ATD Chat Thread XV

[BenchBrawl]

I predicted WSH in 5

As for the Smythe, probably Ovechkin was only 2nd, but I don't feel it's a massive robbery neither.Nothing like when Williams won it vs. Doughty.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wow, Kuzy got robbed. I don't even like the guy, but he had a simply outstanding playoff.

How could you argue for Crosby for the Smythe in years he didn't lead the playoffs in scoring and then say Kuzy was "robbed?"

 

[ImporterExporter]

Congrats to Washington and their fans. I called this back at the end of round 1 and before the Pens series got underway. I just saw "it" with the Caps. Wasn't their best roster but they just had the look. Nailed the 2 years the Pens won because of the same traits. Sometimes a team just comes together at the right moment and time.

As i said in the HoH thread, the Smythe wasn't bad and it wasn't great. Kuzy was absolutely the better player in the final 2 rounds but Ovechkin did enough and is the captain, heart and soul, to merit winning the Smythe. Very simliar to Sid in 16 who won despite being 3 points behind Kessel.

Sad to see Fleury implode like he did but I can't say i'm really THAT surprised. Not all of it was on him, but he went from legendary to very weak with the snap of your fingers.....that's how quickly things can change.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Congrats to Washington and their fans. I called this back at the end of round 1 and before the Pens series got underway. I just saw "it" with the Caps. Wasn't their best roster but they just had the look. Nailed the 2 years the Pens won because of the same traits. Sometimes a team just comes together at the right moment and time.

As i said in the HoH thread, the Smythe wasn't bad and it wasn't great. Kuzy was absolutely the better player in the final 2 rounds but Ovechkin did enough and is the captain, heart and soul, to merit winning the Smythe. Very simliar to Sid in 16 who won despite being 3 points behind Kessel.

Sad to see Fleury implode like he did but I can't say i'm really THAT surprised. Not all of it was on him, but he went from legendary to very weak with the snap of your fingers.....that's how quickly things can change.

I think OV deserved it in the end, when the team needed him to get that goal he did it. I'm just so happy for him, I still can't quite believe I leave in a world where this happened never in a million years. After last year where the were loaded up and they failed, this team did it.

The look on OV's face with each goal and big save tells it all

How could you argue for Crosby for the Smythe in years he didn't lead the playoffs in scoring and then say Kuzy was "robbed?"

Agreed

 

[ResilientBeast]

Ovechkin is starting to really make a solid case for the greatest LW ever.

The one big thing Hull had on him was that cup

Bobby Hull
7 Rockets
3 Art Rosses
2 Harts
1 Stanley Cup
12 Post Season All Star Teams (10 1st, 2 2nd)

Alexander Ovechkin
7 Rockets
1 Art Ross
3 Harts
1 Stanley Cup
11 Post Season All Star Teams, not including this year and including the year he made both 1st and 2nd (7 1st, 4 2nd)

And this playoffs really showed his evolution as a player. Vegas had a breakaway and OV was the guy chasing him down and stopped the shot.

Ovechkin is one year younger than when Hull jumped to the WHA

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ovechkin is starting to really make a solid case for the greatest LW ever.

The one big thing Hull had on him was that cup

Bobby Hull
7 Rockets
3 Art Rosses
2 Harts
1 Stanley Cup
12 Post Season All Star Teams (10 1st, 2 2nd)

Alexander Ovechkin
7 Rockets
1 Art Ross
3 Harts
1 Stanley Cup
11 Post Season All Star Teams, not including this year and including the year he made both 1st and 2nd (7 1st, 4 2nd)

And this playoffs really showed his evolution as a player. Vegas had a breakaway and OV was the guy chasing him down and stopped the shot.

Ovechkin is one year younger than when Hull jumped to the WHA

Tougher era for Hull. Look at his competition at LW. I think it's important to remember context when looking at AS votes for example. I give Hull a slight advantage even though the postseason AS nods are even (or will be after this summer).

People seem to really ignore Hull's WHA stuff. I get that the WHA was nowhere near the overall league that the NHL was but it wasn't like there weren't NHL caliber players there. Hull's dominance there should count for at least something on his overall resume. Not much, but it's something IMO.

Hull has OV beat 3-1 in Art Ross's. Again, I'd say the depth of talent was greater during Hull's tenure.

