ATD Chat Thread XVI

[Habsfan18]

I found Hockey: A People’s History DVD boxset at a local thrift store the other day and I’m currently re-watching it after seeing it years ago.

Have you guys watched it? It was a 10 episode documentary series produced for CBC back in 2006. I forgot how great it is. Truly is a great documentary. The massive hardcover book is incredible as well.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Yep, but there is room for three teams that suck to make the playoffs in the West.

Hitchcock just about quit the team

We're done

Sorry have to keep tagging you as we throw away another season

 

[VanIslander]

I had the book and used it thoroughly for several ATDs, MLDs and AAAs.

I gave it away just under two years ago when I moved to a new town.

Note: There's awesome layout graphics and short tidbit boxes throughout the book. Very visual, lots of info and a lot of pre-NHL hockey greats.

The only book better at photo/graphic layout coupled with detailed accounts for a history text was the "Metro Ice" book about New York area hockey. That also was a compelling book to return to time and again.

 

[BenchBrawl]

When looking at Kucherov's super pace right now, with 99 pts in 60 games, something we haven't seen in a while, it might be a good time to reflect that in 92-93, Lemieux scored 160 pts in 60 games.

Why is the NHL becoming so loose all of a sudden? I was not expecting that at all.

Kane is also on a major streak.

 

[BenchBrawl]

@ResilientBeast it's kindda lame that you locked the positional thread for everyone else.

Figuring out the position of all players should be fairly easy to do if we bother spending the time scanning every game, which is doable on newspapers.com and a few other ressources.

Edit: If someone else want to do it with me and "split the research", we can determine who does what and get it done for ALL players, for EVERY game in a relatively short amount of time.

 

[ResilientBeast]

@ResilientBeast it's kindda lame that you locked the positional thread for everyone else.

Figuring out the position of all players should be fairly easy to do if we bother spending the time scanning every game, which is doable on newspapers.com and a few other ressources.

Edit: If someone else want to do it with me and "split the research", we can determine who does what and get it done for ALL players, for EVERY game in a relatively short amount of time.

I just want that thread to be unclogged up and not full of back and forth. Modeled after the award thread on the HOH, I have a goal.

I have complete access to the Globe and Mail which seems to have every game, and then some western sources which give me almost total coverage until 1923.

Armed with my copy of Trail Vol 1, I've got my little side project. If you've got stuff or want to coordinate by all means I'll welcome help.

I would just like that thread to be chronological season by season results and not outright discussions since we are just dealing with "Facts"

I'm also doing this to build the database for @seventieslord's dream project of season by season all star teams for the era that doesn't have them. So I'm saving everything

 

[BenchBrawl]

I just want that thread to be unclogged up and not full of back and forth. Modeled after the award thread on the HOH, I have a goal.

I have complete access to the Globe and Mail which seems to have every game, and then some western sources which give me almost total coverage until 1923.

Armed with my copy of Trail Vol 1, I've got my little side project. If you've got stuff or want to coordinate by all means I'll welcome help.

I would just like that thread to be chronological season by season results and not outright discussions since we are just dealing with "Facts"

I'm also doing this to build the database for @seventieslord's dream project of season by season all star teams for the era that doesn't have them. So I'm saving everything

I have complete access to many newspapers via my subscription on newspapers.com.I'm fairly sure I can manage to find every game from 1910 to 1923 through this, though sometimes the lineup positions can change from one journal to the next depending how direct the coverage is.

Not sure why anyone who can afford the 19$ for a month don't subscribe to this site.It is a gold mine.I only subscribe when I need it, in the ATD months.You can even make some key words search, but also search by date, and it's all very fluid.

So say I want to know the line positions of all games for the Ottawa Senators in 1919, I just set up the Ottawa Citizen or the Ottawa Journal, both of which are available completely with a subscription, I write the dates of all games for the season on a piece of paper, then start checking the date just after every game on the site, find the sports page, and scan for the lineup.It takes what? A minute maximum? Not even a minute most likely for every game.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I have complete access to many newspapers via my subscription on newspapers.com.I'm fairly sure I can manage to find every game from 1910 to 1923 through this, though sometimes the position can change from one journal to the next depending how direct the coverage is.

