBrawl

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I think Namba's been reading a bit too much official Russian propaganda (as evidenced by calling Kiev first "Russian" capital, when "Rus" back then had nothing to do with what's the core of Russia these days - i.e. Muscovy). That said I'm sure the life of average Russian peasant/worker was just as atrocious as the life of average peasant/worker in Ukraine or Belarus and far worse than life in Czechoslovakia/Hungary/anywhere else outside of USSR.

You mean in the post-war era?
 

BenchBrawl

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Frankly any era. I don't think you can find a time when a Russian commoner was better off than his counterpart in central Europe even if you go back a thousand years.

That's interesting, without thinking about it, I assumed people in "Russia" were always better off than the satellites squeezed between the West and Moscow. Of course here "Russian" is a large category, and I'm not talking about people in the far asian part since I'm not sure they had anything to do with "europe".

I should read about the Balkan wars too, that shit looked crazy from the testimonies I've read of people who lived there.
 

BenchBrawl

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My problem with reading about Eastern Europe, as it was when I was reading about Nazi Germany, is that knowing only French and English, everything I read comes with a Western propaganda absorbed by even the historians, which is really, really annoying. I just want all perspective from all sides—all the Zeitgeists—and extract the kernel of truth myself. Everyone is doing propaganda to varying degrees, no matter how objective, so I need the whole thing.

I still hope to learn German and Russian languages in my lifetime.
 

Theokritos

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Baltic countries cries now about occupation, but their standards of living were the highest in the USSR

Not due to the Soviet Union though. The Baltic countries were already more economically sound before 1940. The Soviet occupation didn't do them any good, not even relative to Russia.

Frankly any era. I don't think you can find a time when a Russian commoner was better off than his counterpart in central Europe even if you go back a thousand years.

Yeah, as bad as the Soviet time was for many in Russia: it's not like the country was doing well in Imperial time either. It was economically backward and had an oppressive and ruthless government for ages.
 
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MadArcand

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That's interesting, without thinking about it, I assumed people in "Russia" were always better off than the satellites squeezed between the West and Moscow. Of course here "Russian" is a large category, and I'm not talking about people in the far asian part since I'm not sure they had anything to do with "europe".
Russia itself has always been on periphery of Europe. Deep continental climate, constant threat of nomadic hordes and position off the main trading routes led to centuries of backwards society. Meanwhile the satellites were part of European core (HRE, Hungary, Poland) or orbiting major powers (Balkans). Even other European* parts of USSR were in better position than Russia - Baltics were conquered by Teutonic knights and received massive mercantile immigration from Hanseatic cities, Ukraine & Belarus were part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth & Moldova was basically orbiting in between PLC and Hungary. Caucasus was a mess, but given better climate & trading opportunities, still much wealthier mess than Russia.

*The central Asian -stans of course were a different case, ranging from incredibly wealthy areas along the silk road (like Bukhara, Samarqand, Khiva etc.) and open empty steppe & desert under nomadic control.

I should read about the Balkan wars too, that shit looked crazy from the testimonies I've read of people who lived there.
There's a documentary by BBC from just a few years after the Balkan wars on Youtube:
 
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BenchBrawl

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Yeah, as bad as the Soviet time was for many in Russia: it's not like the country was doing well in Imperial time either. It was economically backward and had an oppressive and ruthless government for ages.

So basically, for Russians, as bad as Stalin was, it was in their mores to expect high levels of suffering, so it felt "continuous" when Stalin arrived?
 

BenchBrawl

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Russia itself has always been on periphery of Europe. Deep continental climate, constant threat of nomadic hordes and position off the main trading routes led to centuries of backwards society. Meanwhile the satellites were part of European core (HRE, Hungary, Poland) or orbiting major powers (Balkans). Even other European* parts of USSR were in better position than Russia - Baltics were conquered by Teutonic knights and received massive mercantile immigration from Hanseatic cities, Ukraine & Belarus were part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth & Moldova was basically orbiting in between PLC and Hungary. Caucasus was a mess, but given better climate & trading opportunities, still much wealthier mess than Russia.

*The central Asian -stans of course were a different case, ranging from incredibly wealthy areas along the silk road (like Bukhara, Samarqand, Khiva etc.) and open empty steppe & desert under nomadic control.


There's a documentary by BBC from just a few years after the Balkan wars on Youtube:


Very interesting, thank you.
 

Theokritos

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So basically, for Russians, as bad as Stalin was, it was in their mores to expect high levels of suffering, so it felt "continuous" when Stalin arrived?

I can't speak for what Russians felt back then, but I'm certain that, as always, not everyone felt the same. One thing that is clear in hindsight is that the heights (or shall we say lows) of Stalinism were worse than anything the country had experienced before or would experience after. But there sure was a high degree of continuity in the level of oppression from the Tsarist time to the 1920s and the time after Stalin.
 
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BenchBrawl

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I can't speak for what Russians felt back then, but I'm certain that, as always, not everyone felt the same. One thing that is clear in hindsight is that the heights (or shall we say lows) of Stalinism were worse than anything the country had experienced before or would experience after. But there sure was a high degree of continuity in the level of oppression from the Tsarist time to the 1920s and the time after Stalin.

Thanks, make sense.

Stalin was a total psychopath. It always freaked me out how he consolidated power by just terrorizing everyone. This contrasts with Hitler who still cared about public opinion to a large extent.
 

Namba 17

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And yet they spoke Russian
What does this suppose to prove? I think, Ukranians, Latvians and Siberian whom you spoke to spoke Russian as well.
and ruled in Moscow.
Moscow was just a location of very international government called himself "Soviet". You could move it to any city inside the USSR - the result would be the same.

It is interesting that you suggest Russians suffered MORE than other Soviet republics. I have only heard about Czechs, Hungarians,
I told about republics of the USSR only.

Ukranians, Latvians and Siberian peoples who griped about Russian dominance during Soviet times.
Could you specify, please? What exactly did they say, about what period of time exactly? Whom do you mean by Siberian - native Siberian (Buryats, Chukchi) or everybody who lives here?
Lets consider Brezhnev's time key leaders:
Brezhnev - Ukrainian
Chernenko - Ukrainian
Tikhonov - unclear, but was born in Kharkov (Ukraine), went to school there and graduated from Ukrainian university.
Schelokov - unclear, but was born in Ukraine, graduated from Ukrainian university.
Tsvigun - Ukrainian. Was born in Ukraine, graduated from Ukrainian university
Suslov - Russian
Gromyko - Belorussian
Ustinov - Russian
Kosygin - Russian
Andropov - Jew
What Russian dominance did they talked about exactly?
 

Theokritos

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I think we have to differentiate between two different aspects here.

On the one hand, the party leaders and ruling circles in the Soviet Union didn't view themselves as Russian, they did indeed considered themselves as "Soviets" first and foremost. Regardless of their ethnic background and nationality, they were working for one and the same supranational system.

On the other hand, the core of the Soviet Union was of course Russia (Russian Federative Socialist Republic). That's where the revolution had started in 1917, that's where the Communist state had its origin and base. It was the loyality of the Russian people to the Soviet Union respectively Red Army that made the Union work. Had Ukraine or Belarus or any SSR decided to do away with Communism, it would have been doomed. The Red Army would have forced them back on track. When Russia decided to do away with Communism, the Soviet Union was doomed.
 
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