OV edges Hull in Hart's. One of 8's was in the lockout shortened season and also came after Crosby got taken out by a slap shot by his own guy. It literally took the rest of the league an entire month to catch up to Sid in scoring and pass him in the final handful of games.

Both have a Cup now, but Hull has a bit more depth his his resume there. Led the playoffs in goal scoring 3 times. Points once.

I have Hull 5th all time in large part because of his dominance but also the top heavy talent that existed in the NHL and LW during his time. Sid's just outside the top 10. Ovechkin for me ends up in the 15-20 range right now. I think 8 is definitely ahead of Jagr and Lafleur. 3rd best W of all time as of now. Like Sid, I think most of the potential value for Ovechkin lays in postseason performances. Ovechkin now has a legit chance to become a top 10 player ever if he adds more to his playoff record.

Hull (5th overall)
Richard (8-10)
Ovechkin (15-20)
Lafleur/Jagr (20-25)

And FTR, I was VERY impressed with OV this year. I've long been a critic more or less because I didn't like his effort many years (think about last year and his abysmal performance in game 7 against Pittsburgh on Washington ice), and he was getting very one dimensional lately. But credit given where it's due. The guy stepped up and led his team on emotion and desire (and obviously production). It's what I've been waiting for from 8 for a long, long time. He earned the Cup and I respect the hell out of him for it. Even being a big time rival.

 

[ResilientBeast]

While I didn't say was better I was pretty careful to say "making his case" I thought he had a fringe one before this cup. But this season he's been far from one dimensional, on the offence end he has been very goal oriented but he's been playing solid defensive hockey while regaining that physical edge.

If he never won a cup I don't think Ovechkin would have a reasonable case, but now that he's done that I think he could do it.

On a slightly related note, image of the playoffs IMO. Ovechkin helping Backstrom hold the cup with his busted hand

 

[jarek]

So here's an interesting proposition for the Leafs: sign Tavares and trade Nylander+ for a top pair D. Possibly Doughty.. under normal circumstances Doughty should be untouchable, but given the Kings look headed for a rebuild, maybe a sign and trade can be had. Nylander, one of Dermott or Carrick and the Leafs' 1st round pick in 2019 should get it done. This team needs to start challenging for the cup within the next 3 years and Drew Doughty can help you do that for at least another 5 as a #1 D.

Hyman - Matthews - Marner
Marleau - Tavares - Brown
x - Kadri - Kapanen
x - x - x

Reilly - Doughty
Gardiner - x
x - Zaitsev

Andersen
x

That's the skeleton of a cup winning team IMO. Just need to fill some of those extra spots but it shouldn't be hard.

Duncan Keith may also be available if the Hawks think they're done as well.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Nylander would not get you Doughty

 

[Johnny Engine]

I mean, who knows with Doughty. If he's agitating to get out of LA after this year, the return would be disappointing for them, but who knows that, and who can count on that.

The bigger, more concrete problem with the plan above is that it's completely impossible under the cap. On Cap friendly, I made the suggested trade, signed Tavares to an extremely conservative 9M (he'll get more, but stay with me), extended Johnsson for a reasonable 1.5M, and filled the rest of the team with Marlies. The hit for that team was pennies under the cap, with no allowances for bonuses (and you'd want Matthews, Marner, Kapanen, Dermott to hit those, no?), and zero plan on how to resign Doughty and Gardiner (for $2M raises, in all likelihood) and Matthews and Marner (for way, way more than that.)

Now, it would help to be able to punt Martin or Zaitsev into the sun with no consequences, and Marleau won't be around forever, but you literally can't treat team building like a shopping trip.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm pretty sure I saw that Doughty was in talks for an extension anyway.

I doubt Tavares will end up in Toronto, I saw a report that the Penguins were going to pitch him (I'd hate that)

For some reason I think he's going to stay, but I want superteams in the NHL

 

[jarek]

I'm pretty sure I saw that Doughty was in talks for an extension anyway.

I doubt Tavares will end up in Toronto, I saw a report that the Penguins were going to pitch him (I'd hate that)

For some reason I think he's going to stay, but I want superteams in the NHL

I can't see Tavares staying in NYI but who knows?

The Penguins gunning for Tavares would leave very little room for them to do anything else. It would be a hella scary team to face though.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I can't see Tavares staying in NYI but who knows?

The Penguins gunning for Tavares would leave very little room for them to do anything else. It would be a hella scary team to face though.