I'm half way through transcribing 1910 NHA and I plan to for NHA/NHL only use the Globe and Mail to try and somewhat consistent.

Date	Team	Goal	Point	Cover	Rover	Center	Right Wing	Left Wing
15-Jan-10	Renfrew	Lindsay	L. Patrick	Taylor	Rowe	Jordan	F.Patrick/Lifton	Fraser
15-Jan-10	Wanderers	Hern	Marshall	Johnston	Glass	Russell	Hyland	Gardner
15-Jan-10	Shamrocks	Baker	Forester	Holden	Dunderdale	Smith	Hall	Bellamy
15-Jan-10	Ottawa	Leseur	Lake	Shore	Stuart	Walsh	Ridpath	Roberts
18-Jan-10	Cobalt
18-Jan-10	Haileyview
19-Jan-10	Renfrew	Lindsay	F.Patrick	Taylor	L.Patrick	Jordan	Rowe	Gilmour
19-Jan-10	Canadiens

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This is a snippet of my formatting

If you want to help out, why don't we alternate seasons?

I take 1910, 1912 etc for the NHA and see what we get?

 

[tinyzombies]

Reading Dick Irvin's 26 Cups book (page 74) and he says the Globe and Mail used to print TOI in what I understood to be the mid-50s.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Crosby quietly rising in the scorers list this season.Now 8th.All the while playing great all-around hockey.

Still the guy I'd take #1 for a playoff run.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Crosby is currently +19, Malkin -20.

That's bad.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Crosby is currently +19, Malkin -20.

That's bad.

I wonder what the record is for biggest +/- discrepancy between a team's 1st and 2nd leading scorer, wouldn't be surprised if this is it (Kessel and Malkin are tied for 2nd, but Kessel is a -17 himself).

 

[BenchBrawl]

I wonder what the record is for biggest +/- discrepancy between a team's 1st and 2nd leading scorer, wouldn't be surprised if this is it (Kessel and Malkin are tied for 2nd, but Kessel is a -17 himself).

Not sure, @Hockey Outsider or @seventieslord might have the answer to this.

In any case, it's an ostentatious representation of the problems with Malkin, and the hidden value in Crosby.

Is it crazy to say Crosby might be the best player in the league right now? When you look at everything he brings compared to the other top 10 scorers? Faceoffs (at 55+% now), defensive play, tough match-ups, leadership, ES dominance etc.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists

 

[The Macho King]

Not sure, @Hockey Outsider or @seventieslord might have the answer to this.

In any case, it's an ostentatious representation of the problems with Malkin, and the hidden value in Crosby.

Is it crazy to say Crosby might be the best player in the league right now? When you look at everything he brings compared to the other top 10 scorers? Faceoffs (at 55+% now), defensive play, tough match-ups, leadership etc.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists

Seems odd to crow about that when you're talking about a team that's 2 points away from the 9 seed.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Seems odd to crow about that when you're talking about a team that's 2 points away from the 9 seed.

IMO they will make the playoffs.Is it really Crosby's fault if they are out of contention? All indications are that he's a Top 10 scorer and brings pretty much everything else to the table.

Meanwhile, you have superstar Malkin bleeding at -20 and at 44% on faceoffs.If Malkin was a bit better defensively, then maybe Pittsburgh would be in a playoff spot right now.

But granted I'm unaware of the real reasons for Pittsburgh's struggle this year.

@ImporterExporter ?

 

[The Macho King]

I guess I'm getting my back up because the explanation for the past two seasons was "his offense is declining because he's saving it for the playoffs." And then the Pens went to the playoffs and did well, so the argument had some merit.