Players just don't move to better situations in the NHL so unless it's clear I just assume they're staying

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pitt isn't signing Tavares. He's not going to accept a 3rd line role even IF the Pens could find enough room for him. And we still have Brassard under contract for 2019. The only way it works is moving Tavares to the wing which is a major risk. Plus you'd have to unload at least one big contract already on the roster.....

 

[ResilientBeast]

Besides my one off comment about Ovechkin and Hull. If the wingers list was redone today how much higher would Ovechkin go?

He's certainly ahead of Bossy, Cook and maybe Makarov.

What about Lafleur?

Lafleur burned very brightly for a short period of time, but was more legendary in the playoffs.

Lalfeur received all star considerations (Let's say top 3 loosely) in 6 seasons

Ovechkin has received all star consideration in twice as many years

At what point does the scale tip towards longevity at a very high level as opposed to greatest for half as long?

Personally I think he's passed Lafleur and has a shot at passing Jagr if he can keep racking up awards and all star nominations.

 

[Thenameless]

Pitt isn't signing Tavares. He's not going to accept a 3rd line role even IF the Pens could find enough room for him. And we still have Brassard under contract for 2019. The only way it works is moving Tavares to the wing which is a major risk. Plus you'd have to unload at least one big contract already on the roster.....

Tavares would not be the third line center on the Penguins. He'd be skating on either the first line or the second line, probably as a hybrid center/winger. Team Canada does this all the time (overloading with centers) and it works just fine. I'm sure Tavares would do a fine job in place of Hagelin, Hornqvist, Kuhnhackl, Rust, or Sheary. But, even if he were the third line center, that would make Pittsburgh all that much deadlier in a different way. They were awesome with Jordan Staal as their third line center in more of a checking role. Imagine rolling out a third line centered by Tavares? My goodness, opposing coaches and teams would have fits. If they sign Tavares this off-season, and don't lose too much else, they'd be the easy favourites (by far) for next year's Cup.

 

[Thenameless]

Personally I think he's passed Lafleur and has a shot at passing Jagr if he can keep racking up awards and all star nominations.

Yup, Lafleur is now surviving on an excellent peak both regular season and playoffs, which happened to coincide timewise. I like peak (and I like Lafleur in particular), so that's why I still have him higher than most. But, I'm not sure how well his resume can really stand up to that of Jagr or Ovechkin, once longevity is factored in. Career value would have to go to the other two. It depends what we're picking for I guess.

 

[jarek]

Well, apparently it actually happened. Didn't think it was possible. Losing JVR and Bozak basically pays for Tavares under the cap I would expect.

The Leafs have the new 3 headed monster down the middle.

Have to imagine this makes them cup favourites for next season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Tavares does not make them the Cup favorites. The Pens still own the best C depth with Sid, Malkin and Brassard.

The Leafs still have issues on D and in net, IMO. I'm not convinced that group is good enough to go all the way. And it guarantees Nylander or Marner is gone with Matthews still needing a long term deal which will fetch 10M per year easy.

With that being said I certainly think it puts Toronto in the top 3-4 teams heading into next year but not a clear favorite.

The pendulum has swung hard back to the Eastern Conference over the past 3 years though. Washington, Pitt, TB, Toronto are all loaded. I don't see much in the West to be fearful of. Chicago is done being a legit contender. St Louis is perennial choker. Vegas will absolutely come back to earth somehwhat. Winnipeg is up and coming but are unproven and just lost Staz. SJ are old and slow.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Nice to see a top player sign with his childhood team in his prime.Good for him.

I wish Toronto all the best, but they need a #1 defenseman and they need it soon.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Tavares does not make them the Cup favorites. The Pens still own the best C depth with Sid, Malkin and Brassard.

The Leafs still have issues on D and in net, IMO. I'm not convinced that group is good enough to go all the way. And it guarantees Nylander or Marner is gone with Matthews still needing a long term deal which will fetch 10M per year easy.

With that being said I certainly think it puts Toronto in the top 3-4 teams heading into next year but not a clear favorite.

The pendulum has swung hard back to the Eastern Conference over the past 3 years though. Washington, Pitt, TB, Toronto are all loaded. I don't see much in the West to be fearful of. Chicago is done being a legit contender. St Louis is perennial choker. Vegas will absolutely come back to earth somehwhat. Winnipeg is up and coming but are unproven and just lost Staz. SJ are old and slow.

Yeah Malkin and Crosby are better than Matthews and Tavares fairly easily and Brassard and Kadri are in the same class.

I've gone through the multiple stages of grief because I hate Toronto.

Happy with what PC has done today bringing Brodziak and Rieder back is some good depth pieces. Really need JP and Yamamoto to show up this season.

In the East I still like the Caps, Pens and Lightning more than the Leafs

 

[jarek]

Tavares does not make them the Cup favorites. The Pens still own the best C depth with Sid, Malkin and Brassard.

The Leafs still have issues on D and in net, IMO. I'm not convinced that group is good enough to go all the way. And it guarantees Nylander or Marner is gone with Matthews still needing a long term deal which will fetch 10M per year easy.

With that being said I certainly think it puts Toronto in the top 3-4 teams heading into next year but not a clear favorite.

The pendulum has swung hard back to the Eastern Conference over the past 3 years though. Washington, Pitt, TB, Toronto are all loaded. I don't see much in the West to be fearful of. Chicago is done being a legit contender. St Louis is perennial choker. Vegas will absolutely come back to earth somehwhat. Winnipeg is up and coming but are unproven and just lost Staz. SJ are old and slow.

You're crazy if you think Brassard and Kadri are in the same league. Kadri had 55 points to Brassard 46, and I would find it difficult to believe that Brassard played against better players than Kadri did last year.

Yeah Malkin and Crosby are better than Matthews and Tavares fairly easily and Brassard and Kadri are in the same class.

I've gone through the multiple stages of grief because I hate Toronto.

Happy with what PC has done today bringing Brodziak and Rieder back is some good depth pieces. Really need JP and Yamamoto to show up this season.

In the East I still like the Caps, Pens and Lightning more than the Leafs

"Easily?"

Bold statement to make. I can also say the wingers the TO centers will be playing with are easily better than anyone Sid or Malkin will be playing with next year it seems.

If you look at it just from the top-9, which team has a better group than the Leafs right now? The biggest issue the Leafs face right now is on D. I expect Nylander to get moved for a top pairing D at some point.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ugh Brassard played on the 3rd line in Pittsburgh playing 15 minutes a night. I'm shocked he didn't score more points

Crosby is a full notch better than JT, despite the age gap. JT has never been on Sid's level btw. You can look at points (JT's career best is 86), hardware (what hardware for JT?), whatever you like. The only 2 F's since Crosby has come into the league that have rivaled him are Ovechkin and McDavid. Period.

Malkin is a full notch better than Matthews, despite the age gap. Matthews has never been on Malkin's level. Remains to be seen if he ever reaches that MVP/Smythe tier. We should find out in the next 2-3 years though.

Outside of Toronto, 99% of people are not going to say JT/AM are better than 87 and 71. Not yet anyway. Until the latter two start showing legitimate signs of slowing down no other 1-2 punch will beat them. And again, nobody outside of Toronto is going to peg Kadri as miles better than Brassard.

I feel dirty even having to make the comparison. The Pens were beyond fortunate to have 2 generational C's available when they were sucking ass. No C on Toronto gets that label.

Not to mention the best winger on either team, right now, is the guy Toronto is paying 1.2M per to be a 90+ point player on Pitt. He enjoys hot dogs. He's done quite well for himself.

Toronto's problem is they have no #1 on the blue line and the depth there lacks considerably. Their goalie is not proven at all and I'm not convinced Babcock has learned to adapt his style to the current state of the league. Again, we'll find out. I've got nothing against Toronto. Could care less one way or the other. But simply getting JT doesn't make them the team to beat. They aren't battle tested, don't have a bonafide #1 like TB, Pitt and Washington do and I think all 3 of those teams have considerably better goalies, especially TB and Washington. And while Murray had a down regular season, he's already won a pair of Cups so he's not going to get fazed by the big stage.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Tavares is a truly great free agent pick up though.Toronto's group have less mileage than Pittsburgh's.

Edit: IMO, outside of the ageing Crosby and Malkin, and young phenom McDavid, Tavares is the best center in the world.What I focus on when thinking of him is his great playoff performance from 15-16.This is a guy who can take a team on his back and push it forward.

Now that he'll have adequate support, I'm intrigued to see what he will achieve.

 

[jarek]

Also keep in mind JT took mediocre players Bailey, Okposo, Paranteau, Lee and turned them into stars. If he plays with Marner.. look out.