But now, Pens are fighting for a playoff spot, not playing particularly well (Malkin certainly has a role in this, as does Kessel from my ~5 games I've seen over the last few weeks), and maybe 40-50% to make the playoffs right now. Crosby is top 10 in points, but it's more of a situation where Crosby is with the pack of ~10-15 players who have between 68 and 73 points.

Kane? He seems to be a guy trying to drag his team into the playoffs. I don't know the rules about undrafteds in the chat thread, so I won't mention his name, but there's another guy that's just torching the league at a pace not seen since 66 and 68. Crosby having 55% faceoffs doesn't really make up that huge gap IMO.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I guess I'm getting my back up because the explanation for the past two seasons was "his offense is declining because he's saving it for the playoffs." And then the Pens went to the playoffs and did well, so the argument had some merit.

But now, Pens are fighting for a playoff spot, not playing particularly well (Malkin certainly has a role in this, as does Kessel from my ~5 games I've seen over the last few weeks), and maybe 40-50% to make the playoffs right now. Crosby is top 10 in points, but it's more of a situation where Crosby is with the pack of ~10-15 players who have between 68 and 73 points.

Kane? He seems to be a guy trying to drag his team into the playoffs. I don't know the rules about undrafteds in the chat thread, so I won't mention his name, but there's another guy that's just torching the league at a pace not seen since 66 and 68. Crosby having 55% faceoffs doesn't really make up that huge gap IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kane has a very strong case, but that's obvious isn't it?

Talks surrounding Crosby have been very quiet this year, which is why I brought it up.

Kane is great, but Toews is doing the dirty work.

Crosby is doing the dirty work and putting up the points.Granted right now that's not enough, and you don't feel the same buzz around him than you feel around Kane in trying to fight for a playoff spot.But the season isn't finished yet.Let's see what they both do in the last stretch.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I watch literally 99% of Pens games. I've been very fair in evaluating Sid over the years, pointing out pro's and con's. I'm not some ballwashing fan that thinks he's a top 5 player ever, not even quite top 10 but let me be crystal clear:

This is the most complete I've ever seen Sid. He's scoring at a premium rate, especially considering his age relative to others around him. He's on a 100 point pace and that's with 3 games missed. I've never seen him better defensively. He's being used on the 2nd team PK and racking up more and more minutes there while producing points SH. His possession metrics are through the roof good and it's absolutely warranted. His line has dominated possession throughout this year and kept the Pens from being much further down the standings than they are. Yeah, Sid's had more dominant offensive years, but he's had 3 straight top 10 Selke finishes coming into this year (I think they're a bit overrated in the grand scheme) but this year he'll almost surely finish high in Selke voting and it's earned IMO.

The defense is horrible. Absolutely putrid. Mattaa is awful (hurt now). Jack Johnson was one of, if not the worst signing by Jim Rutherford since he arrived. Schultz has been out most of the year with a broken leg and just returned. Letang is playing at Norris level but other then him, the group has simply been pathetic on the whole. Routinely outshot, giving up premium scoring chances over and over any time lines 2-4 are on the ice.

Then you have Matt Murray who for the past year+ has been one of the most disappointing players in the league, given what he accomplished during the back to back Cup years.

And yes, Malkin has been awful. Worst I've seen him to date. It's night and day between 87 and 71 this season.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I watch literally 99% of Pens games. I've been very fair in evaluating Sid over the years, pointing out pro's and con's. I'm not some ballwashing fan that thinks he's a top 5 player ever, not even quite top 10 but let me be crystal clear:

This is the most complete I've ever seen Sid. He's scoring at a premium rate, especially considering his age relative to others around him. He's on a 100 point pace and that's with 3 games missed. I've never seen him better defensively. He's being used on the 2nd team PK and racking up more and more minutes there while producing points SH. His possession metrics are through the roof good and it's absolutely warranted. His line has dominated possession throughout this year and kept the Pens from being much further down the standings than they are. Yeah, Sid's had more dominant offensive years, but he's had 3 straight top 10 Selke finishes coming into this year (I think they're a bit overrated in the grand scheme) but this year he'll almost surely finish high in Selke voting and it's earned IMO.

The defense is horrible. Absolutely putrid. Mattaa is awful (hurt now). Jack Johnson was one of, if not the worst signing by Jim Rutherford since he arrived. Schultz has been out most of the year with a broken leg and just returned. Letang is playing at Norris level but other then him, the group has simply been pathetic on the whole. Routinely outshot, giving up premium scoring chances over and over any time lines 2-4 are on the ice.

Then you have Matt Murray who for the past year+ has been one of the most disappointing players in the league, given what he accomplished during the back to back Cup years.

And yes, Malkin has been awful. Worst I've seen him to date. It's night and day between 87 and 71 this season.

Thank you.

That confirms my intuition.

Crosby is well on his way to have a fantastic back-9 on his career because he's adapting his game and becoming another sort of elite player, more suited to a body in his 30s.Something Gretzky or Lemieux never did, but Beliveau did.

Malkin? Talent will always be there, offensive IQ.But he'll need to step up defensively.

 

[BenchBrawl]

There's no excuse for someone of Malkin's natural talent and size, and skating ability, to be so poor defensively 10 years into his career.

Before age 27-28 I get it, your body is at its peak, you never experienced the slowing down that comes with age, you're dominating offensively.But at some point you feel a little bit of ageing creeping in, you mature and understand that the defensive side is important to winning championships, and you at least try to get better.Not Selke caliber.Just decent.

Not sure if Malkin tried, maybe he did.But that's embarassing.

 

[ImporterExporter]

There's no excuse for someone of Malkin's natural talent and size, and skating ability, to be so poor defensively 10 years into his career.

Before age 27-28 I get it, your body is at its peak, you never experienced the slowing down that comes with age, you're dominating offensively.But at some point you feel a little bit of ageing creeping in, you mature and understand that the defensive side is important to winning championships, and you at least try to get better.Not Selke caliber.Just decent.

Not sure if Malkin tried, maybe he did.But that's embarassing.

Malkin, when he's motivated and on full tilt is as good or better than any player since Mario. Offensively speaking. I honestly mean that. But the issue with Malkin has been injuries (even more so than Sid) and a hot and cold motor. The latter seems to be a bigger problem the older he gets. That's a big difference between he and Sid. Sid might take the occasional shift off or gear down to preserve his body and stamina over the grind of a season, but the work ethic and dedication to the game is such a massive difference between the two. It's not only supported by the eye test but also source material.

 

[VanIslander]

I was just reading about the new golden age of American players (especially detailing Patrick Kane's re-energized play). The article lists a number of prospects and young NHLers "under the age of 25" and I was stunned to realize...

Seth Jones is still under 25.

*stunned*

It seems like forever since his rookie season in Nashville. He was a 2nd team all star last season, but I only watched parts of three games with Columbus that year. CBJ is on par with the Yotes in my desire to not watch.

 

[Voight]

Toews/Kane on pace for career years... Gustafsson breaking out with 43 points (on pace for 58, I expect him to settle around 50) DeBrincat also having a breakout year + in the top 10 for goals... Strome is just below PPG since the trade (thanks Chayka!) and the Blackhawks are 3 points out of the Wild Card spot 7-3 in their last 10 after being written off.

I have been told by more than a few friends that Chicago was done and would need to rebuild... despite our two key forwards just turning 30 last year (pretty crazy they won 3 cups before 27). Things are looking good for the future.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Who's the Championship of PA tonight? I am.

 

[The Macho King]

Toews/Kane on pace for career years... Gustafsson breaking out with 43 points (on pace for 58, I expect him to settle around 50) DeBrincat also having a breakout year + in the top 10 for goals... Strome is just below PPG since the trade (thanks Chayka!) and the Blackhawks are 3 points out of the Wild Card spot 7-3 in their last 10 after being written off.

I have been told by more than a few friends that Chicago was done and would need to rebuild... despite our two key forwards just turning 30 last year (pretty crazy they won 3 cups before 27). Things are looking good for the future.

Odd brag when your team is under .